telling my parents

[FreedByte]

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[Girder of Loins]

I was being facetious. Some of the points(like the worship of Mary) is stereotypical. Not all Catholics place Mary on the same level as Christ(in fact, an abysmally small percentage do). Instead, they revere her as the mother of Christ, not in the sense that she is perfect(although a fair amount try to argue that), but out of respect that she is who God chose.

 

[FreedByte]

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[FreedByte]

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[Kurama]

I do not judge, I was born and raised catholic and almost everyone I know was as well. I have removed many a plank from my own eye in the process of becoming a non-denominational Christian. We both trust in Christ for salvation, and at the end of the day, that's what is important!

I hope you didn't take my reply to your post as antagonistic. You made a point that Matthew 16:18 supports the existence of the papacy and demonstrates that the RCC is the One True Church; I felt called to give a differing perspective. God bless you, I hope you are doing well!

P.S. I am happy to discontinue this dialogue if you like, seeing as you didn't want a debate

I'd like to first apologise for a lot of my ranting lol. Looking back, I think I was pretty much venting. Also about me saying ''worshipping Mary'', I meant to say seeing her as an equal to Christ, as you said that I would see her as sinless. Although many Catholics believe that she is sinless and the ''queen of heaven'', I do not. The Church is progressive, we do change...before we used to support the persecution of homosexuals, slavery etc, now we have adapted to the 21st century. We've even gone far enough to even accept evolution. Many Catholics, including myself, as sceptical about all the fanaticism on Mary.

Many of my Catholic friends wear Miraculous Medals (necklace with Mary adorned on it). I keep persuading them not to wear is since I believe that they are idolising her, but they tell me that they are venerating her by carrying her depiction. I think it would be better if they wore a cross like I do, Christ and His sacrifice are infinitely more important than Mary...

Anyway I respect your opinions and I would like to give some of my opinions. I can attest that the Catholic Church is far, far from ideal...there are many other denominations that I have a lot more respect for in their doctrine (notably the Quakers for their platform of love and pacifism). However my issue is that I believe in a universal church...one body, one faith...Europe and Asia Minor used to be Catholic, they used to belong to one body.

Politics and East-West rivalries created schisms. and the Church broke apart (the Church was also very corrupt, actually forcing people to pay a ''Heaven Tax''...horrible). The early Protestants wanted to create a better version of the Catholic Church (the Lutheran and Anglican Churches, which has quite a lot of Catholic traditions), but they ended splitting up and multiplying. There is no unified ''Protestant front'', there are just the 3500 denominations that disagree with each other.

I want there to be unity...I want everyone to be part of the same Church, the same body, just like Christ had ordered us. He did not want division and sectarianism, He wanted us to worship Him in community by way of the Holy Spirit. Thus I don't really mind about the Church making compromises and concessions, as long as we can become more integrated. This is what the Church has been doing these past few decades, leaving the path of elitism and finding common ground between other Christians.

With that being said, I do admire those who reject all the sectarian dogma and worship Christ independently (i.e. the non-denominational Christians). I suppose a lot the antagonisms between our churches are delusions to stop us from worshipping our Lord properly. I try regard everyone in an equal manner...we are all God's children and we should respect each other's beliefs. Jesus is the true leader of the Catholic Church, so my devotion to Him should be indifferent to any other Christian's devotion.

Anyway there's no need to have any further debate on this issue, though I thank you for the information given, it has made me question the Church quite a lot...

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

Mod Hat

Thread has been cleaned again. Just a reminder, this area is for those between the ages of 15-19. Posts from other members will be deleted.
Also, I might add, the OP posted this thread in March and has not been back since.

 

[FreedByte]

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[FreedByte]

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[Kurama]

You are correct; I know from experience that there are many catholics who don't believe certain things the RCC teaches. You had said you were a defender of the RCC, so I assumed you believed things like the sinlessness of Mary. Please note that I wasn't stereotyping and that Mary's sinlessness is not a stereotype but a doctrine of the catholic church:

I reject the belief of Mary's sinless life, though I accept that Mary must have been a righteous person in order to give birth to Christ. I suppose as to why I defend the Church so much, I'll need to provide my background...

I live in the world's largest atheist country. The Catholic Church is illegal here so we meet undergound. If the authorities find us, the local police beat us up in front of our families, to make us ''an example''. If we do not abide to the state's secularist law (which includes forced abortions and sterlisation, eugenics etc), we are deported to ''re-education camps'' (gulags) where we are forced to renounce our faith through brutal torture and labour.

Perhaps it is the amount of persecution that we Catholics receive in China that has made me a little militant. I might not agree with everything the Church is saying, but I feel that I must defend the Church because there are so many Catholics being purged all around me... We came together in accordance of friendship and tolerance, to spread love across China, and the state kills us one by one.

