Tell me: Who is Jesus?

[drich0150]

"

You compiled?" Come ON! YOU added the word in there, and then use the word "compiled" to try and make it seem as if you didn't totally try to pass that word off as being PART of the BLB definition. Please!

Anyway, as long as that's out in the open.

Wow, have you studied anything outside of grammar school? When is research ever limited to one signal source material?

Is there a Greek in the house? Someone willing to actually explain if mothers have ever been called "woman." Or if it's respectable to do so?

That is not how it works. Two things you do not seem to understand. Not all words from the Ancient Greek have the same punch or meaning in the modern dialect. The second, there are several words in the Greek for "woman" Simply asking if calling your mother a "woman" is an insult? is foolish. You need to use the exact word Christ used, in the context it was given, while considering the time frame in which it was said.

Understand the bible was not written to you so the scenarios do not directly translate to the culture you are accustom to.

My head would literally spin if the answer to that was "yes." I would not only dunk myself in holy water, but literally back paddle in it for an hour.

Get couple lexicon/concordances and put on your trunks.


Jesus’ Mother and Brothers

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
​

He completely denied Mary as being His mother.

The word mother here is the close or intimate word for "mother" like Ma ma in the English. "Who is my mother" or Who is my Ma ma?

He says, and then follows it NOT by pointing to Mary, but rather His disciples.

He does not disrespect his Mother here. I simply refers to her in the formal or non intimate way. Because He is putting more value/intimate value on the relationship with his followers, rather than his birth mother. Which follows Christian Doctrine.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Can you explain what you mean by this? The context of Isaiah does not conflict with the context that supports Jesus regarding Mary as his mother.

This is what I mean: A woman screaming out in the a crowd that Mary is Jesus' mother does not mean that Jesus thought the same thing: that Mary was Jesus' mother.

I provided that verse to show you that what God thinks, is not what not what man thinks, nor what that woman thought.

 

[razeontherock]

Is there a Greek in the house? Someone willing to actually explain if mothers have ever been called "woman." Or if it's respectable to do so? My head would literally spin if the answer to that was "yes." I would not only dunk myself in holy water, but literally back paddle in it for an hour.

As Drich pointed out, you should be careful what you promise

“Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
[/INDENT]

He completely denied Mary as being His mother. "Who is my mother" He says, and then follows it NOT by pointing to Mary, but rather His disciples.

You should compile yourself a little list of things to ask a native Greek speaker, on this particular topic of Jesus referring to Mary as His Mother, or not. It is knowable, there are very knowledgeable people on CF re: this point, and a few can likely be found in a sub-forum specifically designed to debate them, here:

St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian - Christian Forums

Please do keep it respectful, just as if you were in their Church asking your questions. That's the way they look at it, and if you do so there are some great people that will engage you, very well.

 

[Hakan101]

This is what I mean: A woman screaming out in the a crowd that Mary is Jesus' mother does not mean that Jesus thought the same thing: that Mary was Jesus' mother.

I provided that verse to show you that what God thinks, is not what not what man thinks, nor what that woman thought.

I think you misunderstood that verse. The woman wasn't stating Jesus was his mother, that was already evident. She stated Mary is blessed for giving birth to Jesus. When Jesus responded, he did not deny Mary as his mother. He was saying that Mary is not blessed simply because she is his mother, but because she hears God's word and obeys it. This means that others, who aren't Jesus' mother, may also have this blessing.

That is what I mean, Jesus was showing that Mary does not have some sort of exclusive status just because she was his mother. For instance, Mary could not have been a thief, murderer, or prostitute and still be blessed just because she gave birth to Jesus.

 

[drich0150]

The word "mother."

Did you copy and past this EXACTLY as is:

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, mother, or married, or a widow
2) a wife
a) of a betrothed woman
​

Yes or no? Or did you ADD the word "mother" in between "whether a virgin" and "or married?"

No, I took The Strong's layout and married it with the Bullinger's. Because I changed the two I did not give a direct or single reference. If want to know where I got the definitions all you had to do was ask, and I would give you a complete explanation.

If you do any in depth study you will find lexicons like specific translations will tend to favor certain denominations. If you wish to remain neutral you have to use several different references. It gives you a bigger picture.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

You should compile yourself a little list of things to ask a native Greek speaker, on this particular topic of Jesus referring to Mary as His Mother, or not. It is knowable, there are very knowledgeable people on CF re: this point, and a few can likely be found in a sub-forum specifically designed to debate them, here:

St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian - Christian Forums

All I want to know is one thing. And you all know what that is.

Please do keep it respectful, just as if you were in their Church asking your questions. That's the way they look at it, and if you do so there are some great people that will engage you, very well.

