Temporal Salvation?

[TibiasDad]

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Election is NEVER about salvation.

Bible Search of Elect on biblehub.com

Mark 13:20 "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would ...
... But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. ...
But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. ...
//biblehub.com/mark/13-20.htm - 18k

Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and ...
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs
and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ...
//biblehub.com/mark/13-22.htm - 18k

Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from ...
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds,
from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. ...
//biblehub.com/mark/13-27.htm - 18k

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear ...

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs
and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/24-24.htm - 18k

Matthew 24:22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would ...
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for
the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/24-22.htm - 18k

Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call ...
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect
from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/24-31.htm - 19k

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to ...
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God's
elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness ...
//biblehub.com/titus/1-1.htm - 19k

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the ...
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain
the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. ...
//biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-10.htm - 19k

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect ...
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout
the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia ...
//biblehub.com/1_peter/1-1.htm - 19k

Romans 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so ...
... The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, .... ...
//biblehub.com/romans/11-7.htm - 18k

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has ...
... Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. ...
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the ...
//biblehub.com/romans/8-33.htm - 17k

2 John 1:1 The elder, To the lady chosen by God and to her ...
... The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth,
and not only I, but also all who know the truth ...
//biblehub.com/2_john/1-1.htm - 19k

2 John 1:13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God ...
... The children of your elect sister greet you. ... The children
of your elect sister send you greetings. ...
//biblehub.com/2_john/1-13.htm - 17k

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones ...
... And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? ... Will not
God grant justice to His elect who cry out to Him day and night? ...
//biblehub.com/luke/18-7.htm - 18k

In every single one of these references "elect" or "the elect" or "His elect" refer to his born again children that were chosen to be so. Not a role or task that they are chosen to carry out. There certainly are times that chosen it about a role to be carried out, which is precisely what Jesus meant by "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you" John 15:16 ; he chose them to be disciples! That is a specific role and task! To be the first father's of the Church and the first evangelists to carry the gospel. None of the above verses can be pretzel-twisted into meaning "those chosen to do something" !

 

[TibiasDad]

You think that there are "contextual reasons" for your argument, but I address all your points. I didn't change the subject by citing Isa 1:18-20. I cited it to show that God blesses/rewards faithfulness and punishes rebellion. That's a biblical fact. But I find that Arminians deny that fact. Instead of being rewarded in eternity, Arminians default to "loss of salvation". Showing that Arminians are in denial.


You've shown nothing that weakens my argument. And you still can't get around John 10:28, the single BEST verse that states eternal security in the Bible.

Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

How can you deny this very straightforward statement?

This is the last time I will say this: I do not deny that those who are given eternal life will never perish! I only disagree with your FG interpretation that if someone starts to believe but becomes and apostate and denies what he once actively believed in and thus ceases to believe, still will receive eternal life, despite trampling on the blood that Christ shed for there sins! Those who will have eternal life are those who are believing believers! Those that endure, those who are victorious in the end, those who hold fast the faith that they had when they first believed until the very end, those who do not shrink back, who remain in the vine and are not cut off and cast off into the fire!

I was going to post another detailed breakdown of 1 John 2:3-11, but I will simply post the passage and properly emphasize the pertinent phrases and leave it to the Holy Spirit to elicit the common sense reading of the text, which even in the English is quite clear and unmistakable. He, the Spirit, is the one that leads to all truth: It's not my job to convince you. We are only called to persuade men about Christ. (2 Cor 5:11)

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them. 1 John 2:3-11

It is my sincere prayer that you hold fast till the end and walk as Jesus walked as Jesus walked. For one thing is certain, if you are right, I have nothing to lose, but if I am correct, you will be cursing yourself throughout eternity for refusing to see the truth of the matter.

I leave you in peace,

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

You think that there are "contextual reasons" for your argument, but I address all your points. I didn't change the subject by citing Isa 1:18-20. I cited it to show that God blesses/rewards faithfulness and punishes rebellion. That's a biblical fact. But I find that Arminians deny that fact. Instead of being rewarded in eternity, Arminians default to "loss of salvation". Showing that Arminians are in denial.

