Temporal Salvation?

JLB777 said:

Do you believe Christians can fall away from Christ?

Click to expand...

Let me clarify what I ASSUME you are asking:

Since Jesus taught [Matthew 13] that "Christians" consist of BOTH
saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and destined to eternal life and
unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and destined to the same fire
prepared for Satan [Mat 25:41]

I ASSUME you are asking whether saved "wheat/sheep" who
are given ETERNAL LIFE can "fall away" and LOSE what is "eternal".

And, of course the DEFINITION of "eternal" makes the question moot.

Jim
.

.

NO MAN can believe unless they are GIVEN that believe

FreeGrace2 said:

Please back up your opinion with Scripture. Because I don't believe your opinion.

Click to expand...

Gladly, but I must ASSUME you understand "belief/faith" are
the same: I will prove it if you need, for now I assume you know:



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.

Here's a FACT for your Calvinistic tendencies. There are NO verses that teach that God is the Source of anyone's belief. In fact, Scripture says that man believes from his heart. The heart is where the conscience resides and where people make decisions.

Click to expand...

First, I do not know how Calvin got involved in this discussion.
I know WHY you construct that strawman... you should stop
because it only demonstrates the "fruit" of dishonesty.


Secondly, even if we assume your statement about the heart is true...
you did not show the heart of UN-REGENERATED men can believe...
or do anything "good" in the sight of God [Rom 3:10-12]


Thirdly, I refer you to the verses above... "faith/believe"
is a GIFT OF GRACE and not something man generates.
At least that is what the BIBLE says (very clearly).
Do you believe the Bible verses above... or
do you think MEN generate "faith/belief"?


Let me say that I have NO DOUBT that you are sincere
in what you believe. However, you are sincerely WRONG
because your belief contradicts (many) related Scriptures.
Many very basic and essential Scriptures.


But here is the bottom line very simply:
"His sheep" believe because they hear Him. (red below)
Those who are NOT "His sheep" cannot believe. (blue below)


Joh 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know
them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life;
and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them
out of my hand.


Jim

WordSword said:

Good to see you too on this site and your input! Concerning Universalism, it's my opinion that it is a doctrine that is so prevalently opposed to Scripture that there's not much need of discussion about it. I realize that there may be some passages that seem to advocate it (e.g. 1Ti 2:4), though I haven't seen any true Biblical support concerning it, but we can discuss any passages that you feel may be addressing it.

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It actually might be worth your time looking into some of the papers for it from the 1800's. If not out of idle curiosity, but for some insight into biblical research methods. The people who did it were constantly under attack, and were sometimes really, really smart. My only real exposure to it was a paper I picked up from somewhere in the 1800's where a guy just talked about the word used for 'eternal' for 50 pages. There was a little opinion in there, but it was mostly things like references, then cross references, then contexts on those cross references, then bringing in another early Greek version of the New Testament, then comparing the Greek word used in the new testament to the word use in all the Greek translations of the old testament from Jesus' time and before ... It might sound kind of dry put that way, but I actually couldn't put it down and read it in one night.

I already posted some of the passages somewhere earlier in this thread. I think twice, maybe. I don't really feel like hunting it down since it's not that important to me and doesn't seem important to you either. (Important is the wrong word there for what I'm trying to say, but I can't think of the right one right now. So please don't read too much into that.) I mostly just made the original post because a guy was kind of annoying me by using a 'my way or the highway' type attitude.

5thKingdom said:

.NO MAN can believe unless they are GIVEN that believe

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"FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Please back up your opinion with Scripture. Because I don't believe your opinion."

Gladly, but I must ASSUME you understand "belief/faith" are
the same: I will prove it if you need, for now I assume you know:

Click to expand...

Those words are nouns, not verbs (action). It seems you are trying to force a noun to be a verb. God does NOT cause anyone to believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.

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The word "faith" here specifically refers to believing in Christ as Savior. And man is saved when he believes in Christ as Savior.

First, I do not know how Calvin got involved in this discussion.

