TEC new creed

[mark46]

Our latest Prayer Book 'A Prayer Book for Australia' uses:

"Prayer Book for Australia

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial,
and deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
now and for ever. Amen."​

I am not sure why we changed "but deliver us from evil," to "Save us from the time of trial" I can only assume it was because the Lords Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 (NRSV) has something similar.

 

[mark46]

Perhaps you changed it because the translation is one that better reflects the original meaning.

What we call "traditional" means closer to 17th Century England and its English translation.

"Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil"

is traditional in that sense.
=============
In the past few decades, many have sought translations that better reflected the original language and intent, and better pastoral theology also.

LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION
There has been much written, which we can discuss if you wish. God does NOT lead us into temptation. At best, he allows us to be put to the test. This is closer to the original meaning. There are many newer translations used by those in many of the churches.

"But deliver us from evil"
This has been a very poor translation from the beginning. The Greeks have also said " but deliver us from the evil one", a much better translation.
=====
Let us look to the NRSV for the sixth petition
"and do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.
=====
See Kenneth Bailey's, Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes" (p 128-130) for a discussion of the Aramaic and what the original intent of the six petition might have been. One needs to remember that Jesus didn't speak in English. He spoke in Aramaic. His original words were translated into Greek and then back into Syriac (close to Aramaic). For a thousand years, we had Arabic bibles and commentaries.

Just perhaps, the newer understandings of this very important part of Scripture is as important as the words used in the 16th century, based on poorer translations.
============

 

[Theatreguy18]

Following on from points made in David Virtue, checking in , perhaps we could start a new thread to discuss this important initiative, rather than having it buried in a "welcome" thread. We can ask the mods to change the thread title if appropriate.

I am not familiar with TEC's new Prayer book, but I do recognise the need for new Prayer books for each new generation, as we are called to proclaim the gospel afresh and that means adapting to the local culture at the time, but without changing the fact that the Christian faith is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow.

Clearly the idea of a maternal god has been around for a long time, especially within paganism, but it seems that suddenly fluidity of sex is all the rage (in the U.K., for sure). It is amazing how many irreversible decisions are being made without a proper public debate, and that individuals are making life-long decisions without a lot of checks and balances.

It is right that we as a church take a leadership position in society in debating these issues, even right down to making new credal statements in order to make sense of the society we live in.

As an evangelical, it is important to me that Scripture is supreme. Whatever our creed is, it should be accurate to Genesis 1, John 1 and all the other verses that the Nicene creed emerges from.

The other thing is that we don't own the Nicene creed. It is shared by all orthodox churches. Coming up with a new creed will fracture the relationships we have with these churches as well as with other Anglican churches.

Is this proposed creed something that will be said in most services in most churches, or is it an alternative for niche occasions? Is it something that will be in an annexe of the prayerbook, or in the main part. Is it a bit like occasionally dipping into The Message as opposed to more traditional versions of the bible?

I adore maternal language for God it’s very present within the Bible in my humble opinion we should use male , female and nuteral pronouns ( the rock of ages , the great I am etc .. ) since God the “ father “ is a spirit. Many Anglican and Christian saints aused mother metaphors to speak of God ( Julian of Norwich , Heldigard etc .. )and not in the same way pagans did / do. I recommend you read she who is by Elizabeth Johnson wonder and in-depth discussion on the biblical defense for expanded Language and it is very rooted in orthodox Christianity.

 

[mark46]

There are many maternal and female images of God in Scripture. Wisdom is a feminine word in the OT. God is the female eagle who cares for us.

Perhaps, it is our societies that are at issue. Many cannot think of women being "in change" or have power. Many don't want women to work outside the home, certainly not is STEM professions where only 15% are women.

In the end, we can do much to change society. However, we cannot change the fact that God chose to send us his only begotten son. If we believe that if God chose to send our Savior to another society, God might have sent Mary, so be it. But, he didn't. IMHO, we can say the Our Father, understand that Jesus was male, had Caucasian skin (but rather dark) and still believe in the equality of all of us under God and in this world.

I adore maternal language for God it’s very present within the Bible in my humble opinion we should use male , female and nuteral pronouns ( the rock of ages , the great I am etc .. ) since God the “ father “ is a spirit. Many Anglican and Christian saints aused mother metaphors to speak of God ( Julian of Norwich , Heldigard etc .. )and not in the same way pagans did / do. I recommend you read she who is by Elizabeth Johnson wonder and in-depth discussion on the biblical defense for expanded Language and it is very rooted in orthodox Christianity.

 

[Theatreguy18]

There are many maternal and female images of God in Scripture. Wisdom is a feminine word in the OT. God is the female eagle who cares for us.

Perhaps, it is our societies that are at issue. Many cannot think of women being "in change" or have power. Many don't want women to work outside the home, certainly not is STEM professions where only 15% are women.

In the end, we can do much to change society. However, we cannot change the fact that God chose to send us his only begotten son. If we believe that if God chose to send our Savior to another society, God might have sent Mary, so be it. But, he didn't. IMHO, we can say the Our Father, understand that Jesus was male, had Caucasian skin (but rather dark) and still believe in the equality of all of us under God and in this world.

