Teetotallers

[JM]

Please consider the words of William Kelly:

Use and Abuse of Wine, etc. WK was a fundamentalist before such a thing was ever thought of here in North America.

Peace.

 

[BalaamsAss51]

So what does he say? I've got no time to read all of that convoluted message. Please distill it done to a few sentences. Thanks.

Pax

 

[Jerrysch]

Please consider the words of William Kelly:

Use and Abuse of Wine, etc. WK was a fundamentalist before such a thing was ever thought of here in North America.

Peace.

There seems to be quite a number here who do not consider the doctrine of the gospels to be valid for us today, for their sake I will quote what Jesus had to say which might be of value upon this issue;

Matthew 15:11
" It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

I would be interested in anyone suggesting that this "doctrine" is not valid for "us today", to please state his/her case.

 

[JM]

So what does he say? I've got no time to read all of that convoluted message. Please distill it done to a few sentences. Thanks.

Pax

Ok, "here's to you!"

 

[eph3Nine]

There seems to be quite a number here who do not consider the doctrine of the gospels to be valid for us today, for their sake I will quote what Jesus had to say which might be of value upon this issue;

Matthew 15:11
" It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

I would be interested in anyone suggesting that this "doctrine" is not valid for "us today", to please state his/her case.

There are some things that are interdispensational...that is, they are true regardless of what dispensation you find them in. This isnt one of em...but it does support the right of someone to have a drink now and again.

We arent defiled as believers by anything...as we already have our righteous standing imputed to us by God. Many things come out of my mouth that possibly shouldnt, however, this will never affect my standing with God as I AM A MEMBER OF HIS BODY AND NONE OF MY SINS WILL EVER BE THROWN INTO MY FACE AT A LATER DATE.

 

[GLJCA]

Please consider the words of William Kelly:

Use and Abuse of Wine, etc. WK was a fundamentalist before such a thing was ever thought of here in North America.

Peace.

When someone tries to equate the use of alcohol with the abuse of alcohol they have to go outside of the scriptures and use an emotional argument. All through the Old Testament wine was used to bless God's people. When God blessed Israel their vineyards flourished and when He cursed them their vineyards dried up.
Joel 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
Joel 1:9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD'S ministers, mourn. 10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

What the opponents, of the moderate use of alcohol, do to try and prove their case is use an emotional argument instead of using a scriptural argument. They must do it that way because scripture does not back them up.

A good book to read on this subject is, "Drinking With Calvin and Luther:A History of Alcohol in the Church
or
God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says about Alcohol by Kenneth Gentry.
Both are very good books that will dispel any ideas that the moderate use of alcohol is sinful.

GLJCA

 

[Jerrysch]

There are some things that are interdispensational...that is, they are true regardless of what dispensation you find them in. This isnt one of em...but it does support the right of someone to have a drink now and again.

We arent defiled as believers by anything...as we already have our righteous standing imputed to us by God. Many things come out of my mouth that possibly shouldnt, however, this will never affect my standing with God as I AM A MEMBER OF HIS BODY AND NONE OF MY SINS WILL EVER BE THROWN INTO MY FACE AT A LATER DATE.

My point was that this is a point of doctrine which was revieled in the Gospels which is applicable for men for all time.

 

[eph3Nine]

My point was that this is a point of doctrine which was revieled in the Gospels which is applicable for men for all time.

And MY point was that the principle, when applied to drinking or eating in Israels program, can be seen . But to call it doctrine, and say its still applicable today, NO. We get OUR doctrine from Paul, not from Mt, Mk, Lk and John.

Doctrinally, we , the church which is His BODY,cannot be defiled by anything. Under the program to which this verse applies, they COULD be defiled by many things that they DID.

See the difference?

 

[Jerrysch]

Doctrinally, we , the church which is His BODY,cannot be defiled by anything. Under the program to which this verse applies, they COULD be defiled by many things that they DID.

See the difference?

Really, not by anything?

So are you suggesting that this doctrine which Jesus taught is not universally true? That only what comes out of a Jew's mouth will defile him/her, that if a Roman said the exact same thing that the Roman would not be defiled?

 

[Jerrysch]

And MY point was that the principle, when applied to drinking or eating in Israels program, can be seen . But to call it doctrine, and say its still applicable today, NO. We get OUR doctrine from Paul, not from Mt, Mk, Lk and John.


See the difference?

So, I almost forgot, how do you define "doctrine"?

 

[eph3Nine]

So, I almost forgot, how do you define "doctrine"?

Instructions given to we the Body of Christ, as distinguished from instructions given to Israel.All is doctrine, but NOT all is addressed TO us. There are principles that are interdispensational, but this isnt one of them.

 

[eph3Nine]

Really, not by anything?

Nope. There IS no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus....havent you heard?

So are you suggesting that this doctrine which Jesus taught is not universally true? That only what comes out of a Jew's mouth will defile him/her, that if a Roman said the exact same thing that the Roman would not be defiled?

You are trying to make an argument out of supposition....God came to EARTH to deal with the NATION ISRAEL. His plan for times PAST was that all the nations of the earth would be blessed THRU that nation. I would recommend that you study and find OUT just what God was up to. He has a plan for the earth and for the heavenlies...to RE establish His rule and reign which satan usurped.

