Teleological thinking - common link between conspiracies and creationism

[Tinker Grey]

There is always a tension between Type I and Type II errors.

"More simply stated, a type I error is to falsely infer the existence of something that is not there, while a type II error is to falsely infer the absence of something that is. "

This is to say it is better for the species if its members run from non-existent tigers than to fail to run from existent tigers.

 

[essentialsaltes]

This is to say it is better for the species if its members run from non-existent tigers than to fail to run from existent tigers.

Better still to buy a rock that keeps tigers away.

 

[durangodawood]

This is to say it is better for the species if its members run from non-existent tigers than to fail to run from existent tigers.

Depends on how much of each we're talking about.

 

[tas8831]

People who question the validity of things often are more accurate.
The Power of Negative Thinking - The Atlantic

I totally doubt the validity of creationism, bible lore, etc.

 

[Halbhh]

People who question the validity of things often are more accurate.
The Power of Negative Thinking - The Atlantic

Ah, now that was worth reading, even for a read-anything person who finds a lot of so-so stuff that isn't worth continuing to read, like sifting though dirt for gems. I especially liked this:

"People who saw sad video clips before playing an allocation game were more generous with their partners than those who saw happy clips."

There's a reason that suffering aids us to become better people.

 

[Halbhh]

People are meaning-junkies.

If we cant find meaning, we'll invent it to satisfy our deep psychological need for events to form a story.

Hmmm...interesting. You know, one way to think about 'what is story' is that it's a basic function of the brain to try to find relationship between things, in order to survive.

Without understanding some causal or connection type relationships, we cannot last long in nature. We have to be able to associate a wolf pack with danger, or an Elk with food, somehow.

We need our intelligence -- tendency to find associations/relationships -- in order to survive.

Now the thing about any understanding is how well it helps you get what is good.

The best stories tells you something very helpful that makes your life better, and is a powerful aid to survival and flourishing, thriving.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The best stories tells you something very helpful that makes your life better, and is a powerful aid to survival and flourishing, thriving.

And just to make clear: a false story can have that effect as well.
And according to us both, that's been the case for at least 99.99% of "religious stories" out there.

The difference between a theist like you and an atheist like me, is that 0.01%

I say that as a species, we have outgrown the need for "stories" to drag us along and motivate us to get out of bed every morning.

In fact, I would even say that today, these "stories" are nothing but a hindrance.

 

[Halbhh]

And just to make clear: a false story can have that effect as well.
And according to us both, that's been the case for at least 99.99% of "religious stories" out there.

The difference between a theist like you and an atheist like me, is that 0.01%

I say that as a species, we have outgrown the need for "stories" to drag us along and motivate us to get out of bed every morning.

In fact, I would even say that today, these "stories" are nothing but a hindrance.

What is "true" or "false" in an instruction or way to live life? What's your definition? I know mine, but not sure what yours is, so hard to know what you meant.

For instructions on how to live life, for me, "true" means the way that is superior to every other way of all kinds, in terms of results, over time, in life. "Results" means to me key things that make life enjoyable and worthwhile and meaningful, so that one lives life with energy and feeling what you do is worthwhile, and enjoying typical days, more than one would with other ways to live. I extensively and at repeatedly tested for more than 10 years quite a variety of ways to live and be in life and standards of how to relate with others, choose friends, what to do with them, etc., so my results are from objective testing, first hand. Ask me if you'd like a list of various things I tested. It was somewhat of a scientific or engineering approach. I wanted to rule things out, by proving them less good than other ways, and did that extensively. What about you?

 

[DogmaHunter]

What is "true" or "false" in an instruction on how to live life? What's your definition?

Let's not pretend as if the story doesn't make claims about reality and gears a lot of its answers to questions like "how to live life?" directly from those fantastical religious assumptions.....

 

[Halbhh]

Let's not pretend as if the story doesn't make claims about reality and gears a lot of its answers to questions like "how to live life?" directly from those fantastical religious assumptions.....

