Temporal Salvation?

[GDL]

Thanks for the information, GDL, as I had never even considered the 2 inheritance -theory, the natural reading is a singular inheritance that formally belongs to Christ his Son and graciously to us, Christ's adoptive brothers and sisters. heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ does not show two inheritances, but two sets of heirs for a singular inheritance.

Doug

It can be the natural reading until a system tells us it isn't. And it's a lot of studious work to come out of a system & just let the Text speak.

Thanks, Doug.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You quote John 10:28 in a vacuum! The rest of the New Testament begs to differ!

So, it seems you believe that "the rest of the NT contradicts or refutes a single verse? Seriously? Every single verse is truth. The "rest of the NT" doesn't change the clear meaning of John 10:28. The problem for you is that it refutes your view.

1. Salvation is only for active, present tense believers
2. A plethora of scriptures have been put forth, including 2 Tim 2:12, that demonstrate the necessity of enduring, walking continually, and consistently growing in the grace shown us in order to experience the promises of God.
3. That these promises are always future in reality of actual experience and are
4. always possessed by faith, from first to last! For we do not hope for that which we already have, but "we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently." (Rom 8:23-25)
5. And the kicker verse that proves the point that GDL and I have been making: We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. Heb 3:14Doug[/QUOTE]

I changed the bullet points to numbers for ease of responding.

#1 - you keep repeating yourself but you keep failing to demonstrate that loss of faith equals loss of salvation, which seems to be your position. Of course the MOMENT of saving faith is in the present for that believer. It couldn't be anything other than the present tense. So, yes, ALL salvation occurs in the present tense.

However, Eph 1:13 speaks of "having believed", which is in the aorist tense, and clearly speaks of a point of time in the past WHEN people believed and from that MOMENT of time they were sealed with the HS who is a deposit who GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption. How can that not be eternal security?

#2 - again, v.12 is a clear and straightforward statement about eternal reward. But Arminians seem unable to grasp, or just don't want to accept the fact that obedience is rewarded, and rebellion is not. Isa 1:18-20 shows that clearly.

# 3-4 - of course all eternal reward promises are future. Can't be otherwise.

#5 - The problem is failure to understand what "sharing in Christ" means. It seems you think it refers to salvation, but it refers to fellowship with the Lord. Rom 8:17b speaks of "sharing in His sufferings" in order to "share in His glory", a parallel to 2 Tim 2:12.

It's all about reward in eternity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

RE: Rom8 - 2 inheritances:

FG MUST interpret & categorize most everything negative after an initial eternally saving event into divine discipline & loss of rewards, or it cannot maintain its foundational premise.

The Bible speaks clearly and specifically about reward and divine discipline throughout the NT. So your opinion here is fallacious.

In having come from this interpretative camp, I try to remain very wary to watch all interpretative arguments as objectively as I can.

Case in point:

FG2 is adamantly arguing for 2 inheritances in Rom8:16-17:

NKJ Rom8:16-17: 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs-- heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (I'm using NKJ just out of habit for simplicity & do acknowledge that this translation by its use of "--" near the beginning of v.17 does seem to use all words thereafter to after speak of the "heirs of God" - so 1 inheritance).

Not even close. As children of God, believers are heirs. That means they WILL be in heaven with the Father after physical death.

The co-heirship with Christ has to do specifically with "sharing in His glory", which is just another way of speaking of "reigning with Christ" from 2 Tim 2:12. You can deny this all you want, but Rom 8:17 and 2 Tim 2:12 are parallel.

Those who will "reign with Christ" will certainly "share in His glory" as co-heirs. How can you not see this? It is very simpe and straightforward.

Are you not aware of 2 Cor 5:10? All believers will be judged for their deeds, whether good or bad.

1 Cor 3:14,15 is very clear about LOSS OF REWARD, but not salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We've dealt with this before: no Greek tense says anything beyond the present tense moment being written about!

What are you talking about? Haven't you parsed "having believed"? Even in the English it's very clearly about a past tense belief. WHEN they believED. Why do you continually ignore reality?