Jesus did not have Caucasian skin it would have been dark from the fact he was a middle eastern Jew and darker still because he worked outside. IMHO White Jesus images have been a tool of white supremacy often unknowingly but a tool nonetheless.

 

[Tallguy88]

Jesus did not have Caucasian skin it would have been dark from the fact he was a middle eastern Jew and darker still because he worked outside. IMHO White Jesus images have been a tool of white supremacy often unknowingly but a tool nonetheless.

Ethiopians paint Jesus as black, Japanese paint him as Japanese. Greeks paint him as Greek. Why is is bad that Europeans paint him as European? It's our living tradition and is just as valid as any other living tradition.

 

[mark46]

Jesus did not have Caucasian skin it would have been dark from the fact he was a middle eastern Jew and darker still because he worked outside. IMHO White Jesus images have been a tool of white supremacy often unknowingly but a tool nonetheless.

I am amused that you believe that those from the Meditation are not Caucasian. My suspicion is that you don't know the definition of the term. Semites, Greeks, Italians and others of the that region are Caucasian, as are Indians from the East. Of course, there are Jews in the region that are Negroid or Oriental.

And no, Jesus was not a Nordic European, but that isn't what we are discussing.

 

[mark46]

Ethiopians paint Jesus as black, Japanese paint him as Japanese. Greeks paint him as Greek. Why is is bad that Europeans paint him as European? It's our living tradition and is just as valid as any other living tradition.

When I think of European, I don't think of those with pale skin from Nordic regions. I agree that there is nothing wrong with folks thinking of Jesus having the same skin color as they do. The issue is indeed when all Europeans think of Jesus as Nordic and find offense when Jesus is portrayed as a Semite who worked outside, very dark indeed.

 

[Paidiske]

I adore maternal language for God it’s very present within the Bible in my humble opinion we should use male , female and nuteral pronouns ( the rock of ages , the great I am etc .. ) since God the “ father “ is a spirit. Many Anglican and Christian saints aused mother metaphors to speak of God ( Julian of Norwich , Heldigard etc .. )and not in the same way pagans did / do.

I agree, but just not for the Lord's prayer. There are lots of other great prayers and ways to pray, but to my mind that particular prayer ought to stay as it was given to us (or the best translation we can render).

Ethiopians paint Jesus as black, Japanese paint him as Japanese. Greeks paint him as Greek. Why is is bad that Europeans paint him as European? It's our living tradition and is just as valid as any other living tradition.

There's nothing wrong with that. The problem comes when that then gets imposed (through empire) on non-Europeans, and Jesus becomes culturally co-opted as an image of the dominant culture.

 

[Albion]

Jesus did not have Caucasian skin it would have been dark from the fact he was a middle eastern Jew and darker still because he worked outside. IMHO White Jesus images have been a tool of white supremacy often unknowingly but a tool nonetheless.

My, how quickly that term "white supremacy" has been picked up and used since the order came down only a little while ago.

 

[gordonhooker]

My, how quickly that term "white supremacy" has been picked up and used since the order came down only a little while ago.

Quickly? It’s roots go back to the earliest days of European and British colonialism.

 

[Albion]

Quickly? It’s roots go back to the earliest days of European and British colonialism.

Well, that one went right over your head, didn't it? The term wasn't created last month, but it has seldom been used in recent days, unless the reference was to specific fringe movements like the KKK which have a minimal presence these days but--as you said--were significant in the past as, for example, when the Klan ran the Democratic Party.

But the American Left decided in the past little while to start calling every opponent of theirs a White Supremacist or a White Nationalist, simply as a partisan attack line. Previously, they had treated us to "Culture of Corruption," "Millionaires and Billionaires," and other such catch phrases.

Once the decision is made, every politician and supporter on that side of the political spectrum works the stipulated term into his speeches. But this one, in addition to being false, is particularly vicious, IMO.

 

[gordonhooker]

Actually it didn’t go over my head but I am not a US citizen so I don’t get involved in Spy v Spy politics in the US we have enough BS to put up with here in Australia.

What pushes my buttons though is what we see internationally regarding the language coming from the current regime in the US, and some pockets of the Christian Right with regards to Social Justice, peace and integrity in creation. Currently all we can do is pray that it wakes up those thinking people in the middle and they do something the noisy extremes of both politics and Christianity in the country because what happens over their affects us all.

PS... for those who were not readers of 'MAD Magazine' back in the 60's and 70's - Spy v Spy were shorts in the magazine portraying a white spy v a black spy.

 

[Albion]

Actually it didn’t go over my head but I am not a US citizen so I don’t get involved in Spy v Spy politics in the US we have enough BS to put up with here in Australia.

Well, you'll have to forgive me for that one, but some Australians on these forums consider themselves to be experts on every nuance of American political and religious life since, of course, they saw or read some report from their perch at the opposite end of the earth.

 

[gordonhooker]

Well, you'll have to forgive me for that one, but some Australians on these forums consider themselves to be experts on every nuance of American political and religious life since, of course, they saw or read some report from their perch at the opposite end of the earth.

LOL - the issue is that these days we only ever see in the media the biases of those writing the article you speak of from both the Right and the Left, and it is exactly the same over here.

PS. the funny rating on your post above is because I know exactly what you are talking about... I know some of my friends in the Harley Davidson social bike club have all the answers for domestic and international politics and religion.