Yup! That's why I tested it extensively against many other ways to live, of a wide variety, and did so repeatedly over many years of time. What about you?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yup! That's why I tested it extensively against many other ways to live, of a wide variety, and did so repeatedly over many years of time. What about you?

I just looked at current and past societies and how ideology and dogma shaped those, so that I don't have to rely on my own anecdotal biased experiences.

And I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't want to live in a society that is ruled and/or infested by dogma - religious or otherwise.

Instead, I prefer to live in a free secular society with the least religious / faith-based / dogma influence possible. Preferably, none at all.

Just about everywhere I look, whenever "just belief" becomes acceptable, it usually doesn't end well.

 

[Halbhh]

I just looked at current and past societies and how ideology and dogma shaped those, so that I don't have to rely on my own anecdotal biased experiences.

And I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't want to live in a society that is ruled and/or infested by dogma - religious or otherwise.

Instead, I prefer to live in a free secular society with the least religious / faith-based / dogma influence possible. Preferably, none at all.

Just about everywhere I look, whenever "just belief" becomes acceptable, it usually doesn't end well.

Did you say "biased"? Ah.... It's natural and inevitable that humans see in others what they themselves are doing. This is part of how the brain functions when trying to guess at other's attitudes/actions, etc. When anyone attributes guessed-at attributes to others we can reliably know they themselves have that attribute.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Did you say "biased"? Ah.... It's natural and inevitable that humans see in others what they themselves are doing. This is part of how the brain functions when trying to guess at other's attitudes/actions, etc. When anyone attributes guessed-at attributes to others we can reliably know they themselves have that attribute.

Well, I'm rubber and you're glue

Let's not pretend as if all religions aren't ultimately the acceptance of faith-based dogma to one extent or another.


Also, I'll add to this, what makes you "comfortable", does not make it true.
If the truth about reality happens to be a disgustingly depressing truth, then that's how it is. Pretending it to be otherwise just so can feel good, might make you feel good, but reality remains what it is.

So while I surely can make a case that a life centered around faith-based propositions is a bad idea, ultimately it is irrelevant. Because to accept a religion as accurate, as a good description of reality, it needs to conform to other things then "it feels good".

How it feels doesn't matter at all, when it comes to the accuracy of the claims.

 

[Halbhh]

Let's not pretend as if all religions aren't ultimately the acceptance of faith-based dogma to one extent or another.

heh heh. You can reimagine it however you wish, if that's more comfortable for you.

For me, I tried a lot of things extensively and well, at length, and reluctantly had to consider more than just the first saying of the teacher who's first saying I admired: "Love your neighbor as yourself". I'd have been comfortable to stop right there. Gain and done.

But that's not my habit. After that worked so amazingly well, then I had to admit there might be a possiblity he'd got more right than I wanted to think.

Even if that led in time to uncomfortable things.

Like "love your enemy" -- not at all comfortable, but the precise opposite.

Now, you could (I won't say 'pretend', I'll use a kinder word)....imagine...that's 'comfortable', if you insist on that, since you are free to think of things however unrealistically you like, of course. Seriously.

Hey, how about you answer the direct simple quesiton I asked above -- it's a really interesting one. In post #48.

Also, I love our American freedom, freedom to worship or not as you please, by your individual choice, without coercion. Let's keep that just as it is, when the future time comes Christ foretold, and it's easy to persecute people for their beliefs. Where will you stand on that day?

 

[DogmaHunter]

heh heh. You can reimagine it however you wish, if that's more comfortable for you.

So you are really going to deny that religions in general require a faith-based acceptance of dogmatic claims?

For me, I tried a lot of things extensively and well, at length, and reluctantly had to consider more than just the first saying of the teacher who's first saying I admired: "Love your neighbor as yourself". I'd have been comfortable to stop right there. Gain and done.

But that's not my habit. After that worked so amazingly well, then I had to admit there might be a possiblity he'd got more right than I wanted to think.

Even if that led in time to uncomfortable things.

Like "love your enemy" -- not at all comfortable, but the precise opposite.