Thank you, Raz. I'll be extra careful with my words. But even in saying that, the only time I get riled up is when I deal with such incredibly ridiculous people like Drich. He doesn't answer questions, doesn't understand what I'm saying, and then to top, he only cares about relaying his OWN truth. I honestly don't even know why I respond to him. Actually, I won't anymore. Is there an ignore button on here? Sheeeeesh.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

No, I took The Strong's layout and married it with the Bullinger's. Because I changed the two I did not give a direct or single reference. If want to know where I got the definitions all you had to do was ask, and I would give you a complete explanation.

If you do any in depth study you will find lexicons like specific translations will tend to favor certain denominations. If you wish to remain neutral you have to use several different references. It gives you a bigger picture.

"Married it..." WOW!!!!

I don't whether to love you or not, D. Seriously. You're a gem.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

I gotta headache. (Thanks, D.) Will be back later.....

 

[razeontherock]

St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian - Christian Forums

All I want to know is one thing. And you all know what that is.

Yeah, but already you see that "one thing" may not be simple. I used to use Strong's concordance a LOT, trying to arrive at improved understanding of Scripture. It's a pretty limited tool, because meaning can vary so much based on usage. A native Greek speaker is the way to go, if at all possible. And as Drich pointed out, since modern Greek is not necessarily the same, the person needs a thorough familiarity with the Bible. And Drich really is a gem!

 

[drich0150]

Here are three examples (more can be found even thought 1 example is enough) of the root in question being used to describe a MOTHER! (In the formal sense of the word)

So again when is a good time for you to be dunked?? I'll even arrange for you to be picked up at the airport!!!

strongs-concordance-1135 | New Testament Greek Dictionary for γυνή

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), born under law,


1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons each should be men of one woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), managing children and their own households well.


Titus 1:6 if anyone is above reproach, a man of one woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), having believing children, not open to the charge of debauchery or being rebellious.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Here's a new question: Why can't I stop responding to this guy? Anyone? You don't have to be Greek to answer.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), born under law,

Is it me, or it not embarrassingly obvious that God was referring to a WOMAN, as in a LADY. Are you implying that God meant "mother" in this verse? As in, "born of a mother?"

1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons each should be men of one woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), managing children and their own households well.

Again, what does this have to do with woman meaning "mother?"

Titus 1:6 if anyone is above reproach, a man of one woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), having believing children, not open to the charge of debauchery or being rebellious.

Speaking of a wife, not a mother.

God help me.

 

[Lindas Place]

God was in heaven and he created a person or a people group to be a royal son to bare his image… but each one screwed up.

What did Adam do? disobeyed
What did Israel do? disobeyed

God didn’t give up….

He was in a covenant with man… it had to take place.

Man has to do it, so God became a man, Jesus Christ, and does it for us.

God fulfills mans responsibility that man can’t do for himself.

God came to the earth as a human, whatever is true of man is true of Jesus… whatever is true of God is true of Jesus… God Man.

 

[drich0150]

If you do not want to be baptized then simply take it back or bow out.

Here's a new question: Why can't I stop responding to this guy? Anyone? You don't have to be Greek to answer.

Pride. "this guy" has bested you several times and He left you a spot where he seemed to have made a mistake, at an uneducated first glance and you are following this opportunity to ruin in hopes of finally being able to silence him. That Is Why You Can Not Stop Responding To "This Guy."

Is it me, or it not embarrassingly obvious that God was referring to a WOMAN, as in a LADY. Are you implying that God meant "mother" in this verse? As in, "born of a mother?"

We are following the "root word," or are you not familiar with basic translation? The "root" here is being used to describe a Female in the role of motherhood. therefore the root gynē can be used to describe a female who is in the role as a Mother.

Again, what does this have to do with woman meaning "mother?"

1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons each should be men of one woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), managing children and their own households well.

So follow me here.. If a Deacon is a Man Married to one "gynē" and She is to have Children..What does that make the woman married to the deacon??? Does it make her a Mother???? (Yes it does in fact make her a MOTHER!!!)

Speaking of a wife, not a mother.

Seriously??? Is trying to maintain you pride worth all of this foolishness?
Bottom line is you wanted to know Why Jesus Call His mother "woman" or rather the word in the Ancient Greek that can be translated into the word woman in the English. The answer is, When Jesus Spoke in the Aramaic The "Greek" was what was available to record His words. So right there you are losing some of the original context. But the writers obviously saw a need to differentiate between the Intimate form of the word mother and the Formal form of the word, so they used what their language would allow. So from the Ancient Greek to the English we loose even more of the original context. And from that time frame to this, the end result is YOU are clueless as to what is being said, or is actually going on without a little effort on your part.

