Ten commandments valid or not. (2)

[capnator]

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[eoe]

fp!

 

[kw5kw]

I think that the one who is living with Christ, i.e.: saved and has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, want to keep doing the right things because they are at one with the LORD.

If you call that keeping the law or not, it's what living like a Christian should be.

A Christian should not:

1) have any other god... I know I don't.
2) have no images of god(s) in their house... I know I don't!
3) I refuse to say "Oh my God!" or anything else worse. I substitute for any foul language something like: "heckey dern", or "gosh".
4) I remember to worship the LORD every day, not just one day a week. For He made all days and I remember Him always.
5) I honor my parents more now than ever before.
6) I haven't ever murdered anyone.
7) I have broken this, as I was guilty of this before I found the LORD, but not afterwards.
8) I must admit that I've actually stolen some 'sticky notes' and ink pins from work, and I always give work more than I ever took.
9) I have never given false witness to anyone. If I told you so and so did something, then they did it.
and
10) I break this one daily, I do crave things I don't have, and I know that the LORD above has already forgiven me of my sins, but I still want that (fill in the blank) and I really want it.

But, I just call this trying to live like a Christian should.

I know so many "christians" [sic] that don't live like a Christian. They gossop; they lie, cheat and steal; they do everything but murder or rape someone and then they put down someone who they think is missin' up.

 

[gratefulgrace]

kw5kw you make a good point that our lives should line up with the what the word of God has to say about righteousness. However, we need to be careful in just using the outward measure of things to judge the Christian life. God works with us as a Father with his child and grace works in each life in a unique way. That is why God says we are not to judge. The Pharisees had a great outward show of righteousness but Jesus called them Whitewashed tombs full of dead mans bones which was a pretty stong put down to a Jew who prided himself in being "Clean".
Only the spirit of God can divide the thoughts and intents of the heart and the outward show. The spirit of God is the convincter not the ten commandments or other laws.

 

[BrightCandle]

I think that the one who is living with Christ, i.e.: saved and has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, want to keep doing the right things because they are at one with the LORD.

If you call that keeping the law or not, it's what living like a Christian should be.

4) I remember to worship the LORD every day, not just one day a week. For He made all days and I remember Him always.

God did not write the Ten Commandments with His own finger in stone, for you to change its meaning to fit your preferences. The fourth commandment says to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy", and not to do any secular work on that day. God only made one day "holy" and that was the 7th day. The other days were to used for work, including in the 1st day (Sunday).
Of course God made all the other days, but He only made one Sabbath day holy, and that was the 7th day.

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

God did not write the Ten Commandments with His own finger in stone, for you to change its meaning to fit your preferences.

God did not write Ten Commandments with his finger in stone, as i've said half a million times the Hebrew does not call them the Ten Commandments, it does not say Aseret Mitzvotim [Ten Commandments]. It does say Aseret Hadebarim [Ten Words]. So don't point the finger at brother [kw5kw ], when you yourself are changing meanings to fit your preferences and/or to safegaurd your organizational teachings. You have no scriptural support for Ten Commandments other then your english bible, the hebrew does not say Ten Commandments.. It shocks me how S.D.As love to attack Catholism and those churches that seem to hold on to some of the paganism that the Catholic church proports. Yet seldom do they ever consider that they themselves are sustaining in there theology tons of Catholic teachings.. The Ten Commandment theory came from Rome, anyone who knows hebrew knows that the Hebrew does not say Ten Commandments. Ask a Jew that speaks hebrew if Ten Comandments are evident in the scriptures where there translated as Ten Commandments if you don't believe me..

The fourth commandment says to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy", and not to do any secular work on that day. God only made one day "holy" and that was the 7th day. The other days were to used for work, including in the 1st day (Sunday).
Of course God made all the other days, but He only made one Sabbath day holy, and that was the 7th day.

Apart from the Shabbat, God made many other days holy aswell that are to be kept and celebrated like the Shabbat.. Sunday is not an issue, anyone can worship any day it pleases them. It's an S.D.A Myth that those who worship on Sunday are going to recieve the Mark of the beast, not scriptural...

