"Teach" the controversy!

selfinflikted

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Let us suppose that I.D., otherwise known as "creationism," actually did make it into science class and was taught. What on earth would the tests look like, and would Every. Single. Answer. be "goddidit."?!?

I just thought about this seriously for a fleeting moment. It's hilarious on the one hand, but in all honesty, how would the class be taught?

:confused:

ETA: The OP is in reference to public school education. I omitted this bit from the original OP, and this omission seems to have caused a bit of confusion. Sorry for the error, you guys.
 
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Hetta

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I think it would be similar to the kind of tests that kids take in Christian school right now. One of my kids had to write an essay about the beginning of the world recently, and so he had to assess the different theories, including the Big Bang Theory. He has to skew it towards creationism but, at this school anyway, they aren't ignoring other theories, they simply direct kids to reject those theories and focus on the biblical theory instead.

So a test might look like:

How old are some estimates of the earth's age
How old does the Bible tell us that the earth is

Etc.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I think it would be similar to the kind of tests that kids take in Christian school right now. One of my kids had to write an essay about the beginning of the world recently, and so he had to assess the different theories, including the Big Bang Theory. He has to skew it towards creationism but, at this school anyway, they aren't ignoring other theories, they simply direct kids to reject those theories and focus on the biblical theory instead.

So a test might look like:

How old are some estimates of the earth's age
How old does the Bible tell us that the earth is

Etc.

Here is a major correction to your post. There are no other theories. The word theory has a very specific meaning in science and none of the crazy ideas of creationists have risen to that level. Creationists have not even written proper hypotheses for their ideas. And that is where we get back to the OP's request:

"What on earth would the tests look like, and would Every. Single. Answer. be "goddidit."?!?"

Ideally the test in a science classroom would mimic the tests done on an idea that proved it. What tests could you do in the classroom to show the Big Bang occurred? A person could describe how the spectra of light from distant galaxies show that they are moving away from us. They could explain the implications of the Cosmic Background Radiation and how it is detected.

What test could you do for creationism? The fact that it has failed all tests that have been given to it is one of the reason it is not accepted by scientists. The idea has failed.
 
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selfinflikted

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I think it would be similar to the kind of tests that kids take in Christian school right now. One of my kids had to write an essay about the beginning of the world recently, and so he had to assess the different theories, including the Big Bang Theory. He has to skew it towards creationism but, at this school anyway, they aren't ignoring other theories, they simply direct kids to reject those theories and focus on the biblical theory instead.

So a test might look like:

How old are some estimates of the earth's age
How old does the Bible tell us that the earth is

Etc.

That's interesting. So they would teach creationism alongside BBT and ToE, I guess. But since I'm talking about the public school realm, and not Christian school (where they already obviously teach I.D.), how would that look? Because if I got my facts straight, they wouldn't be teaching "biblical" creationism, just creationism in general by a nebulous, non-specific creator.

As an aside, I'm kinda actually shocked your kid(s) go to Christian school. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I'm just surprised is all.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Let us suppose that I.D., otherwise known as "creationism," actually did make it into science class and was taught. What on earth would the tests look like, and would Every. Single. Answer. be "goddidit."?!?

I just thought about this seriously for a fleeting moment. It's hilarious on the one hand, but in all honesty, how would the class be taught?

:confused:

If "ID in the science classroom" meant that during one class the teacher mentioned it, I think I would be fine with it.

For example, the teacher could simply say, "Today we are going to learn about the science behind the early life of the universe which is encompassed under the broad heading of The Big Bang. There are some people that believe that this event was triggered by supernatural agents. Others believe it was triggered by some quantum fluctuation. There are a variety of competing theories about what caused the Big Bang but those thoughts often belong in philosophy classrooms. Thus, from now on we will be dealing with the physical processes that have occurred since the Big Bang."


If that was it, then I feel like that is reasonable and could easily belong in a science classroom. The above paragraph could be simplified depending on the age group you are talking to.

Anything more and I oppose it.
 
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selfinflikted

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If "ID in the science classroom" meant that during one class the teacher mentioned it, I think I would be fine with it.

For example, the teacher could simply say, "Today we are going to learn about the science behind the early life of the universe which is encompassed under the broad heading of The Big Bang. There are some people that believe that this event was triggered by supernatural agents. Others believe it was triggered by some quantum fluctuation. There are a variety of competing theories about what caused the Big Bang but those thoughts often belong in philosophy classrooms. Thus, from now on we will be dealing with the physical processes that have occurred since the Big Bang."


