Temporal Salvation?

[FreeGrace2]

NKJ John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

Discussions re: the present tense, or any tense, are not meaningless. These tenses can be interpreted in different ways and there are many different uses of the present tense to chose as an interpreter. The NKJ just uses a simple translation of the present tense “hears” & “believes.” The YLT chose to translate these words as being continuous.

What counts is the actual Greek tense. Now how various translators use them.

There’s nothing here that says that anything happens the “moment” one hears & believes.

Yes there certainly is. Those who hears and believes is a present tense action. And the verse says quite clearly that they HAVE eternal life. Another present tense action.

This proves that the MOMENT one believes they possess eternal life.

Also, the perfect tense “passed from death to life” does not state that this condition does or does not last forever.

Here's the kicker. Where is any verse that says that one who has "passed from death to life" can pass back over to death? Hmm?

In fact, if words mean anything, then eternal life is life that cannot perish. That should resolve every debate. But, unfortunately doesn't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, this is the most logical point of reference. What I find interesting, is that the FG stance assumes that all sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, but Peter only refers to past sins specifically.

It should be clear from the context what Peter was referring to. At any given moment, all sins that the believer has committed are past sins. No believer knows every sin they WILL commit. Of course, they would know about the ones they are planning.

He doesn't use all inclusive language like "all your sins" , so if Peter actually believed that all sin past, present, and future all forgiven, why only mention past sins?
Doug

Let's look at the verse:
2 Pet 1:9 - But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

v.1-8 give us the context for v.9. So v.9 tells us that the believer who doesn't have the qualities that Peter lists before v.9 has forgotten that they have been cleansed of the sins they have already committed.

If you want an objective treatment about "all sins", go to Hebrews 7, 9, and 10. The author contrasts the annual sacrifice for sins committed with Christ's "once for all" sacrifice.

If Christ's death only covers the sins of the believer BEFORE he became a child of God, then who, pray tell, or what deals with all sins SINCE becoming a child of God?

Who takes care of that? The believer him/herself?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not going to have to respond at length, because GDL has already responded to the obvious lack of completeness of your research

This is hilarious! I gave you a complete study of the use of election/chosen and HOW it is meant in the Bible. And you call it "lack of competeness".

Your list didn't even indicate what the election/choice was for. And you think THAT was some kind of complete??

which, by the way, is another similarity of the way cult theology and apologetics are performed. Specifically, especially with the Jehovah's Witnesses, they choose a definition of a word that suits their agenda, and mandate that definition for most, if not all the uses by saying things like, "Election is NEVER about salvation."
Doug

Here's the deal, Doug. If election is EVER about salvation, it should rather easy to quote all of them. But I'll give you a pass and only request ONE verse that specifically states that God elects to salvation. Can you do it?

You failed to prove anything by your first list. Just a bunch of nouns and adjectives, which proved nothing.

My list were verbs that DO show purpose.

OK, just 1 verse. Can you do it?

 

[TibiasDad]

3) Did you see that BAGD sees argos in 1:8 meaning "useless" or "worthless" and that it picks up from one of the Greek manuscripts that this is the word found in James2:20 saying faith w/o works is argos (instead of dead)?

I did not recall the James reference from my first reading, but I thank you for pointing it out to me. Very interesting!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

This is hilarious! I gave you a complete study of the use of election/chosen and HOW it is meant in the Bible. And you call it "lack of competeness".

Your list didn't even indicate what the election/choice was for. And you think THAT was some kind of complete??


Here's the deal, Doug. If election is EVER about salvation, it should rather easy to quote all of them. But I'll give you a pass and only request ONE verse that specifically states that God elects to salvation. Can you do it?

You failed to prove anything by your first list. Just a bunch of nouns and adjectives, which proved nothing.

My list were verbs that DO show purpose.

OK, just 1 verse. Can you do it?

GDL, has done an excellent job, and I will sit back and enjoy watching your responses to his critique of your arguments. In posts #292-95 he gives excellent arguments for both the active, continuous reading of "believing" and the need of such to remain in Christ, and for the "the Elect" being a reference of chosen for salvation.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Let's look at the verse:
2 Pet 1:9 - But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

v.1-8 give us the context for v.9. So v.9 tells us that the believer who doesn't have the qualities that Peter lists before v.9 has forgotten that they have been cleansed of the sins they have already committed.

