terrible sin to drink!

Martinez · Dec 7, 2005

There are some Churches out there that say it is a terrible sin to drink.
not just getting drunk but any at all.
when confronted with verses in the Bible that Jesus made wine at the wedding and drank wine himself, they try and say that it was nonalchoholic wine.

has anyone got any thoughts on this!

PastorJason · Dec 7, 2005

Martinez said:
There are some Churches out there that say it is a terrible sin to drink.
not just getting drunk but any at all.
when confronted with verses in the Bible that Jesus made wine at the wedding and drank wine himself, they try and say that it was nonalchoholic wine.

has anyone got any thoughts on this!

I do. I think that the sin to be discussed here is drunkeness, which is the primary reason for temperance unions in the first place - they had issues with the social problems caused by overindulgence, and then focused in on the root problem, as they perceived it - the alcohol. Many (although not all) churches continue to hold those ideas of the temperance movement close at heart, but passages in the Bible regarding the sin of alcohol is against drunken behavior (which at best is amusing, at worst deadly).

For those who claim that wine in the NT was merely grape juice - that's poppycock. The only way to make grape juice storable was to ferment it - they had no pasteurization in those days and few ways to refrigerate. Wine was wine, pure and simple, although folks did usually water it down to cut its alcohol content, or to flavor unsavory water. Under normal circumstances, however, a lot of drinking water was unsafe to drink and so animal milks, wine, and beer became your choices. I'd love to see folks say beer was nonalcoholic back then too.

acius · Dec 7, 2005

Noah started a vineyard after the ark landed. He got drunk too. And if jesus just made grape juice that's not a miracle at all. That's called juice from concentrate and i do it all the time. The miracle was the instant fermentation.

I'm not a big fan of getting drunk, but I think god blessed us with beer and wine to be had in moderation. I have a quality microbrewed dark beer or glass of wine with my dinner almost every night. It soothes my nerves after a hard day, and doesn't poison you like the high fructose corn syrup, or the aspertame contained in most of today's soda or juice.

acius · Dec 7, 2005

Note the beer in my hand.

Also, my occupation is beer and wine distributor.

I may be slightly biased.

Blackguard_ · Dec 7, 2005

Jason about covered it, the Temperance movement has some really wacky ideas about wine in the Bible resulting in some odd things. For example, why was the host of the wedding post-miracle praiesed for bringing out the good stuff last as if grape-juice was ever a delicacy? And the reason stated why this is unusual implies it was becasue the guests are ussually asumed to be too drunk to notice the later wine is lower quality. And when St. Paul talks of abuses of the Eucharist, how do they explain people getting drunk off of grape-juice?

Thats another thing, the wacky ideas of the Temperance movement is why most Protestant churches use grape-juice for communion, which is a big problem if you think wine is necessary for the sacrement to be valid.

Abbadon · Dec 7, 2005

The temperance movement came out about the same time as the "free-love" movement.

I serious. Free-love started with Protestantism.

Here's another thread on it that just about covers everything: http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114780&page=1

Im_A · Dec 7, 2005

Martinez said:
There are some Churches out there that say it is a terrible sin to drink.
not just getting drunk but any at all.
when confronted with verses in the Bible that Jesus made wine at the wedding and drank wine himself, they try and say that it was nonalchoholic wine.

has anyone got any thoughts on this!

well, non-alcoholic wine has a slight degree of alcohol in it. it's just not over the legal limit for an 18-20 year old to have. secondly, i suspect that wine then was stronger. for all we know, non-alcoholic wine is maybe the percentage of alcoholic cheap wine that we have today. and if Jesus would have turned water into grape juice, we would have known that.

secondly, i'm sitting here with my glass of chardonay and marlboro ultra lights cigs(still no progress on the quitting for those who have seen my prayer request or things in my posts. still working on that as we can tell). i guess i'm a heathen/pagan to some Christians.

Martinez · Dec 7, 2005

I just find it unbelievible that a church would try and cast someone as and evildoer just becuase they liked to drink sometimes( in moderation)

its really up there with the KJV is the only bible God endorses type of thinking.

thats the stuff of cults man!

ebia · Dec 8, 2005

Martinez said:
There are some Churches out there that say it is a terrible sin to drink.
not just getting drunk but any at all.
when confronted with verses in the Bible that Jesus made wine at the wedding and drank wine himself, they try and say that it was nonalchoholic wine.

has anyone got any thoughts on this!