If that was it, then I feel like that is reasonable and could easily belong in a science classroom. The above paragraph could be simplified depending on the age group you are talking to.

Anything more and I oppose it.

I kinda agree with this. BUT. As subduction zone has already mentioned, there is only one theory. All the rest can simply be classified as "belief" imo.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Just giving my perspective as someone who has actually seen what is asked in the questions/tests.

And "theory" was the wrong word for the Biblical perspective, because that is the truth, dontcha know. :p

The Bible is far form being "the truth". If something can be shown to be full of flaws we know that the one thing it is not is "the truth".

Second the point was why your beliefs cannot be taught in a science class. You ideas fail scientific tests and therefore are not scientific. Not the idea of a creation, it is fair to point out that we cannot reproduce that and so it cannot be tested. That is a somewhat reasonable claim. But the results of a creation can be tested and those are the tests that creationism fails. It fails so badly that creation "scientists" no longer describe testable ways to see if creationism is true or not.
 
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Hetta

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That's interesting. So they would teach creationism alongside BBT and ToE, I guess. But since I'm talking about the public school realm, and not Christian school (where they already obviously teach I.D.), how would that look? Because if I got my facts straight, they wouldn't be teaching "biblical" creationism, just creationism in general by a nebulous, non-specific creator.

As an aside, I'm kinda actually shocked your kid(s) go to Christian school. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I'm just surprised is all.

Okay gotcha. Sorry.

Well, some of them have been for middle school because our middle schools aren't very good, and the smaller classroom environment has been very positive for them educationally speaking. But we have always balanced out the extremism of the teaching. We have one kid who went to Christian School for middle school who has since excelled in science at public H.S. and who has been accepted into college as a science major so I don't see it as holding them back, so long as they are encouraged to read widely and not accept the school curriculum as absolute fact. They are all good and open thinkers, so I think they have gotten through it okay.
 
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keith99

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I'm perfectly happy with Biblical creationism being taught in science classes and treated as a hypothesis. As long as someone like me was the teacher.

Of course I'd want police protection if I taught in the South.

The start is asking the question:

How can we test this hypothesis.

Now when it comes to YEC creationism that comes down to either it is falsified as we can test and see the Earth is far older or God made it all look much older.

For the crowd that only say God did it and nothing more I'd ask the question 'And how can we test that?' Of course we can't. BUT for them the next bit isn't really bad at all. It is deciding WHY or WHO/What created everything is not the purview of science, the mechanics of just what happened is. Science says nothing on the subject of God being behind it all, science cannot comment on that.

Then comes the fun, kicking them when they are down.

The question what deductions can we make about a God that creates the Earth to look Billions of years old a few thousand years ago and then expects his followers to deny the evidence he has put there.

Pretty nasty God as I see it. IF God did that. While I don't believe I also think the problem is misinterpretation and misuse of Scripture, not what God (if there is a God) did.
 
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selfinflikted

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Okay gotcha. Sorry.

Well, some of them have been for middle school because our middle schools aren't very good, and the smaller classroom environment has been very positive for them educationally speaking. But we have always balanced out the extremism of the teaching. We have one kid who went to Christian School for middle school who has since excelled in science at public H.S. and who has been accepted into college as a science major so I don't see it as holding them back, so long as they are encouraged to read widely and not accept the school curriculum as absolute fact. They are all good and open thinkers, so I think they have gotten through it okay.

:thumbsup:

I'm sure reasons for sending kids to Christian school varies from parent to parent, so yours are your own. Again, I wasn't being insulting, I was just slightly surprised.

Also, I'm glad you have at least one budding scientist in your .. brood, for lack of a better term ( ;) )!
 
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Subduction Zone

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Okay gotcha. Sorry.

Well, some of them have been for middle school because our middle schools aren't very good, and the smaller classroom environment has been very positive for them educationally speaking. But we have always balanced out the extremism of the teaching. We have one kid who went to Christian School for middle school who has since excelled in science at public H.S. and who has been accepted into college as a science major so I don't see it as holding them back, so long as they are encouraged to read widely and not accept the school curriculum as absolute fact. They are all good and open thinkers, so I think they have gotten through it okay.