1) Where have I ever said anything different?

2) Thanks for telling me that verses 1-8 are the context of verse 9; an erudite observation that somehow never crossed my mind! Unbelievable!

3) Do you suppose that a "believer" in the state of verse 9 is able to sing Amazing Grace truthfully? If so, where does scripture ever refer of a believer as being "blind"?

Doug

 

[GDL]

Election logic:

If Election is to service - and if all who are saved serve - then Election is also to salvation

Election > [Salvation] > Service

So, the importance of Election being only to service & never to Salvation is what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"This is hilarious! I gave you a complete study of the use of election/chosen and HOW it is meant in the Bible. And you call it "lack of competeness".

Your list didn't even indicate what the election/choice was for. And you think THAT was some kind of complete??

Here's the deal, Doug. If election is EVER about salvation, it should rather easy to quote all of them. But I'll give you a pass and only request ONE verse that specifically states that God elects to salvation. Can you do it?

You failed to prove anything by your first list. Just a bunch of nouns and adjectives, which proved nothing.

My list were verbs that DO show purpose.

OK, just 1 verse. Can you do it?"

GDL, has done an excellent job, and I will sit back and enjoy watching your responses to his critique of your arguments.

Loose translation: no, I CAN'T do it, so I'll "sit back" and let GDL try to prove the unprovable. lol

In posts #292-95 he gives excellent arguments for both the active, continuous reading of "believing" and the need of such to remain in Christ, and for the "the Elect" being a reference of chosen for salvation.
Doug

Both he and you have failed totally in proving your theory that election is to salvation.

Here's a verse that I didn't include in my previous list that proves that election is to service, not salvation.

2 Pet 1:2 - who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Red words is about election, or being chosen.

Blue words is the purpose of objective of being chosen; to be obedient.

That is service.

Neither of you has provided ANY verses that speak of election being to salvation.

However, there is a sense in which God chooses who He will save. He chooses to save those who believe in His Son.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Red words clearly indicate that God makes a choice.
Blue words are the result of His choice; to save those who believe.

However, the Bible NEVER says that election is to salvation. That is just a Calvinist theory, propogated so effectively that most Chrstians today believe it.

Yet, there are NO verses that make that statement.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for telling me that verses 1-8 are the context of verse 9; an erudite observation that somehow never crossed my mind! Unbelievable!

Kinda what I thought. lol

Do you suppose that a "believer" in the state of verse 9 is able to sing Amazing Grace truthfully?

Probably not. What's your point? Is singing Amazing Grace a requirement for salvation now, or what?

If so, where does scripture ever refer of a believer as being "blind"?
Doug

2 Pet 1:9 does. Obviously.

Scripture also indicates that believers can be IGNORANT.

Rom 11:25 - I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

1 Cor 10:1 - For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.

Both of these verses demonstrate that believers CAN be ignorant of doctrine. And Paul was there to clear things up for them so they won't be ignorant.

1 Cor 15:34 - Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God —I say this to your shame.

This is a referencd to believers in the congregation who ARE ignorant.

Heb 5:2 - He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.

Hebrews was written to saved Jews.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Election logic:
If Election is to service - and if all who are saved serve - then Election is also to salvation

Your "logic" is rather fuzzy.

And you still miss the point. All believers (saved) are chosen to serve, also described in Scripture as "appointed" and "called" (invited). Does that mean that all believers DO serve? Of course not.

Keep in mind that Judas was chosen in John 6:70, and he was never saved. He was chosen to fulfill Scripture. God's omniscience always knew what Judas would do if given the opportunity, so God chose him to do it.

Election > [Salvation] > Service

This nice little equation doesn't make it true. What would make it true is ANY verse that actually says that election is to salvation.

All you've got are verses with nouns (ekloge) and adjectives (eklektos) that say nothing about the purpose or goal of election.

I provided the verses with verbs (eklegomai) that actually indicate the purpose or goal of election.

So, the importance of Election being only to service & never to Salvation is what?

Service. I thought that would be obvious.