And I answered your Isa 1:18-20 argument with contextual information, 1:27-31, that counters your assertions that it is about rewards and you did not even attempt to answer my counter in the Isa 1:27-31; you merely revert to John.

Doug

 

[GDL]

2 Peter 3:3

RE: 2Pet:

1) Do you see the cleansing of past sins in 1:9 to be at initial faith in Christ?

2) Do you see the goal for our having been given all the things & promises per 1:3-4 as our becoming sharers/partners of the divine nature?

3) Did you see that BAGD sees argos in 1:8 meaning "useless" or "worthless" and that it picks up from one of the Greek manuscripts that this is the word found in James2:20 saying faith w/o works is argos (instead of dead)?

4) What you picked up in Strongs re: bebaios in 1:10 was good. BAGD adds some strong concepts as do some other lexicons.

5) Based upon what I've seen you saying, I assume your thinking re: loss of salvation in 2Pet has also to do with 2:14, 18-22; 3:14-17, correct? Would you add or elaborate on any of this?

FWIW:

I took all the uses of epignosis & eusebia in Scripture years ago & wanted to see if there was better detail and more specificity of meaning that could be seen from how God uses these words.

Epignosis seemed to me to be speaking of practical knowledge - knowledge to be used for whatever its purposes.

Eusebeia (godliness) turned out to be one of those Greek words that the Scripture applies a lot of detail to and thus it takes several points to do it justice. I ended up with a summary meaning of "living a willingly obedient righteous & holy life towards God as did/does Jesus Christ." So, when Paul introduces himself in Titus 1:1, I see him telling us that his apostleship is for God's Elect's Faith, namely the practical knowledge of truth re: living a willingly obedient righteous & holy life toward God as did/does Jesus Christ.

This seems to me to fit well with what 2Peter says in 1:3 using epignosis & eusebeia, and is putting forth in 1:4 as our goal of sharing/partnering in the divine nature. I also see Peter referencing Paul in all these matters in 2Pet3:16, so none of this similar use of words is surprising.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bible Search of Elect on biblehub.com

How about that! You've done my work for me. Thanks.

Mark 13:20 "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would ...
... But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. ...
But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. ...
//biblehub.com/mark/13-20.htm - 18k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and ...
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs
and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ...
//biblehub.com/mark/13-22.htm - 18k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from ...
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds,
from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. ...
//biblehub.com/mark/13-27.htm - 18k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear ...

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs
and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/24-24.htm - 18k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Matthew 24:22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would ...
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for
the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/24-22.htm - 18k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call ...
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect
from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. ...
//biblehub.com/matthew/24-31.htm - 19k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to ...
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God's
elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness ...
//biblehub.com/titus/1-1.htm - 19k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the ...
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain
the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. ...
//biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-10.htm - 19k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect ...
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout
the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia ...
//biblehub.com/1_peter/1-1.htm - 19k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Romans 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so ...
... The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, .... ...
//biblehub.com/romans/11-7.htm - 18k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has ...
... Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. ...
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the ...
//biblehub.com/romans/8-33.htm - 17k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

2 John 1:1 The elder, To the lady chosen by God and to her ...
... The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth,
and not only I, but also all who know the truth ...
//biblehub.com/2_john/1-1.htm - 19k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

2 John 1:13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God ...
... The children of your elect sister greet you. ... The children
of your elect sister send you greetings. ...
//biblehub.com/2_john/1-13.htm - 17k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

Luke 18:7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones ...
... And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? ... Will not
God grant justice to His elect who cry out to Him day and night? ...
//biblehub.com/luke/18-7.htm - 18k

Nothing about being chosen for salvation. That is just an assumption or presumption.

In every single one of these references "elect" or "the elect" or "His elect" refer to his born again children

Yes, according to Eph 1:4, the "us" in "God chose US" refers to believers, as Paul described in Eph 1:19 - and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

that were chosen to be so.

More presumption. Eph 1:4 says believers were chosen "to be holy and blameless". And Eph 5:5-27 says this:
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

God's purpose is "to make her holy". The "her" refers to the "church". So, that means people who are already SAVED. And God wants to present believers holy and blameless.

