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Teaching Evolution to Evolutionists

Montalban

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So why do you think evolution excludes God but aren't certain whether gravity, electromagnetism, or weather excludes Him?

There's a difference.

Whilst you may think that God started evolution, and perhaps tweaked with it along the way evolution says that the whole process is natural/materialistic... whereas there's an active 'theory' that everything was created by God - all the birds, fishes etc.

I'm not sure that there's the equivalent theory in Christianity regarding gravity. I'm not aware of a body of texts from ECFs saying that God causes water to flow down a pipe everytime the water is in the pipe.

One can easily believe that God started off the process of gravity but with evolution it's different because the bible says God is creator of all the animals/plants.
 
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shernren

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Are you saying nature has a strategy? :doh:

Huh? I merely asked you how you would breed a particular group of pineapples. I didn't say anything about nature having a strategy or not.

You know, we actually take the effort to listen to what you're saying in your posts and respond to it. It would be at least decent for you to do the same - to say nothing of Christian love.

So yes. How would you breed Mexican dry-wet pineapples, and how would you breed Florida dry-wet pineapples?
 
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Mallon

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There's a difference.

Whilst you may think that God started evolution, and perhaps tweaked with it along the way evolution says that the whole process is natural/materialistic... whereas there's an active 'theory' that everything was created by God - all the birds, fishes etc.
I actually believe that God both started evolution and actively sustains it, for the Bible tells us that God is at work even today (John 5:17), and upholds all things (Heb 1:3). I don't believe that God intervenes only occasionally to direct the course of evolution because the Bible tells us that God is continuously involved in the world. Not even a bird falls to the ground without His allowing it (Matt 10:29). So I don't see that evolution is somehow a 'passive' theory, whereas creationism is an 'active' one, as you say. A creationist might just as easily hold that God created all life up front and has been hands-off since then (suggesting a very 'passive' God, I would think).

One can easily believe that God started off the process of gravity but with evolution it's different because the bible says God is creator of all the animals/plants.
The Bible tells us that God created EVERYTHING, not just plants and animals. So God could have created gravity in the beginning and has since remained hands-off (a 'passive' position) or He could be sustaining the force of gravity to this day (an 'active' position). I don't think creation/evolution is the special case you make it out to be. God either actively sustains all natural processes or He doesn't. I don't see how you can say God is involved in some natural processes and not others.
 
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Montalban

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Huh? I merely asked you how you would breed a particular group of pineapples. I didn't say anything about nature having a strategy or not.
You said that I would have a strategy. If me doing this is alike nature, then nature must. If it's not then there's no point to your analogy
 
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Montalban

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I actually believe that God both started evolution and actively sustains it, for the Bible tells us that God is at work even today (John 5:17), and upholds all things (Heb 1:3). I don't believe that God intervenes only occasionally to direct the course of evolution because the Bible tells us that God is continuously involved in the world. Not even a bird falls to the ground without His allowing it (Matt 10:29). So I don't see that evolution is somehow a 'passive' theory, whereas creationism is an 'active' one, as you say. A creationist might just as easily hold that God created all life up front and has been hands-off since then (suggesting a very 'passive' God, I would think).


The Bible tells us that God created EVERYTHING, not just plants and animals. So God could have created gravity in the beginning and has since remained hands-off (a 'passive' position) or He could be sustaining the force of gravity to this day (an 'active' position). I don't think creation/evolution is the special case you make it out to be. God either actively sustains all natural processes or He doesn't. I don't see how you can say God is involved in some natural processes and not others.

I agree with what you say about gravity, therefore I don't see the point of using it here.

It's irrelevant, because there's not, as far as I'm aware, a church teaching that requires that I believe God continually tweaks gravity, or whatnot. There's just no doctrinal issue here.

There is with creation.

There's also the implications relating to Adam, because without a real Adam making the first sin, we'd not have 'the Fall', nor a need for a saviour.

I'm not sure that the stars twinkling in the sky or water going down a pipe have to do with that.
 
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shernren

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You said that I would have a strategy. If me doing this is alike nature, then nature must. If it's not then there's no point to your analogy
Or I could genuinely be interested in talking about pineapples.

After all, you have little to no interest in what fitness actually means, but that hasn't stopped you from ranting for twenty-five pages about it. We've forgiven you much irrelevant discussion; surely you can forgive us a little.

So yes, how would you breed these pineapples? What genetic structure would you be interested in obtaining for the optimal product?
 
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shernren

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As a teacher I've learned that students learn best when they are able to do something for themselves, and see for themselves that some particular thing is right or wrong. Active learning is many times more effective than passive learning, but it presupposes that the student actually wants to learn. Unfortunately, many teachers assume that their students want to learn when they're actually comfortable with not learning.

