That’s neat! What material was that? Pastor Doug did seem a bit tired that day but I thought he did well too.
Thats awesome! Yes, we know you like referring to it, I guess it came in handy.Well you know how I like to refer to "the Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19" etc. When you see an SDA pastor doing it - it usually comes from me.
Thats awesome! Yes, we know you like referring to it, I guess it came in handy.
I’ll have to re-watch it just for that! Thanks for sharing.Yeah it is a show-stopper for the kind of objections Gregg was inclined to make.
Ok Let's start in Genesis - from some old notes -- just stick to Genesis--no other reference right now.
The first mention about the Sabbath can be found in Genesis:
Gen 2:1-3 "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."
I notice here a few facts:
1. Who rested on that first seventh day? Answer: God
2. Why did God rest on that day? Answer: Because He finished the work He had been doing.
3. Was there any special name given to that first seventh day? Answer: The Bible only refers to it as the seventh day. No mention is given to it as being the Sabbath.
4. Did Adam rest on that day? Answer: Unknown. The Bible does not specify one way or another that he did. He was created the day before, but nothing is said about his activities on that blessed day.
Please note something very particular. Every day of creation is followed by "there was evening, and there was morning" in Genesis. E.g.:
1. Gen 1:5: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day."
2. Gen 1:8: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day."
3. Gen 1:13: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day."
4. Gen 1:19: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day."
5. Gen 1:23: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day."
6. Gen 1:31: "And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day."
However, nowhere can this phrase be found attached to the seventh day. Nowhere does it say that there was evening, and there was morning-the seventh day!
What possible relevance can that have, you may ask. If no ending was given to the seventh day, could it be that it was meant that Adam and Eve would enjoy a perpetual rest in the garden of Eden? If you really think about it, they had no real work to perform. Except naming animals, perhaps: Gen 2:19-20 "Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field." Now naming animals would be interesting, but does not require any hard work!
The next time the Bible records any task given to Adam and Eve was after they had sinned. Only then did they face hard work. It was a consequence of sin, and as a result, Adam and Eve lost their restful state in the garden of Eden. Gen 3:17-19: "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
Now man had lost his innocence, his paradise, and he was going to experience hard work! His rest was gone. The blessing had turned into a curse!
It is also interesting to note that there is absolutely no reference in the Genesis story that states all mankind will keep the Sabbath. In fact, I cannot find any reference in the entire book of Genesis (which spans the first 1/3 of this earth's history!) any reference to humans keeping the seventh day as a day of rest.
Other institutions are mentioned as having been clearly established and followed in the Genesis account. Marriage is one of these: Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
This is food for thought. The Bible should be our only guide . . . Just stick to Genesis fright now--please do not jump ahead ; )
God resting on the seventh day was pointing forward to when God, as man, would rest in the tomb after completing His work of salvation. You are correct that God does not tire. God is spirit, tiredness pertains to the flesh.When Jesus rested after the creation it wasn't because He was tired.
The use of Sabbath to name the seventh day is due primarily to christianisation of those cultures. In almost all of those cultures the day following the seventh day is called Lord's day.If you were to take the time to examine and respond to the opening post you'd see that one of the ten reasons given for why I am a Sabbatarian is that many languages of the world use the word Sabbath as the designation for the seventh day. If the Sabbath was only for the Jews then this phenomena would not be embedded in so many cultures
Hi there,God resting on the seventh day was pointing forward to when God, as man, would rest in the tomb after completing His work of salvation. You are correct that God does not tire. God is spirit, tiredness pertains to the flesh.
Of course it didn't end there. God rose to life on the eighth day, an eternal day which is not followed by night, the "day that the Lord has made". The eighth day supersedes the seventh day as shown by circumcision occurring on the eighth day even if it fell on the Sabbath. This day is known in the Church as the Lord's day, "Kyriaki" in Greek.
The use of Sabbath to name the seventh day is due primarily to christianisation of those cultures. In almost all of those cultures the day following the seventh day is called Lord's day.