That said, know Jesus did not address His Mother in a disrespectful way. The writers/translators have left enough of a paper trail to answer these types of questions, if one is so inclined to take the time and study. While I do not hold any formal degrees I have spent the better part of twenty years doing this type of stuff. (Studying, teaching, ministering, debating, and answering biblically based questions.) I do not generally "quote" reference material or even scripture because "you guys" tend to ignore it anyway, (I use to) as you all only seem interested in speaking to the philosophical aspects of religion. Know that just because i do not lead with reference material it is not lost to me.

If in the future you wish to know where I get something (for the sake of your pride) just ask. I am not in the habit of simply making up things to prove people wrong. Whether you like it or not or can even admit it or not what I gave you was accurate even if the one place you went for a reference wasn't.

I have said my peace, and if you have any more legitimate questions i will answer them. Otherwise know I am done with this topic.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Pride. "this guy" has bested you several times and He left you a spot where he seemed to have made a mistake, at an uneducated first glance and you are following this opportunity to ruin in hopes of finally being able to silence him. That Is Why You Can Not Stop Responding To "This Guy."

Yea', I know it's about "this guy" and not about "That Guy." Trust me. (Hint: "That Guy" meaning God)

We are following the "root word," or are you not familiar with basic translation? The "root" here is being used to describe a Female in the role of motherhood. therefore the root gynē can be used to describe a female who is in the role as a Mother.


1 Timothy 3:12 Deacons each should be men of one woman (gynaikos | γυναικός | gen sg fem), managing children and their own households well.

So follow me here.. If a Deacon is a Man Married to one "gynē" and She is to have Children..What does that make the woman married to the deacon??? Does it make her a Mother???? (Yes it does in fact make her a MOTHER!!!)

Seriously??? Is trying to maintain you pride worth all of this foolishness?

Don't attribute YOUR lack of understanding (which you suffer SEVERELY from), and me calling you out on it over and over and over again, to foolishness.

Calling a MOTHER a "woman", when she is not YOUR mother, is not what I'm asking you to show me. Jesus called every woman "woman", didn't He? Some of them may have been mothers, but they were not HIS mother. Don't you see where I'm trying to go with this? (That was rhetorical, by the way, 'cause I already know the answer)

Don't post verses that show me where a MOTHER was called "woman", but rather where a child called their mother, "woman." If there aren't such verses, then so be it. I'll create a thread in the other forum a little later and we'll see where that takes us (or me), but don't keep providing verse after verse of mothers that were called "woman", 'cause that's not what I'm asking for.

Bottom line is you wanted to know Why Jesus Call His mother "woman" or rather the word in the Ancient Greek that can be translated into the word woman in the English. The answer is, When Jesus Spoke in the Aramaic The "Greek" was what was available to record His words. So right there you are losing some of the original context.

Okay, so what is the original Aramaic word for "woman?"

...it is not lost to me.

It's not "it" that I'm thinking may be "lost."

p.s. That above quote of mine: "...but rather where a child called their mother, "woman."" Save me a migraine and don't say Jesus. Please.

 

[drich0150]

Calling a MOTHER a "woman", when she is not YOUR mother, is not what I'm asking you to show me.

I pointed out what you asked in great detail. you have yet again fail to grasp the depth of your own question.. Jesus did not call his Mother "Mother" or Woman. Because Woman and Mother both are English words. These words have parallels in the Ancient Greek but are not exactly translated or used as they are in the English. Can you understand this simple fact? If you can then we need to define the two words and how they would be used in modern English. (Which is what I have been trying to do with you.)

Jesus called every woman "woman", didn't He?

No.

Don't post verses that show me where a MOTHER was called "woman", but rather where a child called their mother, "woman."

Is that not what is being discussed? Where Jesus in the book of John Call His Mother gynē?

In case you read over that part i have conceded the point that Christ usage of gynē Displaces Him from a close or publicly affectionate acknowledgment of his Mother, and places that affection with His followers. That said this is in no way a sign of disrespect or a rebellious statement toward her. Because again Calling his mother a gynē is a General or rather a formal acknowledgment of who she was, and not a sign of disrespect.

Remember different time, different culture and your trying to span 3 languages. Look for period usages rather than culturally specific definitions. (modern/western)

but don't keep providing verse after verse of mothers that were called "woman", 'cause that's not what I'm asking for.

The reason for that was to put a stop to your witch hunt. to Help you see that the Word "gynē" can be used to describe any type of female including a "mother." Or did you forget the last 1/2 dozen post where you thought you had me for making up stuff to win arguments?

Okay, so what is the original Aramaic word for "woman?"

What does it matter when the texts are in the Greek?

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

I pointed out what you asked in great detail.