The aorist tense (a completed punctiliar action) only tells us of the truth in that moment, it does not, indeed cannot project anything about whether that state of belief will continue.

Doesn't have to, and isn't even the point. The message is that FROM THE MOMENT of belief (whenever in the past it occurred) the one who believed WAS sealed (aorist) at that moment. And everything that follows is from that MOMENT they did believe.

Likewise with the seal "guarantee", they are only guaranteed if there is belief

You are not reading the text correctly. Or at all. There is nothing that supports your claim here. The guarantee is for those "having believed". Obviously.

there is no change to the guarantee only the state of belief to which it is predicated.

Your opinion is not supported by the clear language.

As long as there is belief, there is a seal of guarantee.

You're just making stuff up now. The text says differently.

No belief, no seal of guarantee!

There WAS belief. The text says "having believed". But it seems you don't even understand those words.

The present tense giving of the seal says nothing not can say anything about the future state of that deal in itself.
Doug

Never mind that your statement here makes no sense at all. And your comment about "the present tense giving of the seal" isn't even correct.

The Greek is "you WERE sealed". And that follows "in whom also having believed". There is NO present tense for you to abuse!

The reality is that WHEN a person believes savingly they are sealed at that same moment. That's what the verse says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for the information, GDL, as I had never even considered the 2 inheritance -theory, the natural reading is a singular inheritance that formally belongs to Christ his Son and graciously to us, Christ's adoptive brothers and sisters. heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ does not show two inheritances, but two sets of heirs for a singular inheritance.

Doug

How sad that you cannot discern the 2 inheritances. Both God and Christ are mentioned. And inheritances related to EACH ONE. And you can't see this?? Where is your discernment?

As children of God, we have that inheritance as children.

As those who "share in Christ's sufferings" (endure in 2 Tim 1:12) they will "share in His glory" (reign with Him in 2 Tim 2:12).

Couldn't be any more clear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I've said to you once before, I've talked with Jesus about it, and He says I'm fine!

Doug

This shows a serious complex going on. You may be hearing voices, but not what you think. His words are so clear that one HAS TO work to misunderstand them.

 

[TibiasDad]

# 3-4 - of course all eternal reward promises are future. Can't be otherwise.

1) I didn't say eternal rewards, I said that the receiving of all the promises of God is future.

2) If the actual reality of these promises is future, then we cannot actually possess it now in the present tense.

Doug

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think I may see what you mean, "stray" from what they thought was a pursuit of faith but not a possession of it. If we truly desire the Lord Jesus we will seek Him and inevitably be "drawn" to Him.

That’s merely an assumption that fails to consider Jesus’ message in John 15:1-10.

 

[TibiasDad]

So, it seems you believe that "the rest of the NT contradicts or refutes a single verse? Seriously? Every single verse is truth. The "rest of the NT" doesn't change the clear meaning of John 10:28. The problem for you is that it refutes your view.

I say that the rest of the NT informs the meaning of every other verse. The truth that those who are given eternal life will never perish assumes the truth that the giving of eternal life is to "the ones believing" in a present tense reality. (John 3:16, 18, 36, John 7:38, John 12:44, Rom 10:11)

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

This shows a serious complex going on. You may be hearing voices, but not what you think. His words are so clear that one HAS TO work to misunderstand them.

What, now praying and listening for the voice of the Lord to guide you is a "serious complex"?

Yes, his words are so very clear....Matt 10:22You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

There WAS belief. The text says "having believed". But it seems you don't even understand those words.

I am not questioning that there was belief, I am questioning if one that once believed, but doesn't at the time of death (i.e., Templeton), or even one who hasn't died but doesn't want anything to do with the faith he once believed and is even militant against the gospel they once avowed (like Dan Brown, another former preach, turned athiest) is still saved and has eternal life. That one can trample on the blood that saved them and still be saved is absurd to the heart that loves Christ.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

However, Eph 1:13 speaks of "having believed", which is in the aorist tense, and clearly speaks of a point of time in the past WHEN people believed and from that MOMENT of time they were sealed with the HS who is a deposit who GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption. How can that not be eternal security?