So you can't say 1:4 uses "to be holy and blameless" to be another way to describe the salvation process. To be holy and blameless follows salvation. It's called spiritual growth.

None of the above verses can be pretzel-twisted into meaning "those chosen to do something" !

Correct. All of them used the word as either an adjective, or a noun. And neither define the word as to what it means.

My next post will prove that election is about being chosen for service.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For TibiasDad:

Election is to service, not salvation.

I Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:

Matt 12:18 - “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many (the masses).

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses”, declares the Lord, “and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.”

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

Acts 3:13 - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. You handed Him over to be killed, and you disowned Him before Pilate, though he had decided to let Him go.

Acts 3:20 - and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

Acts 4:27 - Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed .

Acts 4:30 - Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Acts 10:42 - He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Eph 1:22 - And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Phil 2:7 - but made Himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Heb 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Heb 2:17 - For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Heb 3:2 - He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.

Heb 3:2-6 compares Jesus with Moses as as faithful servant, who was appointed.

Heb 5:10 - God appointed him chief priest in the way Melchizedek was a priest.

Heb 7:28 - For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 8:3 - Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this One ((Jesus) also to have something to offer.

Heb 10:7 - Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”

II The original 12 apostles were chosen/appointed for service:

Mark 3:14 - He appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach

John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Acts 1:2 - until the day He was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles He had chosen.

Next, I'll provide the verses about Paul's election to service, not salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For TibiasDad:

III Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And, finally,

IV Angels were elected to service:

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

So, there you have it. Election is clearly said to be for service. In EVERY example.

btw, I gave you a number of examples of those who were called "chosen" or "elect".

Can you show any verse that says any of the examples were chosen for salvation.

You cannot.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is the last time I will say this: I do not deny that those who are given eternal life will never perish!

I don't believe your statement. Here's why. You DO believe that any recipient of eternal life who later abandons the faith will perish.

You are trying to have it both ways. You claim eternal security but then in the next breath deny it.

I only disagree with your FG interpretation that if someone starts to believe but becomes and apostate and denies what he once actively believed in and thus ceases to believe, still will receive eternal life

You err once again by your words "if someone STARTS to believe". I never said that, so why did you add unnecessary words that I never said?

If someone BELIEVES. That is the issue. The only question about John 10:28 is WHEN recipients become recipients of eternal life.

And Jesus answered that previously, in John 5:24 and 6:47. WHEN a person believes is WHEN a person becomes a recipient of eternal life.

So Jesus' promise in 10:28 begins the MOMENT one believes. Proving eternal security.

despite trampling on the blood that Christ shed for there sins!

Why don't you understand that EVERY sin tramples the shed blood? Every one that you and I commit.

Your real issue is with grace. You (and all Arminians) just can't stand the thought that a "really bad believer" will STILL go to heaven.

Those who will have eternal life are those who are believing believers!

[
Oh, here we go again with your nonsensical present tense stuff. Eternal life as a gift is given WHEN a person believes in Christ. It's not a future reception. It's a present tense gift reception. Jesus doesn't give a promise; He gives an actual gift.

Those that endure, those who are victorious in the end, those who hold fast the faith that they had when they first believed until the very end, those who do not shrink back, who remain in the vine and are not cut off and cast off into the fire!

What a sad summary of your theology. Totally graceless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

TibiasDad,

I have provided many verses where the purpose of election is clearly in view. And none of them say that salvation is.

And you haven't provided any verses that do. All the verses you provided only use "chosen/elect" as either an adjective or as a noun.

Neither use provides any clue as to the PURPOSE or OBJECTIVE of being chosen or elected.

A passage that I didn't include in any of the examples:

In the following passage, the red words show that being 'called' and 'chosen' are interchangeable. The blue words are the PURPOSE or OBJECTIVE of WHY one is called or chosen.

1 Cor 1-
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

These verses specifically specify as to WHAT the election is FOR. And it ain't salvation.

 

[GDL]

The repeated tactic of simply stating that something doesn’t mean something is no proof. It’s just a simplistic tactic.

RE: Election: It’s easy to read the verses supplied. God chose all of Israel as His Elect. All Christians are God’s Elect. As a priest nation, all of Israel was in service to the Lord. All Christians are in service to the Lord. Some Christians were surely appointed to certain service. All Christians are given a gift by which to serve.