Hello Spark, welcome to the unending debate Sabbath and the Law forum.
All of Israel failed to observe the "ifs" in Is 58:13. How are you and all of the flock doing with those demands?
Paul even called the group of commands the Sabbath command was a part the ministry of death.
No wonder why Jesus said in Jn 15: 9-14 He kept the Father's commands, all of the 613 that pertained to Him, and asks us to keep the Royal Law of Love. New covenant Christians have been freed of all the ritual commands, so thankfully we don't have to worry about Is 58:13, and those "idle words" that were a continual gotcha.
Your welcome. We go way back in another forum.Hi Bob S,
Thanks for the welcome!
The fact is though, we ALL fall short.Did you know that:
Jesus says sin no more.
John says not to sin.
Paul says stop sinning.
Peter says stop sinning.
Sinners don't have to sin.
{Staff Edit} Turn the question I asked back at me without responding to my question. Well, I will answer, I am still a sinner, now how about you? Have you mastered keeping the Sabbath without sinning according to Is 58:13?How are you and all the flock doing with those demands? How do you suppose John, Paul and Peter did?
The 10 WERE 10 ways the Israelites could sin. The fact is none of the 10 WERE about love. The Israelites had to open the book of the Law to find many other ways they could sin. Even then I doubt if all the ways they could sin were mentioned.Indeed. The Ten Commandments were never a method of salvation. They tell us the right way to go. When we stray they condemn us as sinners and sin leads to death. Are you no longer a sinner? If you aren't then you don't need Jesus.
The 10 commandments were part of the Law given to one nation, Israel. God has never required Gentiles to observe a day, never, never.Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Your "i.e." is your opinion concerning "ten" as is all scripture in the New Testament that references the word commandments. Seems like that is adding to scripture. Had the writers meant ten commandments I am sure they would have put the ten there for us to discern.Romans 7:13
Did that which is good [i.e. the Ten Commandments], then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
Thank the Lord we are not under the Law.1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Without Jesus that is.James 1:15
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Yes, lets do. Gal3:23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.Without the Ten Commandments would you even know that you're a sinner? Let's see what Paul thinks:
Under the Royal Law of Love the Holy Spirit guides us as how to treat our fellow man. 2Cor3:6-11 tells us that Israel is now under the guidance of the Holy Spirit not the ministry of death, the 10 commandments.Romans 7:7
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
First of all the covenant had 613 laws not just 10. {Staff Edit} .......by propping the 10 up as being the all inclusive way we treat God and our fellow man. The greatest commandments in all of scripture are not part of the 10.Would you really like to insist that the only aspect of the Ten Commandment covenant which Paul is indicating identifies sin is the tenth one? Hardly. An appeal to one from the set of ten is an appeal to all of them.
Nowhere in the new covenant is 10 specified either, gut you take it upon yourself to add it to scripture. 613 could be wrong because they were counted by man, but I bet the number is very close, so what is the big issue with using it?It's always intriguing to me that the critics of the Sabbath commandment are so keenly aware of this 613 number. Why? Because nowhere is this number specified in the Bible.
Yep, the ten WERE specified to one nation only, Israel. They were some of the words of the Sinai covenant given to Israel at Sinai. They were not given to any other nation on Earth. I am not the one adding or subtracting from scripture spark. When one place laws that were given to only one nation on my back that person or belief system is/are in violationYou know what number is specified? Ten. The Ten Commandments are separate from the 603. The numeral ten restricts this set and God commands you not to add or subtract from what He says:
Great advice, It is one thing to tell that to others, it is another thing for the teller not to obey it too.Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
{Staff Edit} No one except one nation has ever been given the command to observe the ritual Sabbath. Try to tell the Jews that the Israelite Sabbath was not a ritual command.Those who try to rid themselves of the Sabbath command usually are doing both adding (i.e. 613 commands instead of Ten) or subtracting (i.e. attempting to forget the one command which says we are to remember. Ironic, right?). God doesn't allow for you to subtract from this unit of ten by trying to marginalize the Sabbath as a "ritual command." No matter how you wish to come at it with your "new math," it's still good old fashioned subtracting.