I will not make that mistake. Montalban may have passed up an opportunity for active learning but that won't stop me from teaching him a lesson, anyway.

=========

Malaria and sickle-cell anemia are endemic to sub-Saharan Africa. Malaria is a mosquito-borne disease caused by trypanosomes, which are protozoan parasites whose life cycle includes a phase of digesting human red blood cells. Sickle-cell anemia is a congenital disease caused by a single SNP in a hemoglobin gene; individuals homozygous for the sickle-cell anemia allele have abnormal "sickling" hemoglobin that tends to over-polymerize, rendering red blood cells unusable.

The sickle-cell anemia allele is, after a fashion, recessive: that is, a heterozygous individual will only have sickle-cell trait, which is a far milder pathological condition, as this individual will have both normal and sickling hemoglobin in his or her red blood cells. However, sickle-cell trait confers higher tolerance of malaria, since the malarial parasites' life-cycles are also inhibited by the abnormal form of sickling hemoglobin.

It comes as no surprise that sickle-cell trait is widespread (~25%) in the sub-Saharan populations where malaria is prevalent. Indeed, in America, the prevalence of sickle-cell anemia among those of sub-Saharan descent is ten times the general populational prevalence. However, sickle-cell trait is also widespread in some Mediterranean areas, where malaria is not endemic - or at least isn't endemic now. But malaria used to be more common in those areas before Europeans learned how to fight it, and the genetics of these populations are only now changing to reflect the fact that malaria is no longer a threat.

=========

Montalban is quite right to say that there is no such thing as "nature" which "selects" for one trait against another. After all, the malarial trypanosome is as much a part of "nature" as the sickling hemoglobin in humans. But in doing so, he has misunderstood the term "natural selection" as much as he possibly could: that is, he has misunderstood the word "natural", and he has misunderstood the word "selection".

He is conflating the two meanings of "natural". Natural can mean simply "of Nature"; but it also means the opposite of "artificial".

So, shernren has a natural knack for bending over backwards to teach people who don't even want to learn. This doesn't mean that there is some entity "Nature" which causes shernren to teach recalcitrant creationists; rather, it means that shernren teaches recalcitrant creationists all on his own, without some other evolutionist - mallon or gluadys, say - telling him to do so. In this case, a human intentional action is actually "natural", because it isn't artificial.

He has also conflated the two meanings of "selection". Selection can refer to the intent of the selector, or to the demographics of the selected objects.

So, for example, a minor league baseball coach wants players who are strong over players who are weak. Therefore, he selects strong players. But he also unconsciously selects players who are born in the month of August. Now, did he want August babies in particular as compared to any other birth month? Clearly not; and yet, since his outcome consists of a disproportionate number of August babies, it is quite accurate to say that the coach has selected more August babies than normal, even if he didn't want to.

Now, is there a "Nature" entity that causes sickle-cell trait to be prevalent in sub-Saharan Africa? Of course not. But there is an actual entity that causes this to happen - the malarial trypanosome. The effect of the malarial trypanosome is "natural", not because it is caused by "Nature", but because it happens without artificial intervention.

And does the malarial trypanosome actually want the sickle-cell trait to be prevalent? Was there a Protozoan Committee which decided on a list of desirable characteristics for humanity to have or not have? (And when they couldn't agree, voila! The Cambrian Explosion.) Of course not. And yet, the action of malarial trypanosomes is such that a population which undergoes malarial infestation comes out at the other end with a higher proportion of sickle-cell trait carriers. Even though there is no conscious act of selection, there is still an effect of selection.

This second point bears repeating because it is insidious. Sieves do not want flour particles smaller than a certain radius to pass through it. Tsunamis do not want to only destroy weak buildings (and this is a Biblical example). MLB coaches do not want August babies. Employers do not want to employ highly-educated people (they want people who will maximize the profit per salary spent). And yet, in all these cases, selection occurs even without selective intent.

So, in short, natural selection is not Nature's act of selecting, but the natural effect of selecting. And if Montalban cannot grasp even that, then he has no business teaching logic to anyone, let alone to evolutionists.
 
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Papias

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Montalban wrote:

It's irrelevant, because there's not, as far as I'm aware, a church teaching that requires that I believe God continually tweaks gravity, or whatnot. There's just no doctrinal issue here.

There is with creation.

The point you seem to be bringing up is one often brought up by creationists as to why they object to evolution. Creationists claim that fields like physics (gravity), math, obstetrics, geography, genetics, geology, medicine, etc, are not a problem (don't need to be denied) because most Bibles don't speak about them - and hence findings in those areas don't "contradict" a literal reading of most Bibles. Evolution, on the other hand, does directly contradict a literal reading of Gen 1 (says that argument).