 

[RonnyRulz]

First off, I have on idea why Christians even make a big deal out of the 10 commandments. There's more than just 10 commandments in the Old Testament.

Second, Jesus gave us 1 commandment that is all 10 of those wrapped up, plus every other commandment ever.

This ONE commandment sums up ALL the commandments AND the prophets.

The "10 commandments" are worthless when compared ot this 1 commandment. Christians are under only ONE commandment, and that commandment is greater than all hundreds and hundreds of Old Testament commandments combined times a million.

Jesus's 1 commandment > 10 Commandents + Other Commandments + A bunch of other stuff + A lot more stuff + more

> means "greater than"

"Love one another as I have loved you."

All other commandments are pointless compared to this superior, greater, far harder to fulfill and keep, commandment.
There is no "10 commandments" for Christians. There's only one commandment, and that commandment is the greatest commandment EVER. Love God and Love others.

One Commandment to rule them all,
One Commandment to find them,
One Commandment to bring them all,
And in the non-darkness bind them....


Also, good point, there's no such thing as "10 commandments" seeing as how, what you said, neither the Jews, nor the Bible count them in 10 specific segments. And besides, like I just said, there's not only no reason for a Christian to make a big deal of the "10 commandments" but even if there was a reason, THERE'S MORE THAN JUST 10 COMMANDMENTS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

 

[RonnyRulz]

Considering the Sabbath, I forgot where, but the New Testament says that every day is a sabbath day.

So yea.

 

[OObi]

That's what we disagree on. But that doesn't mean I don't love God

So how do you love God? You make up whatever it is that defines loving God, and then carry it out? If we go from the Biblical standpoint, loving God is obeying His commandments. We don't disagree on them, we disagree on whether or not we should obey them.

No, the mosaic law introduced a plethora of new rules and regulations, which Abraham never knew about. Abraham didn't have the law.

I've gone over this with you before. I think you just don't like the fact that Abraham had the law.

Genesis 26:4,5
4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5Because that Abraham obeyed[heard, understood, listened, gave heed] my voice, and kept my charge[guard, charge, function, obligation, service], my commandments[mitzvoh], my statutes[statute, ordinance, limit, enactment, something prescribed], and my laws[law, direction, instruction, Torah].

Abraham certainly kept the law. The Torah, the law of God, the law that is in Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, the law of God.

(word translations come from my spiffy new concordance that I got for my B-day today!)

I don't share that view of the bible. I hardly think God stopped talking to people personally, and especiall not after pentecost. Neither did he ever promise a bible, but a Spirit. If we fail to hear or recognize the Spirit, it's because we know him so poorly.

God has told me a lot of things in a lot of ways, but never anything about meat or fabrics.

You didn't answer the question. Has God spoke to you in an audiable voice or not? If not, then you are merely guessing what God has said? You are saying that whatever your doing is okay, 'cause there is no law. And then you continue to say that this is what God has told you. It is my opinion that when your spirit and your flesh agree you should pay close attention to what spirit you are listening to...

Love is patient, love is kind, etc.

I prefer to call him Father.

Love is patient and love is kind because God is patient and kind. If God says that eating pork is not loving Him, and wearing whatever fabric He chooses is loving Him, then that is love. Whether or not you recognize that, it is the case.

The law is pointing forward to Christ, it was a shadow of the things to come, according to many. And I agree. But if the law is a shadow of the real stuff, why hold on to the shadow? It's sort of like how people view the bible; the bible points to God, but people fix their eyes on the finger.

According to many, yes. According to the Bible, no. Scripture reference please. The law is not a shadow, at least not in the context you say it is.

Do you have to do something wrong for your father to be gracious to you?

YES!!!! How in the world cand God pardon us from wrong if there is no such thing as sin? If what you say is true, then unbelievers are in the same catagory as Christians. If there is no law, what is the difference between us and them?

Do the scriptures say so?

Yes. There is law of God, which is only one law. Then the Bible talks about other laws, such as traditions of men. Laws that are a ministry of death. Law of the Pharisees. So on. There are different laws talked about in the Bible, but there is only one law of God. The Torah.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that the new covenant isn't in effect yet, and that we are under the entire law. What then about offerings and such?

