Temporal Salvation?

[TibiasDad]

I believe in order to preserve the truths and values of Scripture, the primary goal of Biblical hermeneutics is to maintain agreement among all passages, otherwise there will only be confusion, which is what many if not most in the Church have been experiencing for the last one and a half centuries, and I think this will continue so until the Lord's arrival.

Of course there needs to be unity throughout the scriptures. No one is arguing against this. The question is, however, what the various passages mean within themselves. The Arminian view seeks, and I believe finds, harmony throughout the scriptures.
My objections to your assertions is precisely because it creates confusion as to what "believe" means in any given situation. It seems to me, that the Reformed position makes certainty about salvation a logical quandary, because it asserts no absolute certainty until the culmination of all things and/or death! So the security of the believer is based, almost entirely, on an almost retrospective point of view that says we know we are secure because we have persevered and have arrived. Prior to that point, we are not certain of anything because we yet may be shown to not have real "saving faith".

Doug

 

[WordSword]

The question is, however, what the various passages mean within themselves. The Arminian view seeks, and I believe finds, harmony throughout the scriptures.

It's my view that Arminianism and Calvanism do clash concerning a couple doctrines, but for the most part of their teachings, they are worlds ahead of most layman-type of those who study Scripture.

My objections to your assertions is precisely because it creates confusion as to what "believe" means in any given situation.

It's certain that one can think they truly believe but God will not allow them to be ignorant of it long, because "your sin will surly find you out" (Num 32:23) - Gill: "fly in their faces, accuse them in their consciences, charge and load them with guilt."

So the security of the believer is based, almost entirely, on an almost retrospective point of view that says we know we are secure because we have persevered and have arrived. Prior to that point, we are not certain of anything because we yet may be shown to not have real "saving faith"

Assurance cannot effect perseverance, because I think perseverance just confirms one is assured.

 

[TibiasDad]

It's my view that Arminianism and Calvanism do clash concerning a couple doctrines

That is an understatement!

Doug

 

[WordSword]

That is an understatement!

Fortunately no theologians differ on salvific doctrine (teachings related to receiving salvation), so their growth doctrines is where they differ, which are teachings that do not effect how to receive salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's okay, but I think you may have misunderstood that I'm a believer that knows faith and salvation are permanent, and thanks for also supporting it.

Hi WordSword,

My bad. I must have had a senior moment. My comment was for another poster. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[WordSword]

Hi WordSword,

My bad. I must have had a senior moment. My comment was for another poster. Sorry for the confusion.

Good to go! God bless the Fam!

 

[TibiasDad]

Fortunately no theologians differ on salvific doctrine (teachings related to receiving salvation), so their growth doctrines is where they differ, which are teachings that do not effect how to receive salvation.

I beg to differ! There is a huge difference between monergism and synergism, a huge difference between unconditional and conditional election, between limited and unlimited atonement, between irresistible and resistible grace, and between unconditional and conditional security!
We wouldn't have discussion forums on soteriology if we had no differences on salvific issues! Indeed, all orthodox evangelical theologies believe in saved by grace through faith, but the process of how that happens is a great gulf fixed!

Doug

 

[GDL]

The Holy Spirit.

Each believer has the power of the Holy Spirit to be able to live according to the Spirit rather than live according to the flesh.

OK. But are we Children of God the moment we believe or is Jesus saying something else here?

 

[GDL]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9



And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32



Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8





JLB

Not certain what you're telling me here in relation to the question you asked re when a person is born again. When we obey Him?

 

[WordSword]

I beg to differ! There is a huge difference between monergism and synergism, a huge difference between unconditional and conditional election, between limited and unlimited atonement, between irresistible and resistible grace, and between unconditional and conditional security!

I see these doctrines growth related, not doctrines that have to do with receiving salvation. How one determines any of these only expresses how one might think one comes to faith (point of salvation), which is what one is saved "through" (Eph 2:8).

Salvation isn't determined in how we think God brings us to faith, but that He does bring us to faith.
How one comes to faith is significant but not as significant as the fact that one come to faith (whether by Him choosing who will believe or by Him knowing who will choose to believe). These are not related to having faith but related to how one has faith. It's the fact of having faith in Christ that saves, and those who are truly saved will unavoidably show it in their love (obedience) to one another.

 

[TibiasDad]

I see these doctrines growth related, not doctrines that have to do with receiving salvation. How one determines any of these only expresses how one might think one comes to faith (point of salvation), which is what one is saved "through" (Eph 2:8).

Salvation isn't determined in how we think God brings us to faith, but that He does bring us to faith.
How one comes to faith is significant but not as significant as the fact that one come to faith (whether by Him choosing who will believe or by Him knowing who will choose to believe). These are not related to having faith but related to how one has faith. It's the fact of having faith in Christ that saves, and those who are truly saved will unavoidably show it in their love (obedience) to one another.

But the point is that these, the ULI of TULIP, are all all relative to salvation itself, not the growth process after the fact, and not even the P is really about growth in Christ, but merely a logical conclusion of the first four points that ensures faith is victorious in the end! There is nothing in Calvinistic soteriology that is related to growth after believing. It is about A) Our need of being saved, Total Depravity, B) How God actually saves anyone, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and C) the guarantee of ultimate success, Perseverance of the saints.

I have never met a Calvinist that said these are growth issues.