However, anyone even remotely familiar with their Bible knows that this argument is false. Most Bibles do indeed speak on these subjects, and a literal reading of scripture flatly contradicts universally accepted findings in each of these fields.

Let's look at them (and I can fill in verse #s later when I have more time)


physics (gravity) - Job clearly states that the moon and sun travel their paths by divine decree, not due to some atheistic naturalistic "theory" of "gravity".

math - pi is stated in the Bible to be 3, not 3.14159265.....

obstetrics - The Bible states that God formed us in the womb, not that we formed through the atheistic naturalistic development described by modern medicine.

geography - As we've discussed many times on these fora, there are many Bible verses that indicate a flat earth. There are exactly zero that suggest a spherical earth.

genetics - The Bible indicates that traits in offspring are due to what an animal sees while mating, never mentioning anything like "genes".

geology - Gen 1 cleary states that God miraculously formed the earth and sun (in that order), which is the opposite of what atheistic naturalistic geology has taught us about the formation of the earth and sun.

medicine - The Bible talks over and over (including Jesus's own words) about diseases being caused by demon possession. It never in any way suggests that germs or autoimmune responses cause disease.

biology - Gen 1 describes the origin of animals in terms of direct creation, it does not explain natural selection.

In all these cases, insisting on a literal interpretation puts scripture in direct disagreement with the widely accepted evidence. All of us can avoid besmirching the scripture by simply avoiding a literal interpretation. I still don't understand why creationists treat the last one any differently than the others (which they seem to be fine avoiding a literal interpreation with).

There's also the implications relating to Adam, because without a real Adam making the first sin, we'd not have 'the Fall', nor a need for a saviour.

As a TE, I fully support the idea of a literal, real, historical Adam, who initiated a literal, real, historical Original Sin (Fall of Man), thus giving the need for a savior. This has been discussed many times. One example is below. Montalban, since you don't seem to be aware of this, let me inform you that the majority of Christians in the world are in churches that support the idea of a literal Fall of Man in the context of theistic evolution. Does the explanation below make sense to you now?

*******************
One common TE position (and the one I hold, along with literally millions of others, including whole churches) is that there WAS a literal, first person, Adam. He was a member of a community, and was the first person in the ape to human gradual change. After all, there had to be a first, if there weren't humans 5 million years ago, and there are humans today – he was the first to whom God divinely gave a soul. Understanding how populations interbreed makes it obvious that all humans today are descended from him. Original sin did enter the human race though him, because he was the first to be divinely given a soul by God, and perhaps to be developed to the point of being able to conceptualize God, and hence to be able to rebel against God. The idea of Adam as a real, single, historical person, who brought about original sin, and who is the literal ancestor of all humans alive today, is fully compatible with, and an important part, for some, of theistic evolution.

Remember that there is variation, and that mutations are in individuals before they spread to the rest of the tribe. So as the whole community gradually evolves from ape to human, whatever arbitrary characteristic is used to define "being human", one individual will be the first to cross that line – including a line of “God divinely creating a soul” in one. Of course, all humans will be descended from him, just as they are all descended from others as well. Think of that mayflower club, which only allows members who are descended from the few people who came over from Europe on the mayflower. That club today has thousands of members, and in a few thousand years or so, literally everyone on earth will be descended from those on the mayflower. The same holds true for an individual, so long as they have a few kids. Thus, if you have a few kids, it is very likely that in a few thousand years, literally everyone on earth will be descended from you as well. It's all a mix. So, coupling that with the thing above about the literal Adam, it all works well.
******************

Thanks-

Papias
 
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Montalban

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As a teacher I've learned that students learn best when they are able to do something for themselves, and see for themselves that some particular thing is right or wrong. Active learning is many times more effective than passive learning, but it presupposes that the student actually wants to learn. Unfortunately, many teachers assume that their students want to learn when they're actually comfortable with not learning.

I will not make that mistake. Montalban may have passed up an opportunity for active learning but that won't stop me from teaching him a lesson, anyway.
What relevance does me choosing attributes have to do with nature that doesn't 'choose'? Second time I've asked

Montalban is quite right to say that there is no such thing as "nature" which "selects" for one trait against another. After all, the malarial trypanosome is as much a part of "nature" as the sickling hemoglobin in humans. But in doing so, he has misunderstood the term "natural selection" as much as he possibly could: that is, he has misunderstood the word "natural", and he has misunderstood the word "selection".
That's a misrepresentation. I've not been arguing that at all. I've said that nature DOES NOT SELECT in the manner of a breeder doing so, therefore the analogy of a breeder is a poor one
He is conflating the two meanings of "natural". Natural can mean simply "of Nature"; but it also means the opposite of "artificial".
And artifice means made up, which is what you do with argument.
So, shernren has a natural knack for bending over backwards to teach people who don't even want to learn. This doesn't mean that there is some entity "Nature" which causes shernren to teach recalcitrant creationists; rather, it means that shernren teaches recalcitrant creationists all on his own, without some other evolutionist - mallon or gluadys, say - telling him to do so. In this case, a human intentional action is actually "natural", because it isn't artificial.
That's another poor analogy.