I don't know where I stand on the New Covenant being here yet. I have to study more. However, whether or not the New Covenant is here doesn't change the fact that the law is here. The New Covenant is a wedding covenant, a kettubah. It has nothing to do with changing God's law.

No, regulations aren't sin or records of sin. Neither are "ordinances".

Post 972...

 

[OObi]

It is just the same as the Judaizers saying to the Gentiles that to be more righteous with God they had to be circumcized and follow the Law, insisting that was still part of His plan for the Church. Pauls comeback to that in Ephesians was very strong. The eating of meat or vegetabes or pork or poultry is not the issue and we miss something so important when we make it a major thing. You can eat whatever your conscience allows, I can eat what ever mine allows.God is not concerned with eating and drinking but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost

That is not what the Judaizers said at all. They said you had to be circumcized to be saved. Paul said that if you weren't circumcized that you shouldn't even bother getting one, let alone having anything to do with salvation.

It doesn't matter how many times you sit there and try to tell me that you can eat whatever you want, it won't change what the Bible says. Provide some scripture, you won't find it.

I didn't condemn you. I was just pointing out an error in your theology. That is what this thread is entitled. If you think that is wrong, could you propose a better way? Or am I suppose to let my brothers drown in their sins?

 

[OObi]

I agree, the fact that i don't deny it's validity does not mean that i'm under it, it does not condemn me, it has no power over me, i'm dead to it, but it's still valid > Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


God would not remove the validy of a just, holy and good law.. The Law is established not removed...

Good Point. The law is no longer a schoolmaster. But it is still there, still valid.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Whether you feel you hear God speak to you in an audible voice or in your spirit it must line up with revealed revelation of scripture. Have you ever hear the term progressive revelation. I know it is not in the Bible but it means that now that God is speaking to us through His son we understand the previous sections of scripture only in the light of that Higher revelation. Hebrews talks a lot about that. Remember to read the highlighted verse in context of the entire 2 chapters which is about Law verses Grace. Better yet re read all of Galations.
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel–
Gal 1:7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up.
Gal 1:12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.
Gal 1:14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from birth* and called me by his grace, was pleased
Gal 1:16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,
Gal 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter* and stayed with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 I saw none of the other apostles–only James, the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
Gal 1:21 Later I went to Syria and Cilicia.
Gal 1:22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
Gal 1:23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”
Gal 1:24 And they praised God because of me.

Gal 2:1 Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also.
Gal 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.
Gal 2:3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek.
Gal 2:4 This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
Gal 2:5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
Gal 2:6 As for those who seemed to be important–whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance–those men added nothing to my message.
Gal 2:7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,* just as Peter had been to the Jews.*
Gal 2:8 For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.
Gal 2:9 James, Peter* and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
Gal 2:10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
Gal 2:12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
Gal 2:13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
Gal 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
Gal 2:15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’
Gal 2:16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Gal 2:17 “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!
Gal 2:18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.
Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”*

​

 

[OObi]

Not sure I follow you. I don't think anyone, saints or not, ever conquered sin with/by the law, but rather with/by the power of God.

What about Jesus? I'm not sure, I'm asking, but He was man as well as God. He faced temptation, and He won. He beat satan, and since He was sinless, He did not need any pardon from God. Did He not use the law?

What is the law written on our hearts?

BTW, these are honest questions, not challenges

I don't know about that either. In Jeremiah 33, it says that the New Covenant will be the law written on our hearts. But it also says that everyone will know God. So, I don't know about the law written on our heart issue either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by minus208
Jesus was the law himself made flesh

No, Jesus was love made flesh.

He was both made flesh. The law of God is all about love. We couldn't get that right though, so God sent an example. Yeshua was our example, our picture of how to live the law. The law of love.

No, I don't know what you mean.

Galatians 4:4

 

[RonnyRulz]

I'm not one to just jump into a debate, I usually just want to state my view and disappear, but I want to defend someone.

If we go from the Biblical standpoint, loving God is obeying His commandments.

