Teetotallers

[Jerrysch]

I beg to differ. Judaism was faith PLUS works. They HAD to demonstrate their faith by DOING what God told them to DO. It is Pauls message that makes the change from faith plus works/Judaism to Faith ALONE in the finished work of Christ ALONE, by GRACE alone.


Please compare:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The first is the criteria under the Kingdom Program of works of the law.

The Second is under the MYSTERY program by GRACE thru faith in the finished work of Christ.

In summary then, are you suggesting that those who were a part of the Mosiac Covenant recieved salvation/eternal life by a method other than faith. That is by faith plus something else? I do want to understand your position with exactness before I go any farther in this discussion.

 

[Jerrysch]

I beg to differ. Judaism was faith PLUS works. They HAD to demonstrate their faith by DOING what God told them to DO. It is Pauls message that makes the change from faith plus works/Judaism to Faith ALONE in the finished work of Christ ALONE, by GRACE alone.


Please compare:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I thought you didn't pull doctrine from any source other than Paul? Acts was penned by a non_Pauline apostle...Luke.

 

[eph3Nine]

I thought you didn't pull doctrine from any source other than Paul? Acts was penned by a non_Pauline apostle...Luke.

Im showing you the difference in the programs...to do that , I must show you what the rules were under the OTHER program. Are you reading my posts? wink....I use ALL the scriptures to study...we need to SEE the comparisons of the things that are different.

Things that are different are NOT the same...right?

Please dont try to tell me what I do and dont do...as if I ignore all other scripture for my benefit....geeesh.....all the scripture is for our learning , but NOT all of it is written TO us or ABOUT us.

Heres a cuppa tea....now, please just read what I said and answer. Do you , or do you NOT see a difference in the two scriptures I posted?

Huuuugs...Im not the enemy, Im just trying to establish what God is doing today.

 

[eph3Nine]

In summary then, are you suggesting that those who were a part of the Mosiac Covenant recieved salvation/eternal life by a method other than faith. That is by faith plus something else? I do want to understand your position with exactness before I go any farther in this discussion.

Please look at the scriptures posted and answer as to whether or not they are DIFFERENT. One says "worketh righteousness", one says 'NOT by works of righteousness". Hmmmmm....seems to me that scripture answered your question.

 

[Jerrysch]

Please look at the scriptures posted and answer as to whether or not they are DIFFERENT. One says "worketh righteousness", one says 'NOT by works of righteousness". Hmmmmm....seems to me that scripture answered your question.

Is there something wrong with a direct answer to a direct question?

In summary then, are you suggesting that those who were a part of the Mosiac Covenant recieved salvation/eternal life by a method other than faith. That is by faith plus something else? I do want to understand your position with exactness before I go any farther in this discussion.

All the requires is a yes or no responce, so that your view is represented clearly...

 

[eph3Nine]

Is there something wrong with a direct answer to a direct question?

In summary then, are you suggesting that those who were a part of the Mosiac Covenant recieved salvation/eternal life by a method other than faith. That is by faith plus something else? I do want to understand your position with exactness before I go any farther in this discussion.

All the requires is a yes or no responce, so that your view is represented clearly...

In YOUR view it only requires a yes or no answer.

This is not MY view being presented, but the one presented by rightly dividing the scriptures , as we are admonished to do in 2 Tim. 2:15, and the following information will make Gods view abundantly clear.

FAITH PLUS WORKS

Under Judaism, the plan of salvation is given in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Salvation is dependent upon believing (faith) PLUS being baptized in water. And so we have the formula- faith plus works=salvation. And when one studies the gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, this theme of faith plus works is repeated over and over again.

The best way to study the four gospel records is to study them chronologically. Then one can SEE how the faith and the works dovetail to form the Gospel of the Kingdom. The gospel of John is the most spiritual of the 4 records bevause he emphasizes the FAITH (believing) part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, while Matthew, Mark, and Luke emphasize the WORKS part of the Kingdom Gospel.

Now dont misunderstand me, NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DO YOU FIND SALVATION DEPENDENT SOLELY UPON WORKS!

The Bible does not teach salvation by works and neither do I. Under the Gospel of the Kingdom, the works were an outward indication that the individual HAD FAITH, and this saved him. There are at least two classifications of works in the Bible- the works of the law of Moses (Galatians 2:16) and the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19). The works of the flesh will get NO man into God's heaven. But God DID require under the Dispensation of the law, faith PLUS the works of the law for salvation for the Milennial Kingdom of God.


This principle of works continued up to the time of Cornelius in Acts 10. Peter began his sermon to the Gentiles in Cornelius' house by saying: "But in every nation he that feareth Him and WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted with Him" (Acts 10:35). The faith part is in verse 43, "....whosoever BELIEVETH in Him..."

James 2:14-26 is also in this same category. He wrote in verse 17, "Even so faith, if it hath NOT works, IS DEAD, being alone." The second chapter of James has long been a difficult chapter to understand. Putting it with the Gospel of the Kingdom give us the right meaning of what it says. James wrote his letter "to the TWELVE TRIBES which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1), and only Israel was divided into twelve tribes. This establishes to whom his letter was addressed, and James, in keeping with his calling, is really basing what he writes on another very familiar verse of scripture - one tha he could easily understand - Mark 16:16. Under THIS program, faith BEING ALONE, was dead.