Whilst you might have it in your nature to bend over backwards, nature doesn't make you do so. You choose to do so, and that's you choosing. You can choose to do things within your nature.

He has also conflated the two meanings of "selection". Selection can refer to the intent of the selector, or to the demographics of the selected objects.
No. You have attempted to do so by making bending backwards of your choosing confused with the ability to bend backwards which may be in your nature

Good luck with your teaching ;) :wave:
 
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Montalban

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A classic case of illogic...
math - pi is stated in the Bible to be 3, not 3.14159265.....

Does the Bible say "This is the law of maths", or is this simply what people did?

The Bible also has Lot sleeping with his daughters. I'm not aware that it says "Do this..." so it would be irrelevant to bring this up in an argument about behaviours we should follow as your example is irrelevant in a discussion about science we should believe in.

I don't cringe at what's in the Bible.
 
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Mallon

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Cite me a question I've not answered
I can think of three of the top of my head. I asked you earlier why you reject natural selection, and you refused to respond. Shernren asked you his pineapple question, and you refused to respond. I asked you to comment on how God involves Himself in natural processes, and you refused to respond (well, to be fair, you said, "I don't know", which is valid, although I'm still confused about how you can then be so sure that evolution necessarily excludes God).
 
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Montalban

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I can think of three of the top of my head. I asked you earlier why you reject natural selection, and you refused to respond.
I responded. It's off-topic. That's my response.

We've already ventured enough times into off-topic issues.

Shernren asked you his pineapple question, and you refused to respond.
I responded to that too. It's also irrelevant - at least he's not shown how. He gave an extensive attempt to show how I've confused 'natural' etc. but I've responded to that at length. You may have missed that.

I asked you to comment on how God involves Himself in natural processes, and you refused to respond

I still don't know. :D

The reason I know about evolution is because I know what the church teaches. My church has no teachings on why water runs down a pipe. Maybe yours does, or you know of Orthodox teaching on the matter that I'm not aware of.

However if you think that my responses to irrelevant questions is avoiding questions, then I can see your point.
 
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Montalban

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Montalban wrote:
If you use the quote function, you won't have to keep saying this

Now I've got a bit more time, I'll deal with two more of your apologies...

geography - As we've discussed many times on these fora, there are many Bible verses that indicate a flat earth. There are exactly zero that suggest a spherical earth.

The Australian Bureau of Meterology has a site to help me calculate sunrise and sunset (here)

Ignoring the figures of speech here I'll condemn them as being totally unscientific because we know the sun doesn't actually rise

geology - Gen 1 cleary states that God miraculously formed the earth and sun (in that order), which is the opposite of what atheistic naturalistic geology has taught us about the formation of the earth and sun.
Miracles seem to be irrational, beyond sense. I take it you don't believe in God, who exists beyond natural laws?

Like Jesus rising from the dead 3 days later
 
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shernren

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That's a misrepresentation. I've not been arguing that at all. I've said that nature DOES NOT SELECT in the manner of a breeder doing so, therefore the analogy of a breeder is a poor one.

If I asked you the following question:

"Is there an entity 'nature' which 'selects' for one trait against another?"

how would you answer?

If you answer "no", then I have accurately stated your views in the sentence "Montalban is quite right to say that there is no such thing as 'nature' which 'selects' for one trait against another." Hence your charge of misrepresentation would be inaccurate. (And unfortunate - I was agreeing that there is no such entity!)

If you answer "yes", then I'm interested to know how exactly you think nature selects for one trait against another.
 
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shernren

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I don't believe that there's a mind behind nature selecting.

That's why I don't see how it relates to a breeder selecting.
Let's say I have a mixture of baseballs and basketballs and need to separate them.

I could hire you to pick out all the baseballs and put them in one pile.

Or I could get a basket with holes that are bigger than baseballs but smaller than basketballs, and put all the balls into that basket, and let the baseballs come out the holes and the basketballs stay in the basket.

Does the basket's lack of a mind in any way change the outcome of there being one pile of baseballs and one pile of basketballs?
 
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