Tekhlet

[The Thadman]

Here is an article you both might be interested in reading:

Law concerning existence of Hillazon


BTW Steve, just curious how do you tie your tzitzi? And how many strands do you use?

I have many sets and no two sets are tied the same:

I have a Sephardic "style" (they don't have the same number of strands) set done in blue and white (which are getting ratty due to use, so I need to wash them).

I have a Sephardic "style" (they also don't have the same number of strands) set done in blue and black (which I'm wearing right now and which are my favorite).

I have many sets that are tied in various styles I've created, some 2" long, some 3" some 6" which are either white or black tied with blue, using various braids, chainlink twists, multiple braided braids, windings, bindings, knots, sephardic knots, ashkenazi knots, etc.

I'm also constantly trying out new designs and ideas

I also, when I was experimenting with a new design, had one left over so I wear it around my neck on a chain.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[The Thadman]

Yafet,

Ok, I think I have this entire tekhlet debate just about wrapped up with what I have just come across online.

First, let's see where the first theory about Murex as tekhlet comes from:

Rabbinical Investigation – R. Isaac Herzog’s doctoral thesis on tekhelet named the Murex trunculus as the “most likely candidate” for the source of tekhelet – except that, by using contemporary dyeing procedures, its dye was not pure blue. ( http://www.tekhelet.com/timeline.htm )

Now what exactly is it that makes this beautiful color?

Discovery of Dibromoindigo – German chemist Paul Friedlander identified the chemical structure of the purple dye from the Murex snail as being 6,6’-dibromoindigo. ( http://www.tekhelet.com/timeline.htm )

Di-bromo-indigo.

That's two bromine molecules and one indigo molecule.

So what turns it into this beautiful blue? Remember the note about "current dying procedures"? One professor, Otto Elsner, realized that he could obtain the color by bombarding the snail dye with ultraviolet light.

Discovery of Process to Obtain Blue Dye – Prof. Otto Elsner of the Shenkar College of Fibers in Israel discovered the secret of producing a pure blue color from the Murex trunculus snail, thus solving Herzog’s most compelling difficulty. Together with Ehud Spanier of Haifa University, he investigated the photo-chemical properties of the trunculus dye and found that when the dye is in a reduced state (a prerequisite for dyeing wool), exposure to ultra-violet light will transform the blue-purple colorant (dibromoindigo) to unadulterated blue (indigo). ( http://www.tekhelet.com/timeline.htm )

In the {murex} trunculus, the purpurase reaction yields a mixture of dibromoindigo (purple) and indigo. The dye must be put into solution (usually accomplished by reducing the dye molecule) in order for it to bind tightly to wool. In this state, if dibromoindigo is exposed to ultraviolet light, the bromine bonds will be broken and it will transform to indigo, turning the trunculus colorant from purplish-blue to pure blue. It should be noted that the blue dye obtained from Murex trunculus is molecularly equivalent to indigo... ( http://www.borhatorah.org/article1.html )

Case closed.

We were both right: It is indigo, just from two different sources.

C[sub]16[/sub]H[sub]10[/sub]N[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]2[/sub] is C[sub]16[/sub]H[sub]10[/sub]N[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]2[/sub] no matter how you say it

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

It should be noted that the blue dye obtained from Murex trunculus is molecularly equivalent to indigo...

hhmmmmm.....

 

[simchat_torah]

I do apologize for having said anything crass or hurtful. My issue is this: there is something underlying this line of questioning all together. You know me, I am always up to challenge everything, every belief, and to solidify all that I stand upon. However, I sense things in this movement that disturb me greatly and these issues really need to be addressed soon before it leads to such things as antisemitism.

The question is not why this thread was created, but why was the question asked in the first place? I'm for asking the question... but why the question was asked is what bothers me.

I have many thoughts on this, but of course, it most likely would be stepping on toes and would be offensive. I'm really asking all of this as a big giant rhetorical question.

It isn't necessarily meant to be discussed, though I am willing (I would just have to choose my words extremely carefully). However, I am stating it as rhetorical... nothing more.

So, once again.... why would this be brought to a question?
When there is no historical evidence, when there is no reason to question, why would one be intent upon raising such questions?


why...

 

[The Thadman]

I do apologize for having said anything crass or hurtful. My issue is this: there is something underlying this line of questioning all together. You know me, I am always up to challenge everything, every belief, and to solidify all that I stand upon. However, I sense things in this movement that disturb me greatly and these issues really need to be addressed soon before it leads to such things as antisemitism.

The question is not why this thread was created, but why was the question asked in the first place? I'm for asking the question... but why the question was asked is what bothers me.

I have many thoughts on this, but of course, it most likely would be stepping on toes and would be offensive. I'm really asking all of this as a big giant rhetorical question.

It isn't necessarily meant to be discussed, though I am willing (I would just have to choose my words extremely carefully). However, I am stating it as rhetorical... nothing more.

So, once again.... why would this be brought to a question?
When there is no historical evidence, when there is no reason to question, why would one be intent upon raising such questions?

why...

The reason why I question it was because of three questions I, when looking over this entire tradition and Biblical information on tzitzit, had to face:

#1: Does tekhlet refer to a specific dye or a specific color?

#2: If it was a specific dye, how could the Hebrews have used murex dye if they were wandering around in the wastes for 40 years and Murex dyed wool was more expensive than gold?

#3: What else would have been available and readily abundant that the Hebrews could have known?

In asking these and after my final round of researching I had noticed that #1, unlike other places in the Tanakh where dye is referred to, tekhlet is treated as a color. #2: Murex would not have been available until after moving into Canaan (which is where it would be abundant) and even then, all archeological evidences that we have from Canaan show the purple version of the dye, and #3 Indigo grew wild, and the actual indigo content in indigo blossoms is purer than that found in Murex due to lower bromine content, and Egypt in Biblical times was known for its indigo.

Don't think that I'm an anti-shemite, akhi, nor that I would ever lower myself to such an opinion. May it never be! I am merely a critic of Rabbinicism; and Semiticism and Rabbinicism are not the same entity. My issue in this is the claim by the Avot that tekhlet -must- be a specific dying process when there is nothing in the Torah, in my studies, to indicate such a thing. The same with -how- tzitzyot should be tied: There is no description or requirement in the Torah other than they are to be twisted tassels and tied with a tekhlet cord.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Henaynei]

A very simple answer to "where did they get dye from snails in the desert" is this - the desert was NOT the abandoned waste land we see in our minds with various epoc movies in our memories to act as reference.

No, rather it was a very active commercial transportation system - merchants traveled it frequently, it was KNOWN as the Spice route - and the biblical account is replete with accounts of the numerous peoples and cities and kingdoms with which the Jews met and had intercourse throughout their travel. Dye was not the only commodity they were not able to gleen from the desert - they needed metal for their weapons, pottery for their cooking and so on. They traded for the things they did not have, as did all the other peoples, indeed, as we still do today

 

[Sephania]

Which "wilderness" do you cotton to Henaynei? Location-wise?

 

[Henaynei]

Which "wilderness" do you cotton to Henaynei? Location-wise?

Don't know that I could say - but for the purpose of the discussion it matters little - anywhere between Ramses and the Jordan