Click to expand...

Much of what you post falls under the heading of "Calvinism".

I know WHY you construct that strawman... you should stop
because it only demonstrates the "fruit" of dishonesty.

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I don't care what you think. When you post a lot of Calvinist stuff, that's why the word comes up.

Secondly, even if we assume your statement about the heart is true...

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So, do you mean you have to "assume Rom 10:10 is true"???

you did not show the heart of UN-REGENERATED men can believe...
or do anything "good" in the sight of God [Rom 3:10-12]
OK, sure. John 5:25 - Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Exactly what do you think the red words are referring to?

Thirdly, I refer you to the verses above... "faith/believe"
is a GIFT OF GRACE and not something man generates.

Click to expand...

Do you actually "generate" any of your thoughts? Is that how you view thinking?

At least that is what the BIBLE says (very clearly).
Do you believe the Bible verses above... or
do you think MEN generate "faith/belief"?

Click to expand...

I think the whole notion about belief is something "generated" is just laughable.

Let me say that I have NO DOUBT that you are sincere
in what you believe. However, you are sincerely WRONG
because your belief contradicts (many) related Scriptures.

Click to expand...

You have yet to prove your claim.

Click to expand...

.
I said:
Gladly, but I must ASSUME you understand "belief/faith" are
the same: I will prove it if you need, for now I assume you know:

FreeGrace2 said:

"FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those words are nouns, not verbs (action). It seems you are trying to force a noun to be a verb. God does NOT cause anyone to believe.

Click to expand...

First:
I assume you have a Strong's concordance
Look up G4102 translated as "faith"

Now look up G4100 translated "believe"
which comes from G4102 (to have "faith")

Secondly:
"Believe" is a verb meaning "to have faith"

Thirdly:
You say God does NOT cause anyone to believe.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to have wrong opinions,
but the Bible (without question) teaches belief comes from God...
and is only possible to those God "elected" according to His own
Good Pleasure (and not because anything that elect would do)
This is known as the Gospel of Grace... you preach a gospel
of works (the "boaster's gospel")

BTW... are 35 examples of your error enough?
Or do you need more?


Those who CANNOT believe = not His sheep

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


So, it only takes TWO (2) passages to establish that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved... they COULD NOT be forgiven.
They were never ELECTED or CHOSEN to be saved.

On the other hand, there are DOZENS of passages that establish
that GOD decides who He will elect to believe and be conformed
and be saved.

So you can PRETEND that MAN DECIDES to become "elect"...
but you are only pretending (the BROAD WAY most Christians follow)
you have not found the narrow way that leads to eternal life.
The Gospel is one of monergism (God alone) not synergism
(God needs man's help).

Those who CAN believe = His sheep

(1) Joh 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(2) Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

(3) Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.

(4) Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do
of his good pleasure.

(5) Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(6) Joh 6:44
No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

(7) 1Jn 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

(8) Joh 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world,
but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

(9) Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
him in love:

(10) Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith OF [not in] Jesus Christ, even we
have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by
the faith OF [not in] Christ, and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(11) Joh 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(12) Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any
good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

(13) Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.

(14) Mat_22:14
For many are called, [called by the Gospel]
but few are chosen. [chosen to be saved]

(15) Mat 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last:
for many be called, [called by the Gospel]
but few chosen.[chosen to become saved]

(16) Rom 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom
I will have mercy, and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then
it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.

(17) Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [faith is]
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.

(18) Rom 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant
according to the election of grace.

(19) 1Th 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

(20) Joh 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

(21) Joh 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,
and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall
ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

(22) Joh 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you
out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

(23) Act 1:24
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts
of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

(24) Act 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way:
for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name
before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

(25) Rom 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.

(26) Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump
to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

(27) Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the
riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

(28) Act 22:14
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee,
that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

(29) 2Th 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the
beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification
of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

(30) 2Ti_2:4
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

(31) Jas 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor
of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

(32) 1Pe 2:4
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men,
but chosen of God, and precious,

(33) 1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises
of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(34) Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

(35) 1Pe_1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling
of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace,
be multiplied.