Seems like you are fixated on trying to tell us we New Covenant Christians are liars or sinners.Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
And you do not have the right to specify that the 10 are the specificationsThe Royal law of loving your neighbor is not left nebulous and undefined. The last six of the Ten Commandment covenant all provide specifications for how this love is to be manifested to your neighbor. You don't get to arbitrarily decide what's right for how you express love for your neighbor (i.e. moral relativism).
Hello Spark, welcome to the unending debate Sabbath and the Law forum.
All of Israel failed to observe the "ifs" in Is 58:13. How are you and all of the flock doing with those demands?. Paul even called the group of commands the Sabbath command was a part the ministry of death. No wonder why Jesus said in Jn 15: 9-14 He kept the Father's commands, all of the 613 that pertained to Him, and asks us to keep the Royal Law of Love. New covenant Christians have been freed of all the ritual commands, so thankfully we don't have to worry about Is 58:13, and those "idle words" that were a continual gotcha.
The fact is though, we ALL fall short.
{Staff Edit} Turn the question I asked back at me without responding to my question. Well, I will answer, I am still a sinner, now how about you? Have you mastered keeping the Sabbath without sinning according to Is 58:13?
The 10 WERE 10 ways the Israelites could sin. The fact is none of the 10 WERE about love. The Israelites had to open the book of the Law to find many other ways they could sin. Even then I doubt if all the ways they could sin were mentioned.
By the way, your prophet didn't agree with your analysis that the 10 were never a method of salvation. One of them, the Sabbath command, was singled out. If, under the new covenant, anyone who does not observe the Sabbath will loose/has lost their salvation. She took it upon herself to judge almost every adult human being that has ever taken a breath.
But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}
Of course she was/is referring to those who worship God on another day, especially Sunday.
Not "may" Spark, will or have fallen short. Of course we strive to not hurt others or ourselves, but the fact is if we could become perfect we wouldn't need Jesus now would we.Hi Bob S,
The fact is that even though you and I and everyone else may fall short, Jesus and His servants (John, Paul and Peter) all are in agreement that we should stop sinning.
Your statement makes me ill. You, of all people, should know better than to belittle others. No question should be answered in that fashion. Why would you feel you have to belittle others? I have a good idea.Yes, I turn it around such that you can see the silliness of your own question.
I do believe you have accused me of rejecting some scripture. Face the fact brother, the only way we will "look" perfect is by the covering of Jesus blood.Even should you falter at times that doesn't give you the authorization to reject God's admonition to stop sinning. If you fall off a horse should you stay off the horse? What if you fall off the horse 10 times? 100 times? 1000 times? Should you just give up? Maybe it's not the horse that's the problem, but us? Maybe we just don't know how to ride the horse? Maybe (switching to a biblical metaphor) Jesus Christ is not in us?
So, your contention is that Christ is not in me because I do not keep the Sabbath. It is outwardly true I do not keep the Israelite only Sabbath given only to Israel in the covenant at Sinai and exposed to the Israelites between the time of successfully crossing the Red Sea and standing at the foot of My Sinai. My contention is that where there is no law there is no sin. Your contention is that the Sabbath is written on our hearts. I completely reject that notion. If that notion were true people would be flocking to synagogues or churches that practice Sabbath observance. SDAs wouldn't have to spend countless millions of the flocks hard earned money trying to convince those attending SDA seminars that threaten the attendees that Christ cannot be in them unless they do what the SDA church deems as necessary, keeping a day Holy. They preach keeping a day which those preaching those things have never done.2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
If "Christ Jesus is in you" then you will be doing those things which are pleasing to Him. If He is not in you then of course you will be disobeying Him. So if you're doing as Paul indicates here in examining yourself "to see whether you are in the faith" and discover that your actions reveal that your faith is not real then you can know that Christ Jesus is NOT in you, and you have failed the test.