We must understand differently. I understand this:

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.​

I don't understand this though: "We love because we obey His commandments."​

Although Jesus does say in John 14:15​

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."​

But right after that Jesus said this in John 15:12​

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."​

If you want to get into semantics, then this means nobody truly loves God. You can't claim to love Jesus, I can't, nobody can. If Jesus said "If you love me, you will love each other as I have loved you." then we all justt lose. To love each other as much as Jesus loves? That's insane! Jesus has given me a lot of His Love for others, but I do not even come close to grasping His Love for others. To judge someone else if they "love God or not" is to also be judged yourself. If you say "So how do you love God?" then you are putting judgement on yourself and I can ask EXACTLY the same question to you. So how do you love God? You don't do what He commands either.​

But that's just theology, semantics, man's stuff. I for one love God and it shows in my life. Yet, I don't, nor am I close to, loving others as Jesus loves them. I don't follow his command. Who does? And why do you say, "So how do you love God?" ​

Jesus gave us one commandment: Love.​

Is it a sin to steal?
To lie?
To murder?
To dishonor your father and mother?
To commit adultery?​

Only if it is not in love. Murder is never in love, adultery is never in love. The meaning of the ten commandments is what God cared about when he gave them to Moses. He didn't care that people lied, murdered, comitted adultery, he cared about people breaking the one and only commandment: love. He cared about people lying instead of loving, murdering instead of loving, adultery instead of loving. He cared about the heart more than the action. It's a sin to do something outside of love. To not love.​

From my viewpoint, you two are debating what God's commandments are.​

Love is God. God is Love. To do an action in Love is to do an action in God. To do something outside of Love is to do something outside of God. Seeing as how only God is good, only Love is good. If it's without Love, it's sin. If it's with Love, it's good.​

To lie while remaining in Love? Not a sin.
To lie while being outside of Love? Sin.​

What commandment do you break when you break the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness?"
Is it the 9th commandment you break? NOPE! It's the one and only commandment you break: Love each other with perfect true love.​

If you murder, are you breaking the 6th commandment? Nope. You are breaking the one and only commandment: Love each other with God's Love.​

If you break any commandment, what commandment are you breaking? The one and only commandment: Love.​

Love sums up the law and the prophets.(Matthew 7:12)​

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.​

Why are you guilt of breaking ALL the law if you break just one point? Because ALL the law is wrapped up into one thing. All the law is the same thing. "Do not murder, do not lie, do not commit adultery" it's all the same meaning: LOVE EACH OTHER. Do not hate. Do not step outside of Love.​

You break the law to not murder and you break the command to love.​

You break the law to not commit adultery and you break the command to love.​

You didn't answer the question. Has God spoke to you in an audiable voice or not? If not, then you are merely guessing what God has said?​

He is as much guessing what God said than you are. Be careful not to think that you aren't guessing if he is guessing. Who makes you different from anyone else? ​

YES!!!! How in the world cand God pardon us from wrong if there is no such thing as sin? If what you say is true, then unbelievers are in the same catagory as Christians. If there is no law, what is the difference between us and them?

​

You got that right. Surely sure! The law is still there (not a jot or tittle will fade away before the end). The other guy is close though because the law is blotted out, canceled, eliminated by the Blood of Jesus. It is still there to judge those without Christ, but WITH Christ, the law is blotted out and as if completely destroyed. It's not destroyed, as I said, for those who don't get it blotted out by His Blood, but for those who are covered in His Blood, it is the same as if it was destroyed. Blotted out. Canceled. Nailed to the cross.​

Yes. There is law of God, which is only one law.

​

Wait, so what are you arguing about? If you admit there's onyl one law and he does too, why are you debating? I think I'm officially confused now... and I feel like I just typed all of that for something you already knew. DOH!???? Well then, I guess you already know there's only one law, so I guess I'm on your side then, LOL. I'm CONFUSED!​

So like...did I just waste my time telling someone something they already know? LOL. Doh....​

You know I, just like everyone else, probably don't even know what we are talking about. LOL. I bet the truth about the law, etc. etc. is so far above us that no one understands it and we're all fools to try and think we know, even if taught a lot of stuff from God, I'm sure we're still lacking or misunderstanding.​

AH!!! I hate the "law" and the old testament. It's so perplexing that only God can allow you to understand it, and I don't think He's going to give us 100% of the knowledge before we make it to Heaven.​

​

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

First off, I have on idea why Christians even make a big deal out of the 10 commandments. There's more than just 10 commandments in the Old Testament.