According to the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD

Salvation is by faith PLUS nothing!

It is by pure grace because there are no works of any kind involved. "For by grace are you saved thru faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS , lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)

This is the Magna Carta of salvation in THIS age. It is faith and faith alone that saves a person today. This faith is to be exercised in a Persohn, the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. "But to him that WORKETH NOT but believeth on Him that justifieth the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)


Excerpts taken from "Christianity IS the Gospel of the Grace of God ; NOT the Gospel of the Kingdom" Robert C. Brock

 

[eph3Nine]

Jerry said:

Forgive the compount quote, but I didn't want the context of this discussion to be lost....

Responce, So then Christians can be engaged in all sorts of things, is that what you are suggesting? Adultry, homosexualaty etc??? You seem to suggest that Paul was indicating that since we are saved by faith.... anything goes! Have you considered Romans 6?

Why is it that those who dont have a firm grasp on GRACE, always assume that a "license to sin" is what is being discussed? Who needs a license, Jerry? You and I both do quite well without one, dontcha think?

Sinning isnt the issue any longer. Walking in newness of LIFE is! You arent listening, but trying to change the direction of the issues at hand. MY BIBLE says that under this present dispensation, "ALL things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient". Sin is STUPID...why would anyone deliberately go out and "sin it up" if they understood GRACE?????

 

[eph3Nine]

Jerry said:

Forgive the compount quote, but I didn't want the context of this discussion to be lost....

Responce, So then Christians can be engaged in all sorts of things, is that what you are suggesting? Adultry, homosexualaty etc??? You seem to suggest that Paul was indicating that since we are saved by faith.... anything goes! Have you considered Romans 6?

Why is it that those who dont have a firm grasp on GRACE, always assume that a "license to sin" is what is being discussed? Who needs a license, Jerry? You and I both do quite well without one, dontcha think?

Sinning isnt the issue any longer. Walking in newness of LIFE is! You arent listening, but trying to change the direction of the issues at hand. MY BIBLE says that under this present dispensation, "ALL things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient". Sin is STUPID...why would anyone deliberately go out and "sin it up" if they understood GRACE?????

 

[eph3Nine]

Do you rember that the church, the Body of Christ (Body of Messiah) was for many years mostly made up of Jewish believers? The church was at its beginning not Roman.... but Jewish in origin. The gentiles as a group were then grafted into this primarily Jewish entity.

Many forget (I don't think you do), that the church was Jewish in its inseption, NOT ROMAN!!

This is where you MISS it!

We arent grafted INTO Israels church. We are a separate, NEW entity...a NEW CREATION...one that didnt exist before. The church which was Jewish is a totally different gospel, different PLAN and purpose and different church. Please, read the thread on "the three churches in scripture" AND print them out as posted here in this forum. Study them. Then tell me that we are simply grafted INTO the already existing JEWISH church.

Nope, no way, NADA!

 

[Jerrysch]

In YOUR view it only requires a yes or no answer.

This is not MY view being presented, but the one presented by rightly dividing the scriptures , as we are admonished to do in 2 Tim. 2:15, and the following information will make Gods view abundantly clear.

My intent was to insure that I did not misrepresent what you beleive the Scriptures to state.

 

[Jerrysch]

Jerry said:

Why is it that those who dont have a firm grasp on GRACE, always assume that a "license to sin" is what is being discussed? Who needs a license, Jerry? You and I both do quite well without one, dontcha think?

Sinning isnt the issue any longer. Walking in newness of LIFE is! You arent listening, but trying to change the direction of the issues at hand. MY BIBLE says that under this present dispensation, "ALL things are lawful to me, but not all things are expedient". Sin is STUPID...why would anyone deliberately go out and "sin it up" if they understood GRACE?????

You stated that a christian couldn't be defiled, that he/she couldn'g defile themselves, I am suggesting that we can. Jesus stated that one way a person can defile himself is by what he says, you are suggesting that a christian is not defiled by what he says. You are suggesting this doctrine taught by Jesus is no longer valid.

 

[eph3Nine]

You stated that a christian couldn't be defiled, that he/she couldn'g defile themselves, I am suggesting that we can. Jesus stated that one way a person can defile himself is by what he says, you are suggesting that a christian is not defiled by what he says. You are suggesting this doctrine taught by Jesus is no longer valid.

The doctrine taught by Jesus on earth was to a different audience. We are told that we can grieve the Holy Spirit, but we cannot defile that which is a NEW CREATION. We are NOW something that we werent before...members of His Body. You cant defile something by sinning, as that sin was paid for 2000 years ago. Dont you KNOW what the Cross accomplished?

The doctrine that Jesus taught while on the earth , by His own admission , was to the Jew alone. The doctrine YOU should be worried about is the doctrine given to Paul for WE, the Body of Christ. It was given to him by the RISEN LORD. Thats the doctrine that is pertinent today. We arent under the doctrine given by the earthly Jesus to the Nation Israel.

