Tekhlet

[simchat_torah]

I was speaking more to the origins of where this line of questioning comes from. Sorry if I wasn't too clear there

 

[The Thadman]

The reverse is... why chance going against the Beit Din, an institution HaShem possibly set up?

If we follow after something out of fear to *not* break a possibility, you'd not be questioning the Beit Din. However, you are. Thus, we can not follow after your possibilities unless we have something grounded, follow? How can you demand us to chase after a possibility when you yourself have not made the same committment? That's what I meant.

Possibly? IMHO, I don't see that as a possibility.

If it -was- a possibility, I'd then have to ask: "Which Beit Din?"

The questioning of this only comes by way of those who declare all Rabbinical things wrong/evil.

The only step I have to take to follow your interpretation is to declare all things rabbinical... as evil.

Yafet, you -know- that's not my stance, and I do take offense at you pushing that fallacious point. Please take that into account when you formulate future replies.

Simply because I do not agree with rabbinic sources does not mean that I see them as evil. In the same strain, simply because I do not agree with you does not mean that I see you as evil. Furthermore I assume, that simply because you disagree with me that you do not see me as evil. Have I illustrated this sufficiently?

Peace, akhi!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

Yafet, you -know- that's not my stance, and I do take offense at you pushing that fallacious point. Please take that into account when you formulate future replies

I understand...
But, I also intimately know the inner workings of Karaite Judaism. I know its origin of thought. I know what it all boils down to, and I have a tendancy to be blunt

After all, that is why this thread was made, was it not? Had you not pursued Karait Judaism, this thread would not exist, nu?

Maybe you can consider it a wake up call.

Take it as you wish.

 

[simchat_torah]

But let's get back to the subject....

Murex snails, in reality, make a purple or ruddy (not blue) dye

I think I have clearly shown otherwise, nu?

 

[The Thadman]

[/font]
I understand...
But, I also intimately know the inner workings of Karaite Judaism. I know its origin of thought. I know what it all boils down to, and I have a tendancy to be blunt

After all, that is why this thread was made, was it not? Had you not pursued Karait Judaism, this thread would not exist, nu?

Maybe you can consider it a wake up call.

Take it as you wish.

Yafet, I was Karaim before I knew they existed!

I use the term Karaite as an adjective because I'd rather not make another word up for a concept whose title already exists.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

To say that they explicitly do not produce a blue dye is deceptive, is it not?

I would not care less if the murex snails produced pink, purple, yellow, green, orange, etc... as long as they also produced blue. It is this very blue that is used in techelet and I have shown you pictures to prove my point.

 

[simchat_torah]

Yafet, I was Karaim before I knew they existed!

Yes, as are many messianics. Talmud is wrong/evil, halacha is wrong/evil, etc.

I know all this already. I've heard it more times than I can count.

 

[Henaynei]

Play NICE everyone....................... ​

​

​

 

[The Thadman]

But let's get back to the subject....
[/font]
I think I have clearly shown otherwise, nu?

Murex can make a range of colors from blue to violet to red, and from what I have seen this turquoise color may have come after the times of Moses. Do we have evidence of this turquoise color on potsherds like we do with its purple and red cousins (of which we have hundreds of examples)?

This isn't a dare or anything, this is curiosity.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[The Thadman]

To say that they explicitly do not produce a blue dye is deceptive, is it not?

I would not care less if the murex snails produced pink, purple, yellow, green, orange, etc... as long as they also produced blue. It is this very blue that is used in techelet and I have shown you pictures to prove my point.

All archeology I have seen on this dye portrayed it as violet or burgundy. I think it's kinda cool that there is a way to make turquoise with is, but I haven't seen traces of this hue in any of my books.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[The Thadman]

Yes, as are many messianics. Talmud is wrong/evil, halacha is wrong/evil, etc.

I know all this already. I've heard it more times than I can count.