I don't know if I can forgive the CCP...and that already shows how sinful I am. The Catholics who are martyred in China do not put up a fight, they probably ask the Lord to forgive their persecutors (just like Jesus did) before carrying out their death sentence. But the CCP is just so evil...so evil.

Good for you! It seems to me that you are a non-denominational Christian at heart. You don't believe everything the RCC tells you; you simply want to follow Christ.

I think that I can say that I'm a Christian first, and a Catholic second! I nearly always just call myself Christian (mainly because I like having the word Christ, makes me feel closer to Him), Catholic is just like an adjective to me. Since Catholic means ''universal'', I'm a ''universal Christian'' (nothing to do with the universalists of course). I believe that we should all be united in common belief, it does not necessarily have to be under the Vatican.

I agree with you about the quakers, they are peacemakers! Once I saw the RCC's error, though, I knew that the One True Church must be unified not by any denomination, nor any set of church buildings, but through trust in Christ for salvation. There is still One Body in the One True Church, and there are people from many, many denominations in it: catholic, orthodox, and protestant alike.

I suppose that is the Church's goal to unify through trust in Christ. We do not want to push our views onto you, our goal is not actually to make you ''Catholic'', more importantly it is to welcome non-believers to Christ. Thanks to the missionaries of so many denominations working together, we have managed to turn Nigeria from a perdominantly Muslim nation to a demi-Christian one with a Christian president (who actually advocates a freedom of religion for a change ).

In the Catechism, it is noted that all Christians (Catholic or not) will of course be saved due to our belief in Jesus (that will never change, it is Christ's promise...not the Pope's). We also mutual respect with the Jews and Muslims, though I guess most denominations do (except the Westboro Baptist Church...they're always amusing to watch).

This is exactly why I don't adhere to any denomination; factionalism is sinful according to the Bible: Galations 5:19-20

It is sinful, for we are all children of God. This applies to not only denomination, but also country, race, culture etc. We shouldn't divide ourselves so much, we should look beyond the flesh and see the soul within (pretty allegorical but you get the picture). With all the wars and conflicts, this passage is being broken all the time.

As for the Church, it was predominatly factionist during the Catholic-Protestant conflict. Catholic France even hijacked the Vatican once and created the Avignon Papacy, in order for the Catholics to be more supportive to French interests. However I believe that politics and the Church aren't so close as they used to be, especially after Italian Reunification which saw the downfall of the Papal States (due to France not being able to defend the Pope due to the Franco-Prussian War) and the creation of present day Vatican City.

The Vatican now serves as an establishment for Catholics and non-believers to visit (at least we let everyone in, unlike in Mecca where you have to be Muslim to enter...quite a shame, I'd like to go there since it does look very beautiful). The Church remains apolitical, only striving for world peace and shunning extremist ideologies (such as totalitarianism).

I strongly agree with you about unity. I don't agree that the RCC has been striving for more unity recently. The immaculate conception and papal infallibility are recent doctrines and both are very divisive.

Well, as mentioned, I don't tend to really follow Marian reverence (but I still consider myself Catholic, the Church, hopefully, doesn't wholly rotate around Mary). As for Papal infallibility...if it were true, if the Church were truly the perfect Body of Christ, why is it that we've had so many bad Popes? Lol I'm not kidding, some Popes were actually beaten to death by the husbands of women who they cheated with! (Pope John XII met that fate..talk about adultery, guess John wasn't exactly martyred haha).

I agree!! Divisions that separate Christians are delusions, that's why the concept of the denomination must fall and Christians should be united back into a single Church. Unfortunately, it is a fallen world, so I don't see that happening until Christ's return and his millennial reign.

I also agree with what you said about devotion: followers of Christ are Christian, regardless of denomination!

Indeed, these delusions make us more divided. I suppose you're right, the Church's idea of uniting all Christians is too idealistic...regardless our life on earth is temporary, we'll all be united in Heaven. The church that Christ set up on earth was not supposed to be sectarian, it was supposed to introduce others to Christ and prepare for His return.

 

[FreedByte]

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[obrolord]

I live with my uncle. He is about as hardcore atheist as you could get. He knows I am a christian. He still puts down Christianity and God in my presence. I told him my views and he told me his and we came to an agreement to not talk about it to each other again, but he didn't keep his end of the bargain. It is incredibly hard to stay true to your faith. When someone you look up to is always shooting it down. Joking about it, poking fun at and telling you it is wrong. Especially when you have no church to go to any more. I find if you just tell them they will either be okay about it or not. Tell them it is your Faith not there's. You both believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins and that is what matters most. Also have you tried talking to God about it?