.

I said:
you did not show the heart of UN-REGENERATED men
can believe... or do anything "good" in the sight of God
[Rom 3:10-12]

FreeGrace2 said:

"FreeGrace2 said:

OK, sure. John 5:25 - Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

↑

Click to expand...

First... did you notice the phrase "those who hear"...
That has a MEANING (do you know what it means?)
and establishes only SOME will "hear".

Secondly... I wonder why you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED
Romans 3:10-12. Do you just reject or ignore passages
that you do not LIKE because they contradict your "works"
gospel where MAN decides to save himself before regeneration?


.

I said:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.

FreeGrace2 said:

"FreeGrace2 said:

The word "faith" here specifically refers to believing in Christ as Savior. And man is saved when he believes in Christ as Savior.

Click to expand...

Understand, this is NOT an ad homenim attack.
I keep showing you this and you keep missing or ignoring it
so I will say it S-L-O-W-L-Y with the hope you will FINALLY
comprehend and address the issue.

(1) The ISSUE is NOT whether "faith" refers to believing
in Christ.

(2) The ISSUE is whether UN-REGENERATED men
and NON-ELECT men can have "faith".

All you have to do is show where men God has NOT ELECTED
generate (decide to) have saving faith. Can you do that?
(Yes or NO?)

(3) If you cannot... and you continue to preach a synergistic gospel
where God NEEDS man's help for salvation, they you are most definitely
preaching a "boaster's gospel".


Jim

FreeGrace2 said:

Wow. I've been over this so many times, it's hard to believe that one can be so confused as you seem to be.

The phrases "remain in Him" and "abide in Him" are commandments that are given to believers, saved people. Do you seriously believe that a believer holds their own salvation in their own hands? That would be the height of ridiculous.

Salvation is God's plan. And all those God the Father gives to His Son (that would be believers) will NOT be lost. Don't believe me? OK, do you believe the Bible?

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:39 - This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Unless you are color blind, the following explanation may help:

The blue words refer to those who believe in Christ for salvation.
The red words refer specifically to eternal security.

You are invited to refute me from Scripture, by exegeting the 3 verses I just quoted.

Now, back to "remain" and "abide". These are words about fellowship. Did the prodigal "remain" or "abide" with his father, like his older brother? No. He broke fellowship.

But you won't even address this fact.


There are a whole lot of ignorant believers out there in whom "the truth in not in" them.

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Your doctrine seems to be nothing more that a denial of scripture.

You have cherry picked a few verses out of context to create your own version of salvation, which disregards the the teachings of Christ and obeying our Lord.


Truly a doctrine of disobedience.


You can’t even answer a simple question, which shines the light of truth on your deceitful doctrine of lawlessness.


Here is the question I asked you —


So it’s your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?

Yes or No?



JLB

5thKingdom said:

Let me clarify what I ASSUME you are asking:

Since Jesus taught [Matthew 13] that "Christians" consist of BOTH
saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and destined to eternal life and
unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and destined to the same fire
prepared for Satan [Mat 25:41]

I ASSUME you are asking whether saved "wheat/sheep" who
are given ETERNAL LIFE can "fall away" and LOSE what is "eternal".

And, of course the DEFINITION of "eternal" makes the question moot.

Jim
.

Click to expand...

It’s a simple question. Can you answer it, without making up your own question and answer fallacy?


Do you believe a Christian can fall away from Christ?




JLB

JLB777 said:

And performed by himself.


These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
“Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city! Matthew 10:5-15

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The false prophets mentioned in Matthew 7:21 also performed many miracles in Jesus’ name and Jesus said “I never knew you”. I don’t believe this is an example of falling away I believe this is an example of hypocrites. People pretending to believe. The reason I say this is because Jesus said “I never knew you”. This is very different than what Jesus said to His 11 faithful apostles in John 15. Jesus urges them to abiding in Him and to bear fruit. He also tells them this...