Covered by everyone else, but just to emphasis:
you cannot produce non-alcholic grape juice without modern technology such as pasturisation (except for what you drink fresh during the grape harvest). Virtually as soon as you press the grapes they begin to ferment, and there is nothing anyone then could have done to stop it. The fermentations then would have probably been much more unreliable, so there would have been wine around that was relatively sweet and a bit lower in alchohol than now, but nowhere near alcohol free. Much of the wine consumed would have been mixed with water, as red wine has strong anti-bacterial properties and can make quite dangerous water drinkable (providing you don't mix it too weak).

Drinking water has been actively dangerous for much of recorded history in Europe and the middle east. Beer, wines, ciders, etc are much the safer drink.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · Dec 8, 2005

Jesus made wine at the wedding and drank wine himself said:
erm... non-alcoholic wine in NT earth? methinx it would have been called grape juice - if they had such a thing! wine was wine.

Tangnefedd · Dec 8, 2005

Jesus loved his wine so much he made it part of the sacrament. It doesn't suit some fundies to picture Jesus with a glass in one hand, so they try to pretend it was non alcoholic, YUCK, that stuff is revolting! Can you imagine how the wedding guests swould have reacted if they hadn't been given the real stuff?

Athene · Dec 8, 2005

*sigh* it's the non-alcoholic stuff for me till June, I'm expecting number 3 you see. It is revolting.

I could just do with a nice glass of red wine, a nice merlot mmmmmmmmmmmm.

Tangnefedd · Dec 8, 2005

Congratulations love, that is lovely. It is worth the abstinence as they don't think there is a safe level of alcohol during pregnancy. My youngest daughter is expecting son number two in February.

UberLutheran · Dec 8, 2005

Martinez said:
There are some Churches out there that say it is a terrible sin to drink.
not just getting drunk but any at all.
when confronted with verses in the Bible that Jesus made wine at the wedding and drank wine himself, they try and say that it was nonalchoholic wine.

has anyone got any thoughts on this!

Well, I guess I'll just have to have their glass of Merlot...

Athene · Dec 8, 2005

UberLutheran said:
Well, I guess I'll just have to have their glass of Merlot...

Hey, I want the Merlot!

Martinez · Dec 8, 2005

Well it looks like that they will having the fake stuff at the wedding feast when the groom comes back!

artybloke · Dec 9, 2005

Athene said:
Hey, I want the Merlot!

Me, I prefer a nice Gamey... or Pinot Noir...

Anyone seen the film Sideways?

madbear · Dec 9, 2005

I'm aware that some churches use non-alchoholic wine in the sacrements. I don't know how widespread this practice is. And, of course, some Christian movements repudiate alchohol completely -- the Salvation Army for example.

I wonder if it is actually a sin to use non-achoholic wine for the sacrements? If not, it should be

Blackguard_ · Dec 9, 2005

I'm aware that some churches use non-alchoholic wine in the sacrements. I don't know how widespread this practice is.

Most Protestants use grape-juice. In general Churches that don't believe the Real Presense use grape-juice, which is most of Protestantdom.

And, of course, some Christian movements repudiate alchohol completely -- the Salvation Army for example.

The Temperance Movement is why the use of grape-juice started in the first place and hatred of alcohol is probably why Mormon founder Joe Smith had his church use water.

QUOTE]I wonder if it is actually a sin to use non-achoholic wine for the sacrements? If not, it should be [/QUOTE]

I think it is. by changing the elements they are making it their supper and not the lords. They are making a mockery of it. It does not mater type of wine or unleavened bread is used, but it must be bread and wine. Jesus promised to be present in bread and wine and nothing else.

Part of the reason many churches see no problem changing the elements is that they do not see it as a sacrement, they see it as purely symbolic. So it does not matter what element is used if the symbolism remains. They also say the intent is more important than the elements used.

Even if changing the elements is not a sin, the churches that do this do not beleive in the Real Presence, so they are guilty of not discerning the body of Christ mentioned in 1 corinthinains 12.

Blackguard_ · Dec 9, 2005

Anyone seen the film Sideways?

Yes, it was like an episode of "Curb Your Enthuisiasm" without the humor but with a happy ending.

terrible sin to drink!

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