Every believer needs to know they have been chosen to serve. Just as the nation of Israel was chosen to serve God. And they failed miserably. It went to their heads which got all swole

 

[GDL]

NAS 1 Peter 1:1-9 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

1) Peter writes to Hebrew Christians in the diaspora

2) Theses Hebrew Christians are chosen/elect
(a) according to God the Father's foreknowledge
(b) by the Spirit's sanctifying (setting apart) work
(c) for this purpose: so they may obey Jesus Christ & be sprinkled by His blood

 

[GDL]

Sorry - premature posting!

NAS 1 Peter 1:1-9 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

1) Peter writes to Hebrew Christians in the diaspora

2) Theses Hebrew Christians are chosen/elect
(a) according to God the Father's foreknowledge
(b) by the Spirit's sanctifying (setting apart) work
(c) purpose/goal: so they may obey Jesus Christ & be sprinkled by His blood - Faith in & Obedience to Jesus Christ are 2 sides of the same coin - We believe the Gospel & we obey the Gospel - Sprinkled by the blood of Jesus Christ speaks of all His death does for us to cleanse us from sin - I see this as speaking of the entire Salvation Process from Initial Salvation > Experiential Salvation > Final Salvation - SO, God's Election does have to do with Salvation. The word "Sanctification" applies at minimum to the believers being initially set apart to God & to the believers being continually set apart to God in the spiritual growth (Salvation) process. Peter will detail this in 1:3 & on where he identifies all 3 parts of the Salvation Process pursuant to God's Plan for the Christian.

3) Peter's prayer for Grace to be given in the fullest measure has to do with what I've shown earlier about Grace: Grace is not only given in our Initial Salvation, but Grace is also a part of our being out from under being ruled by sin as Christians (Rom6) and coordinately it teaches us to live godly lives (Titus2).

4) 1:3-4 Born again to a living hope = our resurrection from death > inheritance: Based in Christ's resurrection & sharing in Christ's inheritance of all things, Peter deals with the entire scope of our Salvation from birth [through our lives as Christian 1:5-8] to our future resurrection & inheritance. Our Election was for this purpose: Salvation beginning to end.

5) 1:4-5 Our future Salvation is identified & we are protected by God for this future Salvation by Faith. Note "Faith" here: Firstly it ties back to being obedient to Jesus Christ - as I said, Faith & Obedience are 2 sides of the same coin; Secondly, as this verse is talking about an ongoing protection by God, the simple implication is that our Faith & thus Obedience is ongoing as we look forward to our future hope (hope just denotes something future) of resurrection & inheritance.

6) 1:6 Peter details our life in the Experiential Salvation/Sanctification process: We will be tested to prove our most valuable, ongoing Faith/Obedience until the return of Christ.

7) 1:8-9 To love Jesus Christ in truth, we must be obeying Jesus Christ, which means we must be believing in Jesus Christ. Ultimately true love for God & true belief in God are all tied to our obedience to God. Peter has used all of these words in these verses for this reason. The outcome of our ongoing (continuous), proven obedience/faith/belief/love from Salvation start to Salvation finish is the future salvation of our souls. Genesis tells us that body + spirit = soul. Soul is a word used for the entirety of our being and is sometimes translated as lives.

This is a great piece of Scripture for seeing the entire Salvation Process and it's obvious that our Faith/Obedience/Love is continuous from beginning to end looking forward to its outcome & future/hope.

It also looks to me like our Election was for this purpose: from being born again to resurrection & inheritance. Please note that under God's protection (1:5) Christians are going through a Faith/Obedience proving process in which they are abiding/remaining/continuing to the end. The very clear implication here is that this is for those who continue & not for those who do not.

It also seems clear, once again, that this is what we are Elected for - ongoing Faith/Obedience in Salvation from start to finish.

 

[TibiasDad]

Probably not. What's your point? Is singing Amazing Grace a requirement for salvation now, or what?

If you can't see the point, then you are a truly brainwashed mind with the inability to think objectively.

2 Pet 1:9 does. Obviously.

Scripture also indicates that believers can be IGNORANT.