Now that to me, is good news!

 

[eph3Nine]

My intent was to insure that I did not misrepresent what you beleive the Scriptures to state.

Lets see what the scriptures say:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Kingdom Program...faith PLUS works. James and John both ministers of the circumcision. Program of TIMES PAST and ages to come but NOT for we in the BUT NOW of the dispensation of the Grace of God.

 

[Jerrysch]

Lets see what the scriptures say:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Kingdom Program...faith PLUS works. James and John both ministers of the circumcision. Program of TIMES PAST and ages to come but NOT for we in the BUT NOW of the dispensation of the Grace of God.

I thought you said you only drew your doctrine from Paul?

 

[eph3Nine]

I thought you said you only drew your doctrine from Paul?

Come on now sweetie....you are the one arguing that its not faith plus works in the OT...so I gave you some OT verses to show you that it indeed IS 'faith plus works'.

If Im going to fast for you, simply say so. One topic at a time! NO accusations or smart cracks and we will be just fine.

I will use verses that speak to the issue at hand. Abel knew what God expected and he did it. Cain knew what God expected and he ignored it and brought what HE thot was "nice". God accepted Abels offering...why...because it was what God told him to do. Do you or do you not see the correlation?

Are we not discussing the issue of the FACT that it was "faith plus works" under Israels KINGDOM program? IF its not, then please counter with scripture to show me where I am in error.

Thank you.

If not, then theres no reason to continue. Dispensationalists do NOT throw out all the bible as we are accused of. Lets stop trying to trip me up and deal with the issues at hand, shall we?

 

[GLJCA]

Come on now sweetie....you are the one arguing that its not faith plus works in the OT...so I gave you some OT verses to show you that it indeed IS 'faith plus works'.

If Im going to fast for you, simply say so. One topic at a time! NO accusations or smart cracks and we will be just fine.

I will use verses that speak to the issue at hand. Abel knew what God expected and he did it. Cain knew what God expected and he ignored it and brought what HE thot was "nice". God accepted Abels offering...why...because it was what God told him to do. Do you or do you not see the correlation?

Are we not discussing the issue of the FACT that it was "faith plus works" under Israels KINGDOM program? IF its not, then please counter with scripture to show me where I am in error.

Thank you.

If not, then theres no reason to continue. Dispensationalists do NOT throw out all the bible as we are accused of. Lets stop trying to trip me up and deal with the issues at hand, shall we?

Paul also taught faith plus works in Eph 2:8-10.

He also shows in 1 Cor 15:1-2 that without persevering in the faith one can lose the salvation they thought they had, if they have believed in vain.

Paul also shows in Col 1:21-23 that your reconciliation depends on your continuance in the faith.

How come you don't mention these verses, EPH3? These show that Paul believed and taught just like Peter.

You know almost any outlandish belief can be proven by picking and choosing only the scriptures that agree with it. The key to having good doctrine is to prove it by looking to see if there are scriptures that contradict it. What I have seen is that you guys tend to ignore those scriptures and hold to the others. That is Marcionism.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

You stated that a christian couldn't be defiled, that he/she couldn'g defile themselves, I am suggesting that we can. Jesus stated that one way a person can defile himself is by what he says, you are suggesting that a christian is not defiled by what he says. You are suggesting this doctrine taught by Jesus is no longer valid.

Is this thread on faith plus works or on the use and abuse of alcohol?

GLJCA

 

[eph3Nine]

Is this thread on faith plus works or on the use and abuse of alcohol?

GLJCA

Good question GLJCA. If Jerry wants to talk about the OT criteria for salvation not being any different than the new, perhaps he should begin another thread.

 

[eph3Nine]

Paul also taught faith plus works in Eph 2:8-10.

He also shows in 1 Cor 15:1-2 that without persevering in the faith one can lose the salvation they thought they had, if they have believed in vain.

Paul also shows in Col 1:21-23 that your reconciliation depends on your continuance in the faith.

How come you don't mention these verses, EPH3? These show that Paul believed and taught just like Peter.

You know almost any outlandish belief can be proven by picking and choosing only the scriptures that agree with it. The key to having good doctrine is to prove it by looking to see if there are scriptures that contradict it. What I have seen is that you guys tend to ignore those scriptures and hold to the others. That is Marcionism.

GLJCA

Call it what you will...Paul NEVER taught faith plus works. You are mistaken in this your CRUSADE to debunk Gods MYSTERY truths. This is why most of us have you on ignore.

Have a great day. Hits the iggy button.

 

[GLJCA]

Call it what you will...Paul NEVER taught faith plus works. You are mistaken in this your CRUSADE to debunk Gods MYSTERY truths. This is why most of us have you on ignore.

Have a great day. Hits the iggy button.

That is all right. The people in Noah's day ignored him also.

My bringing out the truth about Paul's teaching bothers you I know because it reveals your wrong thinking and consequently wrong theology.

Have a great day.
GLJCA