Tapping one's foot means what?

[beechy]

My Lord in Heaven!! Calm down!!!

I'm exceedingly calm. Just trying to help you understand our conversation. You're the one with five exclamation points!!!!!!

 

[levi501]

My Lord in Heaven!! Calm down!!!

We'll take this to mean, I'm sorry Beechy you were right. Thanks for deftly handing me what I sit on.

 

[b&wpac4]

The term cannot be set in stone in that regard...and for the better! A freethinking Christian reads for themselves, has the gall to speak up against the church over unsound doctrine, forms their own opnions/beliefs instead of just sitting in a pew and listening to whatever sermon is being taught. Most importantly, they do their own research and rely moreso on their personal relationship with God rather than just doing whatever the church tells them to.

And that is my opinion.

So the difference between a freethinking Christian and someone like myself is simply a faith in Jesus as savior and messiah? I can deal with that.

 

[Supernaut]

So the difference between a freethinking Christian and someone like myself is simply a faith in Jesus as savior and messiah? I can deal with that.

Absolutely.

 

[Supernaut]

I'm exceedingly calm. Just trying to help you understand our conversation. You're the one with five exclamation points!!!!!!

How dare you!?! Don't judge me for my excessive use of exclamations!!!!!!

 

[beechy]

Don't judge me cuz i can't count!!

Mmkay.

 

[Supernaut]

We'll take this to mean, I'm sorry Beechy you were right. Thanks for deftly handing me what I sit on.

Easy! You know not upon what I sit!! So beechy may have been right!! Ya wanna cupcake!?!


I love sarcastic humor....

 

[beechy]

How dare you!?! Don't judge me for my excessive use of exclamations!!!!!!

No judgment here (*said in my calmest, most soothing voice*)

 

[Supernaut]

Mmkay.

You were supposed to read the updated version! Nevermind..you did

 

[PreachersWife2004]

and thus the problem. What is a "true freethinking Christian"? Some on this board would say your not one based on certain beliefs, while others will say they are when you will disagree with them. The term is not set in stone.

It's not even about "Freethinking" or "true" Christianity. I can't tell who those pastors were, just that they were protestant pastors. Since when does protestant = conservative or right wing?

Trust me, my Synod carries one of the most stringent views of the role of man and woman, and the idea of wives submitting to their husbands, and not ONE of our pastors would or should EVER tell their wives to stay with their abusive husbands because they're supposed to submit.

nor would true Scotsmen.

but apparently 26% of them DO! I bet you were pritty shocked when provided with an actual study and evidenced.

26% is a majority? 26% is even enough to say that all or most? And 26% is a good enough number to even narrow it down to the religious right?

I'm completely flabbergasted. That changes EVERYTHING I ever knew about statistics.

PreachersWife2004 said pastors in their right minds don't counsel battered wives to submit to their husbands, and that claiming they do is a red herring. You Amen-ed that. I don't think it's a red herring if 26% of 5,000+ pastors polled would provide such advice. If you think those 26% are not in their right minds, then that's an even bigger problem, eh?

So my return Amen to you was tounge-in-cheek.

No, the argument was made that "conservative" pastors and the religious right tell the wives this. THAT is a false premise, because any pastor that does this isn't presenting the mainstream belief behind wives submitting, nor are they preaching true Christian doctrine. It's a falsehood to try to say that it's only the religious right to do it, and it's even more of a falsehood to say that 26% presents a majority AND the religious right!!

 

[Supernaut]

No judgment here (*said in my calmest, most soothing voice*)

I feel more soothed already!

 

[Texas Lynn]

I can't tell who those pastors were, just that they were protestant pastors. Since when does protestant = conservative or right wing?

That would leave out the Catholic priests and Eastern Orthodox ones who do it then. And since liberals generally do not accpet the "wives submit to your husbands" admotion as justification for sexism it would probably not include very many of them.

Trust me, my Synod carries one of the most stringent views of the role of man and woman, and the idea of wives submitting to their husbands, and not ONE of our pastors would or should EVER tell their wives to stay with their abusive husbands because they're supposed to submit.

No offense but