Tekhlet

[The Thadman]

I'm Sorry, Steve, but according to the Torah that just is not so:
B'Midbar

19:2 "This is the regulation from the Torah which ADONAI has commanded. Tell the people of Isra'el to bring you a young red female cow without fault or defect and which has never borne a yoke.

19:3 You are to give it to El'azar the cohen; it is to be brought outside the camp and slaughtered in front of him.

19:4 El'azar the cohen is to take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle this blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times.

19:5 The heifer is to be burned to ashes before his eyes -its skin, meat, blood and dung is to be burned to ashes.

19:6 The cohen is to take cedar-wood, hyssop and scarlet yarn and throw them onto the heifer as it is burning up.

19:7 Then the cohen is to wash his clothes and himself in water, after which he may re-enter the camp; but the cohen will remain unclean until evening.

19:8 The person who burned up the heifer is to wash his clothes and himself in water, but he will remain unclean until evening.

19:9 A man who is clean is to collect the ashes of the heifer and store them outside the camp in a clean place. They are to be kept for the community of the people of Isra'el to prepare water for purification from sin.

19:10 The one who collected the ashes of the heifer is to wash his clothes and be unclean until evening. For the people of Isra'el and for the foreigner staying with them this will be a permanent regulation.


So you can clearly see that *3*persons were made UNclean by not just the slaughter but the sacrifice of a CLEAN animal that they were very specifically instructed to sacrifice by HaShem. They were ALL unclean

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Note what the Red Heifer was a sacrifice -for-. This is the ONLY sacrifice whereby those who are involved become ritually unclean. Note that the sacrifice of the scapegoat requires washing, but the priest is NOT unclean, and there are other bovine sacrifices whereby the priest is not unclean.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[The Thadman]

Additionally, no one has dealt with the issue of where the Hebrews could have gotten the Murex dye wandering around in the wilderness for 40 years where indigo was abundant and easily grown (it grows in Death Valley, CA for crying out loud!).

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Sephania]

Forgive me if my memory is poor, but in most articles I have read regarding this and I am sure I have at least two to three mags in the house right now that have articles on this but I thought that the murex from which this dye is taken is found on the Mediterranean, and that there was only one family of Israel that knew the secret of making this dye. Something about the Hasmonean period, Maccabean times when Antiocus wiped out the whole family and the secret died with them?
And it's been "lost" until just recently? This begs the question if it was so prominent as you say and in possession of many other civilazations then how did it get "lost"?

BTW I don't believe that there is a commandment not to touch shellfish is there? Just not to eat them. Tell me it isn't so or else I have to chuck my whole shell collection and I think they are beautiful, artful creations of HaShem.

 

[brentsbaby612]

Forgive me if I'm rude.
This is all very interesting, but why does it matter where they got their dye?
Does it prove something that I'm missing??

 

[Henaynei]

Forgive me if my memory is poor, but in most articles I have read regarding this and I am sure I have at least two to three mags in the house right now that have articles on this but I thought that the murex from which this dye is taken is found on the Mediterranean, and that there was only one family of Israel that knew the secret of making this dye. Something about the Hasmonean period, Maccabean times when Antiocus wiped out the whole family and the secret died with them?
And it's been "lost" until just recently? This begs the question if it was so prominent as you say and in possession of many other civilazations then how did it get "lost"?

BTW I don't believe that there is a commandment not to touch shellfish is there? Just not to eat them. Tell me it isn't so or else I have to chuck my whole shell collection and I think they are beautiful, artful creations of HaShem.

You have a point there - camels and their hides were used in commerce, travel and making dwellings - no record of that making anyone unclean. Only if it had died of itself and not slaughtered.

 

[Henaynei]

Forgive me if I'm rude.
This is all very interesting, but why does it matter where they got their dye?
Does it prove something that I'm missing??

Yes, actually It has to do with *what* color the "ribband of blue" in the tzitzit was and should be according to scripture and rabbinic teaching Doing things correctly is very important in Judaism, rather than just doing it how ever suits our fancy and our own individual interpretations It is so important that when the ones who knew how to make the special dye died and no one else knew how to make it - the tzitzit were then worn without the blue string rather than use the wrong color - and sometimes a black string was used to signify that we knew that there was supposed to be a colored string but we did not know how to make it...... until recently when some folks have rediscovered a technique they believe replicates the original process -- so now, some groups are again using this blue in their tzitziot

 

[The Thadman]

Yes, actually It has to do with *what* color the "ribband of blue" in the tzitzit was and should be according to scripture and rabbinic teaching Doing things correctly is very important in Judaism, rather than just doing it how ever suits our fancy and our own individual interpretations It is so important that when the ones who knew how to make the special dye died and no one else knew how to make it - the tzitzit were then worn without the blue string rather than use the wrong color - and sometimes a black string was used to signify that we knew that there was supposed to be a colored string but we did not know how to make it...... until recently when some folks have rediscovered a technique they believe replicates the original process -- so now, some groups are again using this blue in their tzitziot

#1) Tekhlet is used to describe a varrying range of shades of blue in the Tanakh. It was used as the english word "blue" is used. Murex snails, in reality, make a purple or ruddy (not blue) dye and purple is differenciated from tekhlet in the Tanakh.