“You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:14-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now, Jesus has put a condition on remaining His friend which is keeping His commandments. He also says that at this point these men are His friends because at this point they have abided in Him and produced fruit. So if these men were to fall away I don’t think that Jesus would say to them “I never knew you” since He is saying right now that they are His friends. So apparently those who are not in Christ can still perform miracles in His name, perhaps to show God’s glory and evidence of His power in Christ’s name.

5thKingdom said:

.
First:
I assume you have a Strong's concordance
Look up G4102 translated as "faith"
Now look up G4100 translated "believe"
which comes from G4102 (to have "faith")

Click to expand...

Did you bother parsing the words? Belief and faith are NOUNS, not verbs.

Secondly:
"Believe" is a verb meaning "to have faith"

Click to expand...

Let me help you out here. The action of 'believe' means to trust in something. The "something" is a noun. The gospel message isn't a verb, but a noun. So, to believe in the gospel is to 'have faith in the gospel'. Still, faith is a noun, not an action.

Nouns are what we believe IN.

Thirdly:
You say God does NOT cause anyone to believe.

Click to expand...

Right here and right NOW I dare you to find any verse that says He does.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to have wrong opinions,
but the Bible (without question) teaches belief comes from God...

Click to expand...

I highly question your opinions.

Those who CANNOT believe = not His sheep

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Click to expand...

You have a bad habit of ADDING to Scripture. Please stop it. The word or even concept of "cannot" is NOT found in the verse.

You just don't want to see that "believe not" is a choice. But that is your problem.

So, it only takes TWO (2) passages to establish that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved... they COULD NOT be forgiven.
They were never ELECTED or CHOSEN to be saved.

Click to expand...

You have shown no such thing. The words "never meant" only rattle inside your own head. They are NOT found in Scripture.

On the other hand, there are DOZENS of passages that establish
that GOD decides who He will elect to believe and be conformed
and be saved.

Click to expand...

Your opinion cannot be shown from Scripture.

So you can PRETEND that MAN DECIDES to become "elect"...

Click to expand...

I don't even agree with what you are trying to force on me. God makes all the choices about who are elect. And Eph 1:4 says God chooses believers to be holy and blameless. An election about service.

(9) Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
him in love:

Click to expand...

Plain as day. The "us" here is the same "us" as in 1:19. Maybe you should look it up.
----------------------------------[/QUOTE]
I read every verse you quoted, and guess what! None of them had the words "never meant to believe", or God chose who would believe, or any other way to express the opinions you have.

Your post failed to support your opinions and claims.

5thKingdom said:

I said:
you did not show the heart of UN-REGENERATED men
can believe... or do anything "good" in the sight of God
[Rom 3:10-12]

Click to expand...

Sure I did. Paul said men "believe with the heart" for salvation. Rom 10:9,10.

[QUOTESecondly... I wonder why you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED
Romans 3:10-12.[/QUOTE]
What's to ignore? Everyone is a sinner. What's your point?

Do you just reject or ignore passages that you do not LIKE because they contradict your "works" gospel where MAN decides to save himself before regeneration?

Click to expand...

What I reject are silly statements like this one.

I haven't rejected any verse. I have rejected your unbiblical understanding of some verses.

When God offers salvation to mankind, that is God's decision, not man.

I keep asking you about drowning. How come you keep ignoring that? So don't tell me what I have ignored, when you keep doing it.

If you are drowning and someone offers their hand, and you grab it, does that qualify for you to boast about "saving yourself"?

Please answer.

"FreeGrace2 said:

The word "faith" here specifically refers to believing in Christ as Savior. And man is saved when he believes in Christ as Savior.

5thKingdom said:

I said:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.

(1) The ISSUE is NOT whether "faith" refers to believing
in Christ.

Click to expand...

This is just a preposterous statement. Of course the faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is about believing in Christ.

But, since you obviously disagree, please explain what the "faith" actually refers to.

(2) The ISSUE is whether UN-REGENERATED men
and NON-ELECT men can have "faith".