The argument between theological systems here is whether, or not, God chooses certain people to be saved and certain people not to be saved. But this argument is not resolved by saying election only pertains to service. God’s people are His Elect.

 

[GDL]

NKJ John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

YLT John 5:24 'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

Discussions re: the present tense, or any tense, are not meaningless. These tenses can be interpreted in different ways and there are many different uses of the present tense to chose as an interpreter. The NKJ just uses a simple translation of the present tense “hears” & “believes.” The YLT chose to translate these words as being continuous.

There’s nothing here that says that anything happens the “moment” one hears & believes. Also, the perfect tense “passed from death to life” does not state that this condition does or does not last forever.

A couple quick observations: (1) In 5:29 the basis of judgment is interesting; (2) This verse is in the context of honoring Jesus as one honors the Father. So, at what point does one get to stop honoring Jesus & the Father and still have 5:24 apply? Maybe this is one reason that YLT chose the continuous present.


NKJ John 6:47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

YLT John 6:47 'Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during;

Similar comments to those re John5:24. Including the fact that there is nothing here that tells us that eternal life was given the moment some believed.

Some observations: (1) As Jesus proceeds, He uses the Bread of Life & the eating of His flesh & drinking of His blood illustrations. Note the present tense issues again – so is eating & drinking a one-time event, or is it ongoing?:

NKJ John 6:54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

YLT John 6:54 he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, hath life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day;

One way to answer the question re: the continuous present in 6:54 is via 6:56:

NKJ John 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

YLT John 6:56 he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, doth remain in me, and I in him.

Abiding/remaining/staying is commanded by our Lord. It requires continuous action on our part. This is covered in John’s Gospel & really driven home in 1John. We don’t remain because we ate & drank once. And in J6:40, 47, 64 & 69 what all this teaching pertains to is whether or not someone believes in Jesus Christ & continues to believe (remains) in Him (6:67-69). The eating & drinking is a continuous matter. The remaining is a continuous matter. I think the evidence is pointing to these present tenses being continuous and that eternal life is something to be maintained through a dynamic, ongoing relationship with God. There is nothing in these verses to say otherwise & the disciples that remained are saying that Jesus’ sayings re: eternal life are something they need to be continually digesting, that remaining in this dynamic relationship hearing Him, following Him, believing in Him is the only way to get them, and although His words were harsh & offensive to people, they’re staying put to eat & drink more & more, no matter what tests He’s throwing at people. The evidence seems clearly to reflect a continuous present here & includes the active will of His true disciples.


NKJ John 10:24-28 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Some observations: (1) There’s nothing here that says Jesus gives Eternal Life the “moment” someone believes; (2) There is Eternal Security for those who hear His voice & follow Him, which according to Jesus are those who believe He is the Christ. So, once again the hearing, believing & following is consistent with the dynamic, abiding relationship with Him & He identifies this as Belief. And since following Him is most certainly ongoing, belief is ongoing. Jesus tested that in John6 discussed above.


NKJ John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

YLT John 3:36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'


NKJ 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

YLT 1 John 3:14 we -- we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.


NKJ 1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

YLT 1 John 3:15 Every one who is hating his brother -- a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining,


If the relationship is not continuous then it was never entered into because there was/is no Faith (J6:64-65), or maybe Faith and all that goes with it were lost when someone stopped abiding in the belief that Jesus is the Christ, and thus stopped following Him. Based on John’s Gospel, and on 1John, which elaborates & clarifies John’s Gospel, I don’t see how one can claim eternal life apart from remaining in the dynamic relationship with Christ and coming to the point of living by the 2nd greatest commandment & thus the 1st greatest also to whatever degree God determines.

The continuous category of the present tense is nothing to throw away to support a particular theological opinion. There are several ways to categorize a present tense.

 

[GDL]

NKJ Rom. 11:3-5 3 "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life "? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Apparently by Grace God Elects


NKJ Rom. 6:11-18 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Apparently being under subjection to Grace enables us to actively obey God / sin not to rule us.