#2) To not wear blue in one's tzitzit breaks the mitzwot

#3) If "some folks have rediscovered a technique they believe replicates the original process" does this not "(do things) how ever suits our fancy and our own individual interpretations" ? They don't know for sure, and under this rabbinic thought, "Why chance using the wrong color?"

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Henaynei]

#1) Tekhlet is used to describe a varrying range of shades of blue in the Tanakh. It was used as the english word "blue" is used. Murex snails, in reality, make a purple or ruddy (not blue) dye and purple is differenciated from tekhlet in the Tanakh.

#2) To not wear blue in one's tzitzit breaks the mitzwot

#3) If "some folks have rediscovered a technique they believe replicates the original process" does this not "(do things) how ever suits our fancy and our own individual interpretations" ? They don't know for sure, and under this rabbinic thought, "Why chance using the wrong color?"

Peace!
-Steve-o

Steve, really I was not trying to take issue with you and your POV - I WAS only trying to explain to BB why it IS an issue

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[simchat_torah]

#1) Tekhlet is used to describe a varrying range of shades of blue in the Tanakh. It was used as the english word "blue" is used. Murex snails, in reality, make a purple or ruddy (not blue) dye and purple is differenciated from tekhlet in the Tanakh.

Have you not seen the Tzitzit that is colored with Techelet, and more specifically murex snails? Here is a pile of techelet tzitzit before it is tied:

It is clearly and obviously blue, no question about it.

#3) If "some folks have rediscovered a technique they believe replicates the original process" does this not "(do things) how ever suits our fancy and our own individual interpretations" ? They don't know for sure, and under this rabbinic thought, "Why chance using the wrong color?"

The same can be said in reverse achi.

 

[simchat_torah]

here's another good pic:

shows quite clearly the techelet made from murex snails.

 

[rooster]

The Great Snail Debate continues

If i'm not wrong this Murax snail(used to make Imperial purple dye) was one of the most valuable good traded by the phoenicians. The snail can make dyes across a spectrum of colours(from red to blue to violet) done by boiling the liquid from the rotting snail across a different period of time.
If it was made by phoenicians it would be quite a lot closer to the wandering Jews right? Although the Phoenicians were sea traders, it is quite possible that some enterprising semite could be peddling the dye across land routes to Egypt.
But if indigo was already in the desert........

 

[The Thadman]

here's another good pic:

shows quite clearly the techelet made from murex snails.

That same shade can be made with indigo, too

Additionally, was it not murex snails that were used to dye roman clothing? Specifically the "purple" stripe on togas?

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

That same shade can be made with indigo, too

Additionally, was it not murex snails that were used to dye roman clothing? Specifically the "purple" stripe on togas?

Irrelevant.

 

[simchat_torah]

how many shades can you get with indigo?


another irrelevant question.

 

[simchat_torah]

If i'm not wrong this Murax snail(used to make Imperial purple dye) was one of the most valuable good traded by the phoenicians. The snail can make dyes across a spectrum of colours(from red to blue to violet) done by boiling the liquid from the rotting snail across a different period of time.

Yep.

 

[The Thadman]

The same can be said in reverse achi.

How so? Blue is blue. I'd use blue.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

The reverse is... why chance going against the Beit Din, an institution HaShem possibly set up?

If we follow after something out of fear to *not* break a possibility, you'd not be questioning the Beit Din. However, you are. Thus, we can not follow after your possibilities unless we have something grounded, follow? How can you demand us to chase after a possibility when you yourself have not made the same committment? That's what I meant.

============================================

You see, by all historical accounts in Judaism, the Murex snails were used for the dye. The questioning of this only comes by way of those who declare all Rabbinical things wrong/evil. There is no evidence that tzitzit were made with indigo. none.

You may argue that Indigo was used in ancient times, and I may argue that Murex snails were used for dye in anceint times. But I have an upper hand in that I have acutal ancient sources that declare the use of the snails for the dye in Tzitzit.

The only step I have to take to follow your interpretation is to declare all things rabbinical... as evil.

 

[simchat_torah]

Additionally, no one has dealt with the issue of where the Hebrews could have gotten the Murex dye wandering around in the wilderness for 40 years where indigo was abundant and easily grown (it grows in Death Valley, CA for crying out loud!).

Tell you what, I'll choose to deal with that when you tell me how the Jews found shelter, clothing, firewood, food, medicines, etc... for forty years
HaShem miraculously provides. But that's besides the point. Could not the powdered dye be brought along with them?

All this question does is interject points of view based on skepticism, assumptions, and guesswork. Nothing along these lines can be answered with absolutes. Its all speculation... nothing more.

 

[Sephania]

I too have wondered about this with my questions above indicate, however I do not appreciate being lumped in a grouping such as this because I want to understand.

The questioning of this only comes by way of those who declare all Rabbinical things wrong/evil.

I have not, nor do I think I would ever declare all ( or even some) Rabbinacal findings wrong or evil. There are different schools of thought yes, but really.

 

[simchat_torah]

I wasn't speaking of you Zayit. I was saying that the use of Murex snails had never been questioned before until certain messianic groups rose up and declared all rabbinical things evil.

It seems the modern Karaite movement has done the same lately.

I'm not speaking of individuals at this point.