Now, you could (I won't say 'pretend', I'll use a kinder word)....imagine...that's 'comfortable', if you insist on that, since you are free to think of things however unrealistically you like, of course. Seriously.

Again, how you feel about sayings / ideas, says nothing about the accuracy of all the rest of the religion you pulled those ideas from.

You do realise that the bible can contain good ideas on how to treat eachother while being utterly wrong about the supernatural stuff, right?

Hey, how about you answer the direct simple quesiton I asked above -- it's a really interesting one. In post #48.

What question?

Also, I love our American freedom, freedom to worship or not as you please, by your individual choice, without coercion. Let's keep that just as it is, when the future time comes Christ foretold, and it's easy to persecute people for their beliefs. Where will you stand on that day?

The same place where you will stand when Ragnarok comes.

 

[Halbhh]

So you are really going to deny that religions in general require a faith-based acceptance of dogmatic claims? ...

What question?

Yes for mine in particular, won't speak for others except to suggest not always.

What is "true" or "false" in an instruction or way to live life? What's your definition?
(Post #48)

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes for mine in particular, won't speak for others except to suggest not always.

You do not have a dogmatic faith based acception of let's say the resurection?
You don't believe the resurection happened?

What is "true" or "false" in an instruction or way to live life? What's your definition?
(Post #48)

Invalid question. Like asking about the taste of purple.
True or false would relate to claims the religions makes about reality, about past events etc.

Instructions how to live life can be good or bad ideas, regardless of the source from which they were born.

I can find good and bad ideas in all religions and cultures.
Or movies, like Star Wars. And it matters not if Star Wars is a true story or not. A good idea, is a good idea.

 

[Halbhh]

You do not have a dogmatic faith based acception of let's say the resurection?
You don't believe the resurection happened?



Invalid question. Like asking about the taste of purple.
True or false would relate to claims the religions makes about reality, about past events etc.

Instructions how to live life can be good or bad ideas, regardless of the source from which they were born.

I can find good and bad ideas in all religions and cultures.
Or movies, like Star Wars. And it matters not if Star Wars is a true story or not. A good idea, is a good idea.

Dogmatic to me means something like 'accept this becuase i say it, regardless of what Jesus said', so with that definition of 'dogmatic', I'm 0% dogmatic.

I asked my direct and clear question above in post #48 in response to your usage in post #47. You used the word "false", yourself. I'm asking you what is "false" or "true" in the context of your own usage, which you yourself are using.

I'd love to hear your answer on that.

↑
Me: "The best stories tells you something very helpful that makes your life better, and is a powerful aid to survival and flourishing, thriving."

You:
"And just to make clear: a false story can have that effect as well."


What do you mean here with the word "false"? What is "true" or "false" in a 'story'?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Dogmatic to me means something like 'accept this becuase i say it, regardless of what Jesus said', so with that definition of 'dogmatic', I'm 0% dogmatic.

Dogmatic beliefs, is the acceptance of certain propositions in unquestionable manner.

An example of christian dogma, is accepting the resurrection of christ.
It's usually a non-negotiable tenant of the religion. You can't be a christian and not accept the resurrection.

I asked my direct and clear question above in post #48 in response to your usage in post #47. You used the word "false", yourself. I'm asking you what is "false" or "true" in the context of your own usage, which you yourself are using.

I'd love to hear your answer on that.

↑
Me: "The best stories tells you something very helpful that makes your life better, and is a powerful aid to survival and flourishing, thriving."

You:
"And just to make clear: a false story can have that effect as well."


What do you mean here with the word "false"? What is "true" or "false" in a 'story'?

I just explained it, with the star wars example.

Star wars is a false story. It didn't really happen. It's fiction.
Yet, it might hold good ideas and ideals in terms of how to live. It might have a "moral of the story" which is good and worth remembering, or worth to live by.

Let's pretend that Jesus in the bible is the first time that the sentence "do unto others..." was uttered. That's not true off course, but let's pretend.

It's a good idea. It's a good idea, regardless of wheter or not Jesus was actually a real person. Jesus could be entirely mythical, and yet it would remain a good idea.

Because a good idea is a good idea.