Hi Ronny. Obviously yes, the so called Ten Commandments are not Ten Commandments at all, there is a minimum of 14 Commandments there, and a miximum of 17 to 22 Commandments or so.. The hebrew does not call them Ten Commandments, in English it's better rendered as the Decoulge or the Ten Words not Ten Commandments..

Second, Jesus gave us 1 commandment that is all 10 of those wrapped up, plus every other commandment ever.

Yeshua did not wrap 10 Commands, he wrapped up the whole law with those Two Commands.. But where do you think Yeshua gets this from? From the Law ofcourse....

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge thyself, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am Jehovah.

Deut. 6:5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.

This are not new Commandments at all, remember that Yeshua was not carrying a New Testament bible under his arm like some may picture him, he use to quote from the Torah [5 books of Moshe] and the prophets..

Matt 22:36-40

36Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?

37And he said to him, Thou shalt love [the] Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy understanding.


38This is [the] great and first commandment.


39And [the] second is like it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


40 On these two commandments the whole law and the prophets hang.


Compare Yeshua's words with Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 and you will immediatly notice that he makes referance to something very old in the Law..

This ONE commandment sums up ALL the commandments AND the prophets.

Look at the above dear friend..

The "10 commandments" are worthless when compared ot this 1 commandment.

There are no Ten Commandments... As i've shown above Yeshua was quoting from the Law when he spoke of those two Commandments..

Christians are under only ONE commandment, and that commandment is greater than all hundreds and hundreds of Old Testament commandments combined times a million.

What one Commandment? Remember that Yeshua was asked which Commandment was the greatest in the Law? He answered by quoting Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 the Two Commandments that sum up the Whole law, this is nothing new, is actually something very old..

Jesus's 1 commandment > 10 Commandents + Other Commandments + A bunch of other stuff + A lot more stuff + more

> means "greater than"

"Love one another as I have loved you."

Again, more Old stuff from the Law..

All other commandments are pointless compared to this superior, greater, far harder to fulfill and keep, commandment.
There is no "10 commandments" for Christians. There's only one commandment, and that commandment is the greatest commandment EVER. Love God and Love others.

Love God and Love others is in the Law, and that is exactely what Yeshua was refering to as i've shown above...

Also, good point, there's no such thing as "10 commandments" seeing as how, what you said, neither the Jews, nor the Bible count them in 10 specific segments. And besides, like I just said, there's not only no reason for a Christian to make a big deal of the "10 commandments" but even if there was a reason, THERE'S MORE THAN JUST 10 COMMANDMENTS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Correct, they are wrongly called Ten Commandments..

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

You got that right. Surely sure! The law is still there (not a jot or tittle will fade away before the end).

He's right..

The other guy is close though because the law is blotted out, canceled, eliminated by the Blood of Jesus. It is still there to judge those without Christ, but WITH Christ, the law is blotted out and as if completely destroyed. It's not destroyed, as I said, for those who don't get it blotted out by His Blood, but for those who are covered in His Blood, it is the same as if it was destroyed. Blotted out. Canceled. Nailed to the cross.

No, that is not what the greek says... What was canceled, eliminated, destroyed, blotted out, taken out of the middle and nailed to the cross was the "Cheirographon" which is a record of sin indebtness not the law... That written record of sin that served as a accusing witness against us was take out of the middle and nailed to the cross of calvary...

 

[YeshuamySalvation]

Considering the Sabbath, I forgot where, but the New Testament says that every day is a sabbath day.

So yea.

The bible does not say that everyday is a day of rest, if the New Testament said that everyday was a "Shabbat" that means you would have to rest everyday and cease from working forever...

 

[holo]

So how do you love God? You make up whatever it is that defines loving God, and then carry it out? If we go from the Biblical standpoint, loving God is obeying His commandments. We don't disagree on them, we disagree on whether or not we should obey them.