1) Appealing to the verse in question is circular reasoning! Logical error #1

2) It does not follow that because ignorance is a possible adjective for a believer, that being blind is as well! Logical error #2

3) You are shifting the argument from the focus of blindness as a legitimate description of a believer to that of ignorance! Logical error #3

4) Ignorance is merely a stage of not being privy to information needed through no direct fault of the individual. Blindness is a state of total inability to see. We may be ignorant of the colors of a rainbow because we are blind, but not all ignorance is because of blindness. Logical error #4

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

(c) purpose/goal: so they may obey Jesus Christ & be sprinkled by His blood - Faith in & Obedience to Jesus Christ are 2 sides of the same coin - We believe the Gospel & we obey the Gospel - Sprinkled by the blood of Jesus Christ speaks of all His death does for us to cleanse us from sin - I see this as speaking of the entire Salvation Process from Initial Salvation > Experiential Salvation > Final Salvation - SO, God's Election does have to do with Salvation. The word "Sanctification" applies at minimum to the believers being initially set apart to God & to the believers being continually set apart to God in the spiritual growth (Salvation) process. Peter will detail this in 1:3 & on where he identifies all 3 parts of the Salvation Process pursuant to God's Plan for the Christian.

Bingo! I would forewarn you, however, to be certain that you understand that every verse in the in the 9 verses of the passage is in the context of the other eight verses; FG2 felt it necessary to point this out, as I, apparently, seemed to be ignorant of such a concept. So be on guard!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

NAS 1 Peter 1:1-9 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.

1) Peter writes to Hebrew Christians in the diaspora
2) Theses Hebrew Christians are chosen/elect
(a) according to God the Father's foreknowledge
(b) by the Spirit's sanctifying (setting apart) work
(c) for this purpose: so they may obey Jesus Christ & be sprinkled by His blood

Yep. Election is "for this purpose: to obey Jesus Christ. That's service in different words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry - premature posting!

NAS 1 Peter 1:1-9

It also looks to me like our Election was for this purpose: from being born again to resurrection & inheritance.

Except this is NOT what 1 Pet 1:2 says. The purpose is clearly stated: for obedience. That is service. Not salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
" What's your point? Is singing Amazing Grace a requirement for salvation now, or what?"

If you can't see the point, then you are a truly brainwashed mind with the inability to think objectively.

Very loose translation: I can't answer your question.

Instead of just admitting that, why did you think it helpful to throw in an ad hominem?

1) Appealing to the verse in question is circular reasoning! Logical error #1

2) It does not follow that because ignorance is a possible adjective for a believer, that being blind is as well! Logical error #2

3) You are shifting the argument from the focus of blindness as a legitimate description of a believer to that of ignorance! Logical error #3

4) Ignorance is merely a stage of not being privy to information needed through no direct fault of the individual. Blindness is a state of total inability to see. We may be ignorant of the colors of a rainbow because we are blind, but not all ignorance is because of blindness. Logical error #4
Doug

Your own previous post showed how fuzzy your own logic is. And you try to teach me about logic? How illogical!!

 

[TibiasDad]

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Red words clearly indicate that God makes a choice.
Blue words are the result of His choice; to save those who believe.

However, the Bible NEVER says that election is to salvation. That is just a Calvinist theory, propogated so effectively that most Chrstians today believe it.

Yet, there are NO verses that make that statement.

1) πιστεύω is in the present tense...again!

2) Are you so blind as to not see that the "choice", the election that God was pleased to make was to "save" (σώζω)? You have proven yourself wrong...again!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Very loose translation: I can't answer your question.

That's the problem, you think loose translations are valid arguments of truth!

Instead of just admitting that, why did you think it helpful to throw in an ad hominem?

I didn't, I set a hypothetical if/then proposition. If you assume the apodosis as true, then you affirm the validity of the protasis, thus making it a true statement and acknowledgement of the fact!

Your own previous post showed how fuzzy your own logic is. And you try to teach me about logic? How illogical!!

1) You never said I was "fuzzy" in my own logic; you did to GDL, but not me! Though since I agree completely with GDL, I can understand the mental lasp!

2) This would be logical error #5, specifically, the Tu Quoque, error, or as I like to think of it, the "Misery loves company" fallacy!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Yep. Election is "for this purpose: to obey Jesus Christ. That's service in different words.

And "be sprinkled with his blood" , which is salvation! As GDL has pointed out, two sides of the same coin! We are elected to be saved so that we can obey!

Doug