I am so sorry for your loss of time Spark. You should have learned by now you kant win em all. All that time spent with me when you could maybe have hooked someone else, too bad. All your statement proves is you are not as convincing as you might think you are.This is where I wish you hadn't told me who you were. I've invested so much time with you on this one issue yet you continue to make this same heretical assertion. How many times do you think a person needs to read the same Bible verses which counteract and contradict their personal opinion before it begins to sink in? I pray that number will be fulfilled today.
[*]Deuteronomy 6:1, 5-6
These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess ... Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.
[*]Deuteronomy 7:12
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.
[*]Deuteronomy 11:1
Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.
[*]Deuteronomy 19:9
because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today—to love the Lord your God and to walk always in obedience to him—then you are to set aside three more cities.
[*]Deuteronomy 30:16
For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
[*]Joshua 22:5
But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the Lord gave you: to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to keep his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
For whom are all those verses intended Spark? None of them would have told the Israelite that the ten commandments were about love. They were all about duty. It was there duty to care for their parents, keep Sabbath, not steel and etc.For someone to try to excise the love from the context of these verse is irrational and irresponsible. Love is inextricably tied to obedience. His covenant is called a "COVENANT OF LOVE." How can a loving God provide anything less than loving requirements of His creatures? The answer is: He CAN'T.
Read on my friend, Jn15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.Jesus is "the same yesterday, today and forever" and in John 14:15 He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
Oh yes, we have such desire to kill, steel, bear false witness, covet, ditch our parents, blaspheme God and the other myriads of sinful acts that we don't deserve breathing air. We who don't observe the defunct Israelite Sabbath are an abomination. What a terrible bunch of Christians we are. Is this wrong from what you have categorized us a being in quotes above?People who have such a strong desire to be free from the positive restrictions of God's "holy, righteous and true" law are tacitly admitting that their love for Jesus isn't valid. Obedience is the authentication of our love. If we choose to walk in disobedience to Him, then our actions overrule our words.
The following is correct intention? Well, it makes me sick at my stomach. That woman had absolutely no right to condemn anyone. God didn't even give the Sabbath to the remainder of the World. According to her and now you, all others will be lostIf you were to understand what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 13:5 about examining yourself to see whether you're in the faith you'd understand what you just quoted in its correct intention.
Are you quoting that for me and millions like me that have determined from scripture that keeping the now defunct Israelite Sabbath doesn't include anyone. Can you still see, have use of your hands and even your mouth?In Matthew 5:30 Jesus says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell" (Translation: Loss of salvation). Jesus isn't allowing for this embracing of sin while at the same time claiming to be saved. He very clearly indicates that it'd be better for you to cut off the part which causes you to sin than for your whole body to be "cast into hell." Furthermore, He also says the same thing about your eye: gouge it out and throw it away (c.f. v. 29)!
Some more "you" stuff. So lets use some more "you". Have you conquered sin? Have you been able to ever keep the Sabbath according to Is 58:13? Is you(r) giving lip service to "keeping" it enough to serve as being obedient?Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Here too we find that Paul is equating living according to the flesh with death (i.e. "you will die). It is only as we are living "by the Spirit" and have "put to death the misdeeds of the body" that we "will live."
Do you love Jesus? Is Christ Jesus in you? It is only in obedience that you can know the answer to these questions. Once saved, always saved tastes sweet to those who invest no time in understanding the Scriptures for themselves. It will ultimately be a bitter pill for those who choose to "keep on sinning that grace may abound."
Some more "you" stuff. So lets use some more "you". Have you conquered sin? Have you been able to ever keep the Sabbath according to Is 58:13? Is you(r) giving lip service to "keeping" it enough to serve as being obedient?
For whom are all those verses intended Spark? None of them would have told the Israelite that the ten commandments were about love. They were all about duty. It was there duty to care for their parents, keep Sabbath, not steel and etc.
I am not the one adding or subtracting from scripture spark.
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