What I AM saying is that Jesus HIMSELF told us that while He was on the earth, His instructions were addressed to and to be applied BY the nation Israel.

I am not told to apply Israels doctrine to ME< the Body of Christ. The RISEN Christ is the One to whom I am to listen, as HE gave HIS instructions to ME, a member of His Body, to His appointed apostle, Paul.

How do you think you are pleasing God by applying words NOT directed TO you? Especially when He has made it more than clear to WHOM he was addressing His comments while on Earth. With all due respect, it seems like its either a reading problem, or you really DONT see that the program has changed.

Something to think about. If the program hadnt changed, we would all be coming to God THROUGH the nation Israel. Do you see this?

 

[Jerrysch]

Quote

Originally Posted by: eph3Nine

Doctrinally, we , the church which is His BODY,cannot be defiled by anything. Under the program to which this verse applies, they COULD be defiled by many things that they DID.

See the difference?

Really, not by anything?

Nope. There IS no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus....havent you heard?

Forgive the compount quote, but I didn't want the context of this discussion to be lost....

Responce, So then Christians can be engaged in all sorts of things, is that what you are suggesting? Adultry, homosexualaty etc??? You seem to suggest that Paul was indicating that since we are saved by faith.... anything goes! Have you considered Romans 6?

 

[Jerrysch]

What I AM saying is that Jesus HIMSELF told us that while He was on the earth, His instructions were addressed to and to be applied BY the nation Israel.

I am not told to apply Israels doctrine to ME< the Body of Christ. The RISEN Christ is the One to whom I am to listen, as HE gave HIS instructions to ME, a member of His Body, to His appointed apostle, Paul.

One of the things I am trying to suggest to you is that Jesus presented some universal truths, that is truths which are appliclable for Jews and gentiles alike, but you will miss them because you do not consider the gospels to have any value for you.

 

[Jerrysch]

Instructions given to we the Body of Christ, as distinguished from instructions given to Israel.All is doctrine, but NOT all is addressed TO us. There are principles that are interdispensational, but this isnt one of them.

You know at this point in our discussion, I do want to tell you that I am not suggesting that all which Jesus spoke on has relavance to the church, I don't want that to get lost in this conversation, but to make a blanket statement regarding the lack of value of the non Pauline parts of the New Testament for church age believers, which I believe you are presenting is not correct. Granted there are parts of the gospels which do not relate to the church, yet to divide the scriptures with a meat clearer, as I believe you have done is not the best way, a sharp filet knife is what is needed. There are many universal truths which will be lost if you neglect the universal nature of some of the sayings of Jesus. Fon't forget that there were geltiles sanding beside those Jews who were hearing the words of Jesus in the days of His visitation,

 

[Jerrysch]

Instructions given to we the Body of Christ, as distinguished from instructions given to Israel.All is doctrine, but NOT all is addressed TO us. There are principles that are interdispensational, but this isnt one of them.

Upon what basis you you suggest that this is not interdispensational, and what "tests" do you employ to determine what is interdispensational and what is not?

 

[Jerrysch]

What I AM saying is that Jesus HIMSELF told us that while He was on the earth, His instructions were addressed to and to be applied BY the nation Israel.

I am not told to apply Israels doctrine to ME< the Body of Christ. The RISEN Christ is the One to whom I am to listen, as HE gave HIS instructions to ME, a member of His Body, to His appointed apostle, Paul.

Do you rember that the church, the Body of Christ (Body of Messiah) was for many years mostly made up of Jewish believers? The church was at its beginning not Roman.... but Jewish in origin. The gentiles as a group were then grafted into this primarily Jewish entity.

Many forget (I don't think you do), that the church was Jewish in its inseption, NOT ROMAN!!

 

[Jerrysch]

How do you think you are pleasing God by applying words NOT directed TO you? Especially when He has made it more than clear to WHOM he was addressing His comments while on Earth. With all due respect, it seems like its either a reading problem, or you really DONT see that the program has changed.

I am not suggesting that all the promices given to Israel apply to the church, yet I am unwilling to deny that there is any doctrine which is applicable to the church in the gospels. You know our salvation was original "bought" by way of the events recorded in the gospels, so it seems quite extraordinary to "close the book" in regards to the gospels which is the account of that salvation.

 

[Jerrysch]

Something to think about. If the program hadnt changed, we would all be coming to God THROUGH the nation Israel. Do you see this?

I am not sure to what you are referring to as the "program" but if you are referring to the Mosiac Covenant, yes it changed, it changed by way of being fulfilled. But the Mosiac covenant had nothing to do with the gospel of salvation. Salvaition/Redemption was always as a result of faith, not works, are you aware of that?

 

[eph3Nine]

I am not sure to what you are referring to as the "program" but if you are referring to the Mosiac Covenant, yes it changed, it changed by way of being fulfilled. But the Mosiac covenant had nothing to do with the gospel of salvation. Salvaition/Redemption was always as a result of faith, not works, are you aware of that?

I beg to differ. Judaism was faith PLUS works. They HAD to demonstrate their faith by DOING what God told them to DO. It is Pauls message that makes the change from faith plus works/Judaism to Faith ALONE in the finished work of Christ ALONE, by GRACE alone.


Please compare:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The first is the criteria under the Kingdom Program of works of the law.

The Second is under the MYSTERY program by GRACE thru faith in the finished work of Christ.