Doug

 

[GDL]

Hi and God's blessings to you Brother! It's common knowledge among nearly all within the Bible commentator community that Literalism (taking words for exactly how they read) renders inconsistent parallelism (hermetical agreement) when attempting to comprehend correct thought concerning much of the NT growth doctrines of Scripture (salvific doctrine is clear enough as to avoid difficult comprehension on what salvation is and how to obtain it).

Don't think I'm going to get into a Soteriology discussion again, but there is obviously still disagreement over salvific doctrine, especially concerning the full scope of Biblical Salvation and what's involved in it.

Also, I see the jury still being out in regards to permanent belief, and also re: other factors re: Biblical Belief.

Finally, "common knowledge among nearly all..." is the type of statement that typically raises red flags in discussions where alternative views are being discussed.

 

[WordSword]

But the point is that these, the ULI of TULIP, are all all relative to salvation itself, not the growth process after the fact, and not even the P is really about growth in Christ, but merely a logical conclusion of the first four points that ensures faith is victorious in the end! There is nothing in Calvinistic soteriology that is related to growth after believing. It is about A) Our need of being saved, Total Depravity, B) How God actually saves anyone, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and C) the guarantee of ultimate success, Perseverance of the saints.

I have never met a Calvinist that said these are growth issues.

Doug

I suppose what I'm trying to share is difficult to explain, but simply put, receiving salvation has only to do with receiving faith. Receiving faith, which all must do, is how one receives salvation ("by grace, through believing").

 

[WordSword]

Don't think I'm going to get into a Soteriology discussion again, but there is obviously still disagreement over salvific doctrine, especially concerning the full scope of Biblical Salvation and what's involved in it.

Also, I see the jury still being out in regards to permanent belief, and also re: other factors re: Biblical Belief.

Finally, "common knowledge among nearly all..." is the type of statement that typically raises red flags in discussions where alternative views are being discussed.

Thanks, but not sure what to reply here yet.

 

[GDL]

Thanks, but not sure what to reply here yet.

No need. Just some observations while watching you & Doug discuss.

 

[GDL]

I suppose what I'm trying to share is difficult to explain, but simply put, receiving salvation has only to do with receiving faith. Receiving faith, which all must do, is how one receives salvation ("by grace, through believing").

Do have question here. "Receiving faith" - Scripture reference?

 

[WordSword]

No need. Just some observations while watching you & Doug discuss.

I see what you mean. God bless!

 

[JLB777]

OK. But are we Children of God the moment we believe or is Jesus saying something else here?

I agree, we are saved when we believe, however it is the way Jesus means believe, not necessarily our post modern definition of believe.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

I said this:
" We HAVE eternal life because Jesus GIVES believers eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 10:28.

But let's not kid ourselves, ok? Jesus also said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

And we all know from your many posts that you teach that those who have been given eternal life CAN perish.

Either you don't understand the difference between "shall never" and "can", or you do but you just don't believe His words."

No, you are quite mixed up, though. You have clearly indicated that those who have been given eternal life CAN perish, which is just another way of saying that salvation can be lost. Yet Jesus taught the exact opposite of your view.

Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Only those who abide in Christ have eternal life

This is what you cannot prove from Scripture. In fact, "abiding in Christ" is for bearing fruit, not getting or maintaining salvation. Just read John 15:1-7. It's all very clear.


You are guilty of projection. What you charge others, you are the one guilty of.


Inheriting eternal life is a reference to reward in eternity. But your theology has no place for rewards in heaven at all. In spite of the overwhelming evidence of reward for obedience throughout the Bible.


See? Even you agree with me. I've highlighted your own words that fully support what I claim about inheriting eternal life.

The last 4 words are ignored, since you can't find any evidence for them from Scripture.

Those believers who "have followed the Lord, faithfully, and not fallen away from Him, have not deserted Him in time of persecution" WILL absolutely receive eternal reward.

But eternal reward isn't related to "to save their life" in any way.


Except Jesus said nothing about your fantasy idea of "temporary salvation". There is no such thing in Scripture. I keep asking for such verses, and you keep failing to comply.


Sure. John 15:1-7 is about "bearing fruit", as I have just pointed out. Not getting or keeping salvation. Why you keep making that mistake is a wonder.


Bingo! Thanks for agreeing.


Quite a twisted view of Scripture.

In fact, those who "have believed" (note the tense; aorist=past), ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit that GUARANTEES the inheritance of the believer as God's possession for the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

These verses directly support and say what I claim. Unlike your claims.


No, you have the burden to prove that a believer who is sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption CAN BE UNSEALED.

So, before you try to present any more of your 'claims', where is the verse that teaches that sealed believers can become unsealed?


Nope. Doesn't say anything about any risk of being unsealed.

So, UNTIL you find any verse that specifically teaches that believers can become unsealed, you have no point.

What God seals CANNOT be unsealed.

Now, the ONLY WAY to refute my statement here is to find ANY verse that specifically says that the believer sealed with the Holy Spirit can be UNSEALED.

I know there aren't any such verses, but what verse do you think teaches such an idea?[/QUOTE]


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


This is the end of your OSAS narrative.





JLB

 

[JLB777]

There is only a single time when one is saved, which is at the time of coming to faith in the above statement. If redemption is not obtained in this life it can never be obtained; and one is redeemed fully, as salvation doesn't admit in degrees. We are not redeemed any more in heaven than we are now, with the exception of the body.

As long as we continue in the faith, we continue in Christ.


And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

Those who depart from the faith, are no longer reconciled to Christ.



JLB