Teach Them to Be Keeping ALL.

[Leaf473]

Rather What they think the meaning is

True! But of course that's what a paraphrase is, an attempt to render the meaning in the best way.

 

[HIM]

True! But of course that's what a paraphrase is, an attempt to render the meaning in the best way.

As understood by the paraphraser. Which is a issue due to our own bias, preconceived notions and the lack of understanding.

 

[HIM]

For a literal translation, you are correct. But many paraphrases use Under to communicate the meaning of the passage in English.

Romans 3:19 - Bible Gateway

And they would be wrong. If Paul meant under the law he would have said it like he did elsewhere in numerous places. He said in the law and that is what he meant.

 

[Leaf473]

As understood by the paraphraser. Which is a issue due to our own bias, preconceived notions and the lack of understanding.

True. At the same time, a more literal translation puts more burden on the reader to reconstruct the meaning of the original author. And the reader, of course, will have their own set of biases and notions.

Language is more than a set of words with definitions imo. I think it's good to use both literal translations and paraphrases.

One good example occurred earlier in this thread. When Jesus talks about heaven and earth passing away, is he using an idiom?

Peace, my man! Great conversation.

 

[Leaf473]

And they would be wrong. If Paul meant under the law he would have said it like he did elsewhere in numerous places. He said in the law and that is what he meant.

Of course there can be differences of opinion about meaning. That even happens between native speakers of the same language.

But let's not lose sight of the train of thought, here. What I was saying earlier was that if one is going to talk about Romans 3:19 in a thread devoted to Paul's use of the phrase Under the law, it's probably good to say that in the original language, it's a different wording than it is in Galatians.

And I think we agree there.

 

[HIM]

Of course there can be differences of opinion about meaning. That even happens between native speakers of the same language.

But let's not lose sight of the train of thought, here. What I was saying earlier was that if one is going to talk about Romans 3:19 in a thread devoted to Paul's use of the phrase Under the law, it's probably good to say that in the original language, it's a different wording than it is in Galatians.

And I think we agree there.

Yeah, "in the Law" is not the same as "under the Law".
Now what is the difference?

 

[Leaf473]

Yeah, "in the Law" is not the same as "under the Law".
Now what is the difference?

Well, given that the Greek preposition ἐν is kind of a general preposition that can mean several different related things,
Strong's Greek: 1722. ἐν (en) -- in, on, at, by, with

and that Paul has been contrasting Jews and gentiles,

I think when he writes ἐν τῷ νόμῳ, he's referring to Jews and proselytes, those who have some access to the law and have been making at least some attempt to follow it.

But ὑπὸ νόμον in Galatians means Obligated to do the things prescribed in the law.

Thus, Jesus was born obligated to do the law. Some people in Galatia wanted to be obligated to do the law. Those who walk by the Spirit are not obligated to do the law.

 

[HIM]

True. At the same time, a more literal translation puts more burden on the reader to reconstruct the meaning of the original author. And the reader, of course, will have their own set of biases and notions.

Language is more than a set of words with definitions imo. I think it's good to use both literal translations and paraphrases.

One good example occurred earlier in this thread. When Jesus talks about heaven and earth passing away, is he using an idiom?

Peace, my man! Great conversation.

We disagree in general. As you probably agree, Without God's Spirit we will understand and accept nothing that is of Him. But If we would witness to someone in respect to having a good Bible we would tell them that Paraphrases should be avoided like the plague and to grab at interlinear first, and then A direct translation and a literal translation. And above all else pray without ceasing. Especially during devotion.
And No it is not an idiom. Heaven and earth as we know it will be no more. The Greek word for Pass has a broad meaning and the definition of it depends on the context. Are you familiar with BDAG Lexicon? I noticed that you have mention the Greek from time to time. If you don't have it we recommend it you should get it if you have the resources. However Thayer's unabridged lexicon can be had for free and it is almost as good. Anyway Here is their citation:

παρέρχομαι mid. dep.; fut. παρελεύσομαι; 2 aor. παρῆλθον, impv. in H. Gk. παρελθάτω Mt 26:39 (also v.l. -ετω; B-D-F §81, 3; Mlt-H. 209); pf. παρελήλυθα (Hom.+).
to go past a reference point, go by, pass by w. acc. someone or someth. (Aelian, VH 2, 35; Lucian, Merc. Cond. 15) an animal Hv 4, 1, 9; 4, 2, 1; a place Papias (3, 3). Of Jesus and his disciples on the lake: ἤθελεν παρελθεῖν αὐτούς Mk 6:48 (s. HWindisch, NThT 9, 1920, 298–308; GEysinga, ibid. 15, 1926, 221–29 al.; Lohmeyer s.v. παράγω 3; BvanIersel, in The Four Gospels, Neirynck Festschr., ed. FvanSegbroeck et al. ’92, II 1065–76). διὰ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἐκείνης pass by along that road Mt 8:28 (constr. w. διά as PAmh 154, 2; Num 20:17; Josh 24:17). παρὰ τὴν λίμνην GEb 34, 60. Abs. (X., An. 2, 4, 25) Lk 18:37; 1 Cl 14:5 (Ps 36:36). Of someth. impers. get by unnoticed, escape notice (Theognis 419; Sir 42:20) Hs 8, 2, 5ab.
of time: to be no longer available for someth., pass (Soph., Hdt.+; ins, pap, LXX; JosAs 29:8 cod. A; Tat. 26, 1 πῶς γὰρ δύναται παρελθεῖν ὁ μέλλων, εἰ ἔστιν ὁ ἐνεστώς ἡ ὥρα ἤδη παρῆλθεν the time is already past Mt 14:15. Of a definite period of time (SSol 2:11 ὁ χειμὼν π.; Jos., Ant. 15, 408) διὰ τὸ τὴν νηστείαν ἤδη παρεληλυθέναι because the fast was already over Ac 27:9. ὁ παρεληλυθὼς χρόνος the time that is past 1 Pt 4:3 (cp. Isocr. 4, 167 χρόνος … ἱκανὸς γὰρ ὁ παρεληλυθώς, ἐν ᾧ τί τῶν δεινῶν οὐ γέγονεν; PMagd 25, 3 παρεληλυθότος τοῦ χρόνου). τὰ παρεληλυθότα (beside τὰ ἐνεστῶτα and τὰ μέλλοντα; cp. Herm. Wr. 424, 10ff Sc.; Demosth. 4, 2; Jos., Ant. 10, 210) things past, the past (Demosth. 18, 191; Sir 42:19; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 334, Leg. All. 2, 42) B 1:7; 5:3.—ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη Mt 24:34 belongs here, if γ. is understood temporally.

 

[HARK!]

and that Paul has been contrasting Jews and gentiles,

Paul tells us that once we come to Messiah; we are no longer Gentiles.

Gentiles? Not Anymore!

 

[HIM]

Well, given that the Greek preposition ἐν is kind of a general preposition that can mean several different related things,
Strong's Greek: 1722. ἐν (en) -- in, on, at, by, with

and that Paul has been contrasting Jews and gentiles,

I think when he writes ἐν τῷ νόμῳ, he's referring to Jews and proselytes, those who have some access to the law and have been making at least some attempt to follow it.

But ὑπὸ νόμον in Galatians means Obligated to do the things prescribed in the law.

Thus, Jesus was born obligated to do the law. Some people in Galatia wanted to be obligated to do the law. Those who walk by the Spirit are not obligated to do the law.

Nice. How were the Judeans entrusted with the oracles of God? Or better yet how were they suppose to be entrusted? This is asked with the clause, "in the Law" in mind btw.

And in respect to Galatians how does the phrase "under a schoolmaster" and "under the law" relate considering they are being mention periphrastically.

The Greek word translated "schoolmaster" is also found here in 1Cor 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

 

[Leaf473]

We disagree in general. As you probably agree, Without God's Spirit we will understand and accept nothing that is of Him. But If we would witness to someone in respect to having a good Bible we would tell them that Paraphrases should be avoided like the plague and to grab at interlinear first, and then A direct translation and a literal translation. And above all else pray without ceasing. Especially during devotion.
And No it is not an idiom. Heaven and earth as we know it will be no more. The Greek word for Pass has a broad meaning and the definition of it depends on the context. Are you familiar with BDAG Lexicon? I noticed that you have mention the Greek from time to time. If you don't have it we recommend it you should get it if you have the resources. However Thayer's unabridged lexicon can be had for free and it is almost as good. Anyway Here is their citation:

παρέρχομαι mid. dep.; fut. παρελεύσομαι; 2 aor. παρῆλθον, impv. in H. Gk. παρελθάτω Mt 26:39 (also v.l. -ετω; B-D-F §81, 3; Mlt-H. 209); pf. παρελήλυθα (Hom.+).
to go past a reference point, go by, pass by w. acc. someone or someth. (Aelian, VH 2, 35; Lucian, Merc. Cond. 15) an animal Hv 4, 1, 9; 4, 2, 1; a place Papias (3, 3). Of Jesus and his disciples on the lake: ἤθελεν παρελθεῖν αὐτούς Mk 6:48 (s. HWindisch, NThT 9, 1920, 298–308; GEysinga, ibid. 15, 1926, 221–29 al.; Lohmeyer s.v. παράγω 3; BvanIersel, in The Four Gospels, Neirynck Festschr., ed. FvanSegbroeck et al. ’92, II 1065–76). διὰ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἐκείνης pass by along that road Mt 8:28 (constr. w. διά as PAmh 154, 2; Num 20:17; Josh 24:17). παρὰ τὴν λίμνην GEb 34, 60. Abs. (X., An. 2, 4, 25) Lk 18:37; 1 Cl 14:5 (Ps 36:36). Of someth. impers. get by unnoticed, escape notice (Theognis 419; Sir 42:20) Hs 8, 2, 5ab.
of time: to be no longer available for someth., pass (Soph., Hdt.+; ins, pap, LXX; JosAs 29:8 cod. A; Tat. 26, 1 πῶς γὰρ δύναται παρελθεῖν ὁ μέλλων, εἰ ἔστιν ὁ ἐνεστώς ἡ ὥρα ἤδη παρῆλθεν the time is already past Mt 14:15. Of a definite period of time (SSol 2:11 ὁ χειμὼν π.; Jos., Ant. 15, 408) διὰ τὸ τὴν νηστείαν ἤδη παρεληλυθέναι because the fast was already over Ac 27:9. ὁ παρεληλυθὼς χρόνος the time that is past 1 Pt 4:3 (cp. Isocr. 4, 167 χρόνος … ἱκανὸς γὰρ ὁ παρεληλυθώς, ἐν ᾧ τί τῶν δεινῶν οὐ γέγονεν; PMagd 25, 3 παρεληλυθότος τοῦ χρόνου). τὰ παρεληλυθότα (beside τὰ ἐνεστῶτα and τὰ μέλλοντα; cp. Herm. Wr. 424, 10ff Sc.; Demosth. 4, 2; Jos., Ant. 10, 210) things past, the past (Demosth. 18, 191; Sir 42:19; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 334, Leg. All. 2, 42) B 1:7; 5:3.—ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη Mt 24:34 belongs here, if γ. is understood temporally.

_____________________________

Are you familiar with BDAG Lexicon?

Yes. As I said earlier, a language is more than set of words with definitions.

The reason I think Until Heaven and Earth pass away is an idiom, or something like it, is that it looks to me like some laws have passed away.

But I think we're talking about the same thing on the 10 reasons thread, so I'm going to check over there first before posting more here.

 

[Leaf473]

Paul tells us that once we come to Messiah; we are no longer Gentiles.

Gentiles? Not Anymore!

True! But in the early part of Romans, he's contrasting the two groups imo.

 

[Leaf473]

Nice. How were the Judeans entrusted with the oracles of God? Or better yet how were they suppose to be entrusted? This is asked with the clause, "in the Law" in mind btw.

And in respect to Galatians how does the phrase "under a schoolmaster" and "under the law" relate considering they are being mention periphrastically.

The Greek word translated "schoolmaster" is also found here in 1Cor 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

How were they entrusted? They were the ones to whom the law was given, and to whom the prophets were sent. And God disciplined them as a whole with things like the exile in Babylon.

If you're referring to this from Galatians 4, "ὑπὸ ἐπιτρόπους ἐστὶ καὶ οἰκονόμους", it looks to me like they're used much the same way: if you are under the law, you have to do what it says. If you are under guardians, you have to do what they say.

Did I answer your question?

 

[HIM]

_____________________________
Yes. As I said earlier, a language is more than set of words with definitions.

The reason I think Until Heaven and Earth pass away is an idiom, or something like it, is that it looks to me like some laws have passed away.

But I think we're talking about the same thing on the 10 reasons thread, so I'm going to check over there first before posting more here.

No Laws have passed. Only Ordinances and Judgements. Laws are something that just are. THey don't change and we can't them.

 

[Leaf473]

No Laws have passed. Only Ordinances and Judgements. Laws are something that just are. THey don't change and we can't them.

Well, the context of Matthew 5 includes quotes from The ten commandments as well as the second greatest commandment. Jesus gives the second greatest commandment when asked about what is the greatest commandment in the law, if I recall correctly.

I'm pretty sure you count the ten commandments as laws, so when Jesus says the law and the prophets, I'm pretty sure he's including them.

But in that same context, he also talks about things like the gift that you bring to the altar. I'm pretty sure that he's also including them as part of the law and the prophets, based on that context.