NKJ Titus 2:1—15 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things-- 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. 6 Likewise exhort the young men to be sober-minded, 7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you. 9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Apparently God’s Saving Grace teaches us to righteously. Sounds quite a bit like Rom6. Also sounds like something accomplished in an ongoing dynamic relationship with God.


Once again, the dynamics of an active, abiding relationship with God are in view, where He supplies the Grace and we respond with obedient action. There is a lot of instruction & content re: Grace and what God is accomplishing with it.


Charging a fellow Christian with holding to a Graceless theology can be sent right back, but that would be graceless.

 

[GDL]

Apparently God’s Saving Grace teaches us to righteously. Sounds quite a bit like Rom6. Also sounds like something accomplished in an ongoing dynamic relationship with God.

Apparently God’s Saving Grace teaches us to live righteously. Sounds quite a bit like Rom6. Also sounds like something accomplished in an ongoing dynamic relationship with God

 

[GDL]

NKJ Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NKJ 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2 Thess. 2:13 NKJ)

Just a couple verses to play with re: being chosen for salvation & eternal life.

 

[TibiasDad]

1) Do you see the cleansing of past sins in 1:9 to be at initial faith in Christ?

Yes, this is the most logical point of reference. What I find interesting, is that the FG stance assumes that all sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, but Peter only refers to past sins specifically. He doesn't use all inclusive language like "all your sins" , so if Peter actually believed that all sin past, present, and future all forgiven, why only mention past sins?

Doug

 

[GDL]

Yes, this is the most logical point of reference. What I find interesting, is that the FG stance assumes that all sins, past, present, and future are forgiven, but Peter only refers to past sins specifically. He doesn't use all inclusive language like "all your sins" , so if Peter actually believed that all sin past, present, and future all forgiven, why only mention past sins?

Doug

Thanks! Food for thought.

 

[TibiasDad]

TibiasDad,

I have provided many verses where the purpose of election is clearly in view. And none of them say that salvation is.

And you haven't provided any verses that do. All the verses you provided only use "chosen/elect" as either an adjective or as a noun.

Neither use provides any clue as to the PURPOSE or OBJECTIVE of being chosen or elected.

A passage that I didn't include in any of the examples:

In the following passage, the red words show that being 'called' and 'chosen' are interchangeable. The blue words are the PURPOSE or OBJECTIVE of WHY one is called or chosen.

1 Cor 1-
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

These verses specifically specify as to WHAT the election is FOR. And it ain't salvation.

I am not going to have to respond at length, because GDL has already responded to the obvious lack of completeness of your research, which, by the way, is another similarity of the way cult theology and apologetics are performed. Specifically, especially with the Jehovah's Witnesses, they choose a definition of a word that suits their agenda, and mandate that definition for most, if not all the uses by saying things like, "Election is NEVER about salvation."

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

RE: Election: It’s easy to read the verses supplied. God chose all of Israel as His Elect. All Christians are God’s Elect. As a priest nation, all of Israel was in service to the Lord. All Christians are in service to the Lord. Some Christians were surely appointed to certain service. All Christians are given a gift by which to serve.

Bingo. GDL has election correct. It is for service.

The argument between theological systems here is whether, or not, God chooses certain people to be saved and certain people not to be saved.

There is no argument. Or shouldn't be. Since there are no verses that state that God elects to salvation.

But this argument is not resolved by saying election only pertains to service. God’s people are His Elect.

Your statement doesn't resolve anything.

I gave verses that specifically note that election is to service. TD gave verses that had the noun and adjective, but neither defines the word, or explains it.

 

[TibiasDad]

2) Do you see the goal for our having been given all the things & promises per 1:3-4 as our becoming sharers/partners of the divine nature?

I wouldn't say it that way, I think the promises given, and whatever else might be included in the "everything given" are to benefit our participation in the divine nature. As I see it, God's sperma, his seed or nature becomes ours when the Holy Spirit takes up residence within us. I think that thing that we are told to add to our faith, verses 5-7, is probably the detailing of the corporate expression of "everything" , and thus these things, when continually increasing, are what facilitates the participation in the divine nature. Be come participants when we are born again, but we need to learn how to handle all that new horsepower under the hood! (That is an extremely important theological term, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about! )

Doug