Again, punctiliar action is the starting point of something actively occurring, i.e., believing. So while the aorist cannot say absolutely that the believing that started ("started" being the punctiliar past tense action implied) will necessarily continue, the guarantee represented by the seal is always predicated on the assumption that the belief started is continuing presently. Non-belief of any sort cannot be demonstrated as precipitating eternal life.


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

1) I didn't say eternal rewards, I said that the receiving of all the promises of God is future.

Which includes eternal reward.

2) If the actual reality of these promises is future, then we cannot actually possess it now in the present tense.

Doug

Eternal life is experienced in eternity, but the gift is given (how about this) in the PRESENT TENSE!! John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13. They all say so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I say that the rest of the NT informs the meaning of every other verse. The truth that those who are given eternal life will never perish assumes the truth that the giving of eternal life is to "the ones believing" in a present tense reality.

I've already explained this. WHEN a person believes, that IS the present tense. And it is at that MOMENT they possess eternal life.

This isn't complicated at all. WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life at that MOMENT.

Why do you keep insisting that the person MUST BE believing at the end of their physical life in order to be given the gift of eternal life? And what verse actually SAYS this?

(John 3:16, 18, 36, John 7:38, John 12:44, Rom 10:11)

Doug

None of these verses say that the gift of eternal life is given ONLY at the point of physical death to those who are presently believing.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that your grades in Greek class were less than stellar.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What, now praying and listening for the voice of the Lord to guide you is a "serious complex"?

Since you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 AS WRITTEN, but continue to FORCE meanings into the verse that aren't there, the voices you are hearing in your head aren't from Jesus.

Yes, his words are so very clear....Matt 10:22You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Doug

But you seem to ignore the obvious context.

So, here it is:

15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues.
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.
22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

The day of judgment follows the 7 year Tribulation. And that is the context for "enduring to the end".

Same as the other verse with the same words:

Matt 24-
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

So, in both contexts, the "saving" is in the context of the 7 year Tribulation. Hardly applies to everyone in history.

And, "standing firm" is a human effort. Or works. So you believe that man works for salvation. How sad.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not questioning that there was belief, I am questioning if one that once believed, but doesn't at the time of death (i.e., Templeton), or even one who hasn't died but doesn't want anything to do with the faith he once believed and is even militant against the gospel they once avowed (like Dan Brown, another former preach, turned athiest) is still saved and has eternal life.

I know you aren't arguing about having had belief. But you STILL haven't given ANY verse that supports your notions. So where do they come from, other than your own feelings and emotions and opinions?

Consider these 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I want you to focus on 2 colors.

The red words speak of having HAD believed. The blue words are the result of having NEVER believed.

What you still resist is that ONCE a person HAS believed, they won't be condemned.

These 2 verses prove that.

Both verses can be summarized by this statement:

Only those who have not believed will be condemned.

Those who "have not believed" have "never believed".

Once faith, always saved. OFAS

Once belief, always saved. OBAS

Once saved, always saved. OSAS

No matter how you slice it, the Bible teaches eternal security. From the MOMENT of faith.

That one can trample on the blood that saved them and still be saved is absurd to the heart that loves Christ.
Doug

You see, here is the heart of your problem with eternal security. It offends YOU. Your emotions, your feelings, and your opinions get in the way of God's GRACE.

And you can't stand the thought. That's the problem, totally. You either don't understand God's grace, or you don't like it. I don't know which. You tell me.

Bottom line: those who HAVE believed will not be condemned. That's grace. All the way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, punctiliar action is the starting point of something actively occurring, i.e., believing. So while the aorist cannot say absolutely that the believing that started ("started" being the punctiliar past tense action implied) will necessarily continue, the guarantee represented by the seal is always predicated on the assumption that the belief started is continuing presently.