Click to expand...

No, this is just your own opinion about the verse. It's clear enough. But you keep applying your Calvinistic bias to the verse. And your statement has NEVER been supported by Scripture. Your problem is continuing to think that election is for salvation. And you can't even prove that from Scripture.

All you have to do is show where men God has NOT ELECTED
generate (decide to) have saving faith. Can you do that?
(Yes or NO?)

Click to expand...

Here is another glaring problem of yours. You keep thinking that a decision is "generated". How silly. Decisions are made. Not generated.

Since God created mankind with a conscience with which to determine right and wrong, you have no credibility. Read Rom 2:14,15. Even Gentiles who didn't have the Law know the difference between right and wrong. They are a law unto themselves. Because God created them that way. But your unbiblical views ignore the conscience.

(3) If you cannot... and you continue to preach a synergistic gospel
where God NEEDS man's help for salvation, they you are most definitely
preaching a "boaster's gospel".

Click to expand...

Again, you couldn't be more wrong. I've NEVER said or suggested that believing the gospel somehow "helps God" in saving man. That is worse than ludicrous.

Have you ever heard the word 'non-meritorious'? That's what believing is. It doesn't earn the believer anything. Salvation is given by GRACE, not works. So quit claiming that believing from the heart is somehow a work that God honors with a paycheck (salvation). That's worse than nuts.

Or, you can just keep your biases going and continue to spread all the "false news" you can muster, or "generate". lol

JLB777 said:

Your doctrine seems to be nothing more that a denial of scripture.

Click to expand...

Your unbiblical biases are getting in your way again.

You have cherry picked a few verses out of context to create your own version of salvation, which disregards the the teachings of Christ and obeying our Lord.

Click to expand...

OK, let's go with this opinion. If I have taken anything out of context, I DARE you to prove your opinion. And please explain exactly what my "own version of salvation" is, since I have no idea what you are even referring to. Oh, and include post #s so I can confirm what you claim.

You can’t even answer a simple question

Click to expand...

I've answered EVERY question of yours, unlike your response to my questions.

Here is the question I asked you —

So it’s your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?

Yes or No?[/QUOTE]
Let me ask you a parallel question: Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

That's what you questions are: loaded with ASSUMPTION.

So the answer address your false assumptions. You assume that a believer can be unsealed from Christ. Yet, you have repeatedly failed to show that from Scripture.

So I'm not ignoring your question. I'm pointing out the false assumptions in your question.

So, go ahead and answer; have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no.

5thKingdom said:

Gladly, but I must ASSUME you understand "belief/faith" are
the same: I will prove it if you need, for now I assume you know:

Click to expand...

By all means please do provide us with the FULL DEFINITION of the Greek words translated to faith, believe, and believer. That would be very beneficial.

5thKingdom said:

All you have to do is show where men God has NOT ELECTED
generate (decide to) have saving faith. Can you do that?
(Yes or NO?)

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I can show you verses where men whom God has regenerated are warned not to turn away from Christ and also warned of the consequences of turning away. Why would there be consequences of doing something that you claim is impossible? John 15:1-10, Ephesians 5:1-7, Romans 2:4-8, Romans 6:15-16, Romans 10:21 Romans 11:17-23, Galatians 5:4, Colossians 1:22-23, 2 Peter 2:20, 2 Timothy 2:12. I can keep listing verses all day long.

BNR32FAN said:

I can show you verses where men whom God has regenerated are warned not to turn away from Christ and also warned of the consequences of turning away.

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Not good enough. You need to show that the consequences clearly state that salvation/eternal life is lost. Don't need those specific words, but you DO need to show clearly that it is salvation/eternal life that will be lost.

WordSword said:

I appreciate your persistence on this issue (Universalism) but I think it best to use Scripture concerning discussing it. Thanks!

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Oh, I'm sorry if I was persistent. I don't necessarily believe it or anything, I just thought they were fun to read is all. Seriously ... not trying to convert you.