I love God by loving myself and others. I can't offer God anything. I'm a man, what could I give God? I love him though, and he knows it.

"Good religion is to take care of widows" etc.

I've gone over this with you before. I think you just don't like the fact that Abraham had the law.

Since Moses came after Abraham, Abraham obviously didn't have the mosaic law.

You didn't answer the question. Has God spoke to you in an audiable voice or not?

No, has he to you?

If not, then you are merely guessing what God has said? You are saying that whatever your doing is okay, 'cause there is no law. And then you continue to say that this is what God has told you. It is my opinion that when your spirit and your flesh agree you should pay close attention to what spirit you are listening to...

And what about you. Doesn't your flesh just love to elevate itself over others by keeping commandments? Legalism satisfies the flesh.

I'm not guessing what God is saying, I'm open and listening for him. I'm not so narrowminded as to limit God's words to me to my own interpretation of scripture, and certainly not to somebody else's interpretation of scripture. God speaks in a number of ways, but you probably miss out on a whole lot of them because you mistake your intellectual interpretation of the bible for the voice of the Spirit.

Love is patient and love is kind because God is patient and kind. If God says that eating pork is not loving Him, and wearing whatever fabric He chooses is loving Him, then that is love. Whether or not you recognize that, it is the case.

God doesn't say that eating pork is not loving him. That doesn't make sense. God usually makes more sense than christians.

According to many, yes. According to the Bible, no. Scripture reference please. The law is not a shadow, at least not in the context you say it is.

Here's part of thye problem. You won't accept anything that conflicts with your interpretation of a variation of a translation of a version of the scriptures. It doesn't really matter what verse I refer to or not. You've decided to live according to the letter instead of the Spirit, even though the letter itself warns against it.

YES!!!! How in the world cand God pardon us from wrong if there is no such thing as sin? If what you say is true, then unbelievers are in the same catagory as Christians. If there is no law, what is the difference between us and them?

My parents have always been gracious to me, regardless of whether or not I've sinned. Surely, as the black sheep of the family, I've been forgiven more than the others. But we all have the same rights and privileges, just as the son and his prodigal brother.

You seem to limit grace to forgiveness. It's much much more. The difference between us and unbelievers is that we are born of God. New creatures. Don't scoff at that. Don't throw commandments at me as if I was wicked and ungodly.

Yes. There is law of God, which is only one law. Then the Bible talks about other laws, such as traditions of men. Laws that are a ministry of death. Law of the Pharisees. So on. There are different laws talked about in the Bible, but there is only one law of God. The Torah.

Could you give an example? Does Paul refer to different laws, for example? How do you figure? Did the jews really distinguish and relate to several laws?

When Paul wrote about the ministry of death, he said it was written in stone. A.k.a. the ten commandments.

I don't know where I stand on the New Covenant being here yet. I have to study more. However, whether or not the New Covenant is here doesn't change the fact that the law is here. The New Covenant is a wedding covenant, a kettubah. It has nothing to do with changing God's law.

But Paul talks about a "necessary change of the law".

Christ said "this is the new covenant in my blood". It is here. The old covenant was made with Israel, there's a sharp distinction between jew and gentile in the OT. But of course, if you don't know which covenant you are under, no wonder you promote a bastardized mix of the two.

 

[holo]

What about Jesus? I'm not sure, I'm asking, but He was man as well as God. He faced temptation, and He won. He beat satan, and since He was sinless, He did not need any pardon from God. Did He not use the law?

Jesus is righteous by nature. He didn't become righteous by keeping the law.

The believer is also sinless by nature, having the righteousness of Christ.

He was both made flesh. The law of God is all about love. We couldn't get that right though, so God sent an example. Yeshua was our example, our picture of how to live the law. The law of love.

Jesus was sent only to the jews, and he never told gentiles to become jews. You say God gave the law and it didn't work, so he gave us even more law. But that's directly contrary to the gospel. The gospel is that God gave us GRACE. I'm beginning to think you've never actually heard the gospel, you've just joined a christian religion. You're doing the exact same thing with Jesus as the pharisees did with the law. And that's why you look for rules to tell you how to love God - because you don't love him. You can't love him, because you don't know that he loved you first. It's just a religious theory. No offense.