No, that assumption is ONLY YOURS, not found in the Bible.

You STILL don't understand the limits of the present tense action. It has nothing to do with your "keep on believing" ideas. It means the MOMENT (present tense) one believes, they ARE saved, they ARE sealed, they ARE guaranteed an inheritance on the day of redemption. Why? Because they are God's possession.

Non-belief of any sort cannot be demonstrated as precipitating eternal life.
Doug

Of course not. What a silly idea. However, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 clears up your confusion. It is ONLY those who "have not" believed, or "never" believed that will be condemned.

iow, ONCE a person HAS believed, they ARE saved, ARE sealed, ARE guaranteed an inheritance, and possess eternal life.

Can eternal life die?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, punctiliar action is the starting point of something actively occurring, i.e., believing. So while the aorist cannot say absolutely that the believing that started ("started" being the punctiliar past tense action implied) will necessarily continue, the guarantee represented by the seal is always predicated on the assumption that the belief started is continuing presently. Non-belief of any sort cannot be demonstrated as precipitating eternal life.

One more thought about your opinion that there is a biblical "assumption" that "the belief started is continuing presently".

If that were true, neither John 3:18 or 2 Thess 2:12 could say what they do say.

Instead of "having never believed" they would both have to say "aren't presently believing".

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This is how it would read:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they AREN'T PRESENTLY BELIEVING in the name of God's one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This is how it would read:

and so that all will be condemned who AREN'T PRESENTLY BELIEVING the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So it isn't about 'presently believing' regarding condemnation, it is clearly about those who NEVER BELIEVED who will be condemned.

Your opinions are not found in Scripture.

 

[TibiasDad]

Which includes eternal reward.

The promises also include eternal life!

Eternal life is experienced in eternity, but the gift is given (how about this) in the PRESENT TENSE!! John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13. They all say so.

A gift given, but not yet experienced is inert! A gift given, but unable to be experienced until a certain point is a hope! Indeed, a certain hope, but a hope and a trust that the one giving the gift will indeed allow the experience to become actual! Let me suggest an example: As a pastor, I have officiated many weddings. We go through the ceremony, the processions, the vows, the songs, until I say "I now pronounce you man and wife," and then introduce them as Mr. And Mrs. Jones. They are now married, but only in a sort of promissory manner, because I, as the minister, must sign the official certificate and send it to the state so it can be entered into the official and legal records. They are not really married until that occurs, but the couple now live their lives with the expectation that I will and have completed the formalities necessary. In a similar concept, we are given (pronounced as having) eternal life but until we reach eternity, eternal life is merely a promissorial expectation that we must trust to be completed by the one who has the authority to make it actual! We are given the right to become the children of God (John 1:12), and thereby to expect eternal life will be our ultimate reality in eternity, and thus to live in this world as if it is a reality by faith and in faith that God will do what he promises. And all this is hinged on one thing, being a believer.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

One more thought about your opinion that there is a biblical "assumption" that "the belief started is continuing presently".

If that were true, neither John 3:18 or 2 Thess 2:12 could say what they do say.

Instead of "having never believed" they would both have to say "aren't presently believing".

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This is how it would read:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they AREN'T PRESENTLY BELIEVING in the name of God's one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

This is how it would read:

and so that all will be condemned who AREN'T PRESENTLY BELIEVING the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So it isn't about 'presently believing' regarding condemnation, it is clearly about those who NEVER BELIEVED who will be condemned.

Your opinions are not found in Scripture.

Okay, I'll play your game... If your assertions are correct, John 3:18 should read "Anyone who has believed at any point in the past (aorist punctiliar action) is not condemned" instead of "Anyone believing (presently and actively) is not condemned."

Use of the aorist in reference to those not having believed does not negate or mitigate the fact that present tense believing is the associative reality of not being condemned. It says no one believing, not anyone who has believed! Just because you once believed, does not necessitate that you are currently doing so, but if you are not now believing, then the first clause of John 3:18 cannot apply to you, for it says "the one believing is not condemned."

Doug