It is possible to get a good education in a Christian school. And they can legally teach creation there since it is legal to teach religion there. I think the OP meant to ask how would creation be taught in a public school where it is illegal to embrace a religion.
 
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Hetta

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The Bible is far form being "the truth". If something can be shown to be full of flaws we know that the one thing it is not is "the truth".

Second the point was why your beliefs cannot be taught in a science class. You ideas fail scientific tests and therefore are not scientific. Not the idea of a creation, it is fair to point out that we cannot reproduce that and so it cannot be tested. That is a somewhat reasonable claim. But the results of a creation can be tested and those are the tests that creationism fails. It fails so badly that creation "scientists" no longer describe testable ways to see if creationism is true or not.

I don't believe in the literalism of creationism, I consider the creation account to be a parable. So it's not actually "my" belief.
 
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Hetta

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It is possible to get a good education in a Christian school. And they can legally teach creation there since it is legal to teach religion there. I think the OP meant to ask how would creation be taught in a public school where it is illegal to embrace a religion.

I KNOW!!

That's why I said "gotcha. Sorry."

Backing out now ....
 
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selfinflikted

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It is possible to get a good education in a Christian school. And they can legally teach creation there since it is legal to teach religion there. I think the OP meant to ask how would creation be taught in a public school where it is illegal to embrace a religion.

That is indeed what I meant. I will edit the OP for clarification.

I KNOW!!

That's why I said "gotcha. Sorry."

Backing out now ....

No. You may stay. :)
 
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Subduction Zone

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I don't believe in the literalism of creationism, I consider the creation account to be a parable. So it's not actually "my" belief.

I have no problem with that. It is the fundamentalists that drive me nuts. And I am sorry to imply that you were a creationist.

By the way many Christian public universities teach evolution. They have no problem with the theory. They too look at Genesis as parable or allegory. In fact worldwide more Christians accept evolution than deny it. The U.S. is one of the few nations where creationists are a large enough fraction of the population to have an impact.
 
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Subduction Zone

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I KNOW!!

That's why I said "gotcha. Sorry."

Backing out now ....

No, no. You have been quite reasonable. I sometimes jump on creationists quite harshly because I have dealt with their unreasonable behavior and beliefs far too often.

So please do not back out of this conversation due to my initial aggressive action.
 
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keith99

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Just thought of something even more fun!

The Flood of Noah. Less than 6000 years ago.

But somehow what was on that boat, too large to float and far to small for 1% of what we see somehow had the rootstock for everything we see today.

How can this be? Even if God magically fed and calmed everything and kept the boat floating (strange sounding since Scripture does seem to make miracles happen front and center) still far too small.

UNLESS evolution can happen so fast that it hardly deserves the name.

It would seem those who believe uberliteralism in Scripture should support very rapid evolution.

Again I wearing my best evil atheist hat and twirtling my waxed mustache say the problem here is not with Scripture, but rather with others twisting it more than I do my Snidely Whiplash mustache.
 
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selfinflikted

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It would seem those who believe uberliteralism in Scripture should support very rapid evolution.

Some do, and I've even seen some explanations by creationists in these forums, though admittedly, I can't remember them. I was barely paying attention.
 
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AV1611VET

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Let us suppose that I.D., otherwise known as "creationism," actually did make it into science class and was taught.
Then someone's got a problem.

First of all, Intelligent Design is not creationism; it is Satan's cheap imitation of creationism.

Second of all, for those who think it is, then creationism does not belong in science class; it belongs in history class.
What on earth would the tests look like,
I'll make one up and we'll see where it goes.

Creationist Test:

  1. Explain the difference between creatio ex nihilo and creatio ex materia; and give two examples of each.
  2. Explain the difference between "God" and "LORD God".
  3. Eden in the Bible is known as __________ in the lab.
  4. The triune Godhead is a violation of what scientific law?
  5. Put the following in order that they appeared in the universe: whales, stars, trees, sun, land, sea, outer space.
  6. What day was Adam created on?
  7. Was the universe created a closed system and, if not, what kind of energy did it run off of? if it was created open, what closed it?
  8. Describe terra aqua and what kind of water it consisted of and why.
  9. Photosynthesis required light from the sun prior to the Fall. true or false?
  10. Explain how a 24-hour day could transpire before the sun was created.
 
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