God wanted to justify us, not judge us!

 

[OObi]

I love God by loving myself and others. I can't offer God anything. I'm a man, what could I give God? I love him though, and he knows it.

So how do you love yourself and others?

Since Moses came after Abraham, Abraham obviously didn't have the mosaic law.

Psssst... (don't tell anyone... Devine intervention...)

No, has he to you?

No, He hasn't. And that's what I'm trying to point out here. I'm getting my stuff from the Bible, and you were explaining (not that you don't get your stuff from the Bible, you have some good points) that God has given you 'messages' or something to that effect. I was just saying it'd be safer to go with what was infallible, the Bible. The Holy Spirit is infallible as well, however our mind is carnal and our heart is deceitful. So, we might hink we are listening to the Holy Spirit, when we really are listening to ourselves. That's why it's safer to go with the Bible on "controversial" issues.

God doesn't say that eating pork is not loving him. That doesn't make sense. God usually makes more sense than christians.

Granted God is not the author of confusoin, He is still higher then us, He thinks higher then us as you pointed out.

It is in fact love. "Don't eat unclean animals" was His command, "obey My commands" was His defenition of love. If you put two and two together here...

Here's part of thye problem. You won't accept anything that conflicts with your interpretation of a variation of a translation of a version of the scriptures. It doesn't really matter what verse I refer to or not. You've decided to live according to the letter instead of the Spirit, even though the letter itself warns against it.

I certainly do not live by the letter! I played football games on Sabbath. They would usually drag on into the night, which was the Biblical Sabbath. And the only days games would be on were the Sabbath. God won't strike me down for attending a football game.

I have several Messianic friends who either work, or have husbands that work on the Sabbath. I don't condemn them. Do I think they should go out of their way to find a different job? Yes... but do I think that they should quit their job immediately before they find a replacement or get a schedule change? No... God won't kill them for providing for their families.

I live by the Spirit of the law. I am not a legalist in the Biblical sense. I have my faults, and I am a sinner, but so is everyone. Does that justify my sin, no. But pointing out that I sin does not change the fact that this is what the Bible says.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I am an arogant, self-righteous, Pharisee. That same logic could be pointed back at you. All it means is that I find flaw in your theology. Believe me, I have no intentions on living a lie. Every proof, verse, whatever you've shown I've gone over before with other teachers and this is the conclusion I've drawn. (Okay, not every verse, but the general mass of it)

My parents have always been gracious to me, regardless of whether or not I've sinned. Surely, as the black sheep of the family, I've been forgiven more than the others. But we all have the same rights and privileges, just as the son and his prodigal brother

With your analogy, you have just refuted yourself. You parents forgave you of wrongdoing, more then your siblings. You are trying to say that there is no law, there is not sin, there is no wrong. If there is no wrong, there is no pardon from wrong.

When Paul wrote about the ministry of death, he said it was written in stone. A.k.a. the ten commandments.

No. The passage says that the "glory" of Moses' ministration of the law was to be done away, but not the law itself. Read the whole passage of 2 Corinthians 3:3-9 again, carefully. The subject is not the doing away with the law or its establishment, but rather, the change of location of the law from "tables of stone" to the "tables of the heart." Under Moses' ministration the law was on stones. Under the Holy Spirit's ministration, through Christ, the law is written upon the heart (Hebrews 8:10). Christ's ministration of the law is effective because He transfers the law to the heart of the believer (Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26). Then keeping the law becomes a delight and a joyful way of living because the Christian has true love for both God and man.

But of course, if you don't know which covenant you are under, no wonder you promote a bastardized mix of the two.

Nah, doesn't matter. The New Covenant doesn't destroy the law anyway, they're the same on that issue, there is no mixing.

Jesus is righteous by nature. He didn't become righteous by keeping the law.

The believer is also sinless by nature, having the righteousness of Christ.

Then how do you become righteous?

I don't agree. We are sinners. There are many verses that state that, I don't need to post them.

You say God gave the law and it didn't work, so he gave us even more law.

No, I said God gave us the law and we didn't work. So God sent us a how-to guide.