Drich, how much more obvious do I have to make it? Your "detail" does not matter to me. I couldn't possibly be further from acknowledging you as an authority on this subject. How could you not get that? Very, very simply put: I don't think you know what you are talking about. Not saying you're wrong, but other things you've said had me shaking my head in complete amazement at how far you'll go to prove a point (i.e.: ADDING things to a definition, digging so deep that your argument turns utterly ridiculous, etc), so try to see where I'm coming from with this.

Which is what I have been trying to do with you.

Stop trying. Please. Your help is not wanted.

Is that not what is being discussed? Where Jesus in the book of John Call His Mother gynē?

There really is no use. Someone needs to be there with you to help you connect the dots, because you plain out do not get it. It was old yesterday and now I just don't think I have it in me any more to explain things to you any further.

That said this is in no way a sign of disrespect or a rebellious statement toward her.

If an automated spam bot comes on here and spams apple.com, and in the midst of doing so, writes, by mere luck, exactly the same thing you just did, I'll consider what it said and not what you said because its credibility would be greater in my eyes than yours. Hope I'm being clear.

Because again Calling his mother a gynē is a General or rather a formal acknowledgment of who she was, and not a sign of disrespect.

Stop repeating yourself, I've HEARD what you have to say already. So no need to repeat the same thing "again." How is it not clear that I don't take your word as being gospel on the matter? And that it's not about me not understanding that you think it's not disrespectful?

to Help you see that the Word "gynē" can be used to describe any type of female including a "mother."

It CAN be used to describe a MOTHER, man, but the whole argument here is can it be used by a child when referring to THEIR mother. I say a resounding, "NO!" I speak a new version of Aramaic, and there is no way in you-know-what that I'd ever call my mother "woman" in my language. It actually sounds WORSE. 10x's worse than saying "woman" in English. I even asked my father if he would call his mother "woman" (back in the day, using our language) and he literally thought I was crazy for asking him such a question. He said you would call your WIFE that, which, yes, TOTALLY makes sense (because it can mean both "wife" and "woman" at the SAME time), but not your mother. Not only THAT, but he would call his mother exactly what I would call my mother, and exactly what I very strongly believe Jesus WOULD have called His mom (had He considered Mary His mom): "mother."

You say that BLB is wrong and then go on to add your OWN words to the actual definition (which I still can't believe no one here finds absolutely ridiculous) - well maybe the definition is RIGHT. I feel that it is. Maybe there WAS a reason NOT to include the word "mother" in there the way you so nonchalantly added it in there yourself, and then tried to blow it off as a "marriage." Goodness, I still haven't gotten over that.

But the reason I'm open to hearing someone else's opinion, NOT YOURS, is because MAYBE, just maybe, back in those days, calling your mother "woman" would be considered honorable. If you can't accept that, then so be it, but please stop telling me that it's "okay", because I don't trust your opinion and it's not you that I want to get my answer from. You read WORDS and think a dictionary will guide you to salvation - there are nuances that you just don't understand - that a dictionary will not explain to you. I'm not saying don't reply or involve yourself in the conversation, as you have every right to do so, obviously, but I would think you can respect when I ask you to stop telling me "it's not disrespectful to call your mother 'woman.'" If not for any other reason, then simply because I don't deem what you say as being credible.

Anyway, I'll gather a few things and post them in the other forum. I'm going to edit sound bites from the movie "Passion of The Christ" (and I can verify myself that there are two DIFFERENT words used) and will post them up in the other forum within a day or two.

 

[Emmy]

Dear CantThinkofaUserName. Isaiah tells of a coming Messiah, who suffers and dies for us! God chose a worthy Virgin as the Vessel to bring forth Jesus, born as human as Mary, the Mother of Jesus. While Jesus lived amongst us, He was human as we are human. Jesus showed us God as God really is: our loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back again. Jesus paid the Prize we could not pay, there was no-one left without sin or transgressions. Jesus became our Saviour and Jesus died that we might live. ( you included ) The Gospels will tell you how Jesus lived for us, and died for us. Two important Messages Jesus left with us. 1) " Unless ye believe as children do, ye will not enter God`s Kingdom." 2) In Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as ourselves." Love is of uppermost importance to God, and should be to us: All we say, or do, or even advocate, should be from Love to God, and love and care for our neighbour. Jesus is our Help and Leader, and He is The Way back to God, where we came from. When Jesus had finished His Work on Earth, and left His Disciples, Jesus told them: " Do not be sad, for I am going back to the Father, to prepare a place for you in my Father`s House with many Mansions." There is Jesus now, pleading our prayers to God: Jesus our Intercessor. Jesus is: God-Son, part of God`s Spirit, part of The Holy Trinity: God-Father, God-Son, and God-Holy-Spirirt. I say this with love, CantThinkofaUserName. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

oops, wrong thread.