C'mon Yafet, there's a difference between wrong and evil. Please sheathe your words, they're getting sharp.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

Murex can make a range of colors from blue to violet to red,

as well so does indigo...

and once more, an irrelevant comment.

Do we have evidence of this turquoise color on potsherds like we do with its purple and red cousins (of which we have hundreds of examples)?

Yes, as I stated, Crete was a rather large exporter of Murex snails specifically used for blue dye to Egypt, what is now Israel, and the greater Medditerranean area. Even Egyptians began using Murex as a blue dye. Yes, indigo was used, but so was Murex.

Both were used (among other pigments). Which was used for the tzitzit?

All that Jewish history indicates, as far as we know from all documentation, is that the Murex snail was used for the blue dye in the tzitzit.

 

[simchat_torah]

C'mon Yafet, there's a difference between wrong and evil. Please sheathe your words, they're getting sharp.

Yes, there is a difference.... and I've heard both from Karaite and Messianic sources. They have nearly become synonymous.

 

[simchat_torah]

All archeology I have seen on this dye portrayed it as violet or burgundy. I think it's kinda cool that there is a way to make turquoise with is, but I haven't seen traces of this hue in any of my books.

Many vats, clothes, curtains, etc were made from Murex snail dye. I'm sorry your books are lacking

 

[simchat_torah]

All archeology I have seen on this dye portrayed it as violet or burgundy. I think it's kinda cool that there is a way to make turquoise with is, but I haven't seen traces of this hue in any of my books.

As well, from previous posts you seem to act as though this is a 'modern' or 'new' way to create the blue dye. Even the talmud even records that the techelet shade of blue was drawn from Murex snails for tzitzit, which dates at least to 400'ish ce, not to mention the sources it quotes are most likely circa 1st century.

 

[The Thadman]

[/font]
as well so does indigo...

and once more, an irrelevant comment.

Depends on what blossoms you pick and what strain it is. In the middle east, I would have to look up what strains were available as not all strains can make purple. You can't, however, get burgundy out of indigo.

Yes, as I stated, Crete was a rather large exporter of Murex snails specifically used for blue dye to Egypt, what is now Israel, and the greater Medditerranean area. Even Egyptians began using Murex as a blue dye. Yes, indigo was used, but so was Murex.

Both were used (among other pigments). Which was used for the tzitzit?

All that Jewish history indicates, as far as we know from all documentation, is that the Murex snail was used for the blue dye in the tzitzit.

In a sense you didn't answer my question The Murex found in Cana`an and Crete was purple and red in color. Where are the traces of turquoise?

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[The Thadman]

I'm retiring from this spat for the night as I need to get some work done before Friday evening.

It's like rock'em-sock'em robots for crying out loud. Good debate, though.

Peace,
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

In a sense you didn't answer my question The Murex found in Cana`an and Crete was purple and red in color. Where are the traces of turquoise?

There certainly were blue Murex snails. That's the predominant use of the Murex snails from Crete, to make blue dye. But you can also make several types of dye from the purple colored Murex snails, including turquoise.

*sigh*

I seem to be repeating myself a lot now.

 

[Sephania]

Was the same dye used for the curtains that of the tzitzit also?

According to this it was:

[size=+2]Techelet[/size] (te khe'let), the biblical blue mentioned 48 times throughout Tanach, was a specific dye that was used in various ritual textiles. Techelet was incorporated into both the ritual textiles of the Priesthood, Tabernacle and Temple as well as into the private ritual textiles of the common Israelite, in the fringes that adorned everyday garments, the bit of "priesthood" that adorned every Israelite.

All the "blue" used in making the tabernacle articles and priestly garments including the ephod use the word techlet. ( sEe concordance) http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/techelet.htm



Interesting photos of tecklet sources including this one: http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/techelet/dying.htm

 

[Sephania]

Here is an article you both might be interested in reading:

Law concerning existence of Hillazon


BTW Steve, just curious how do you tie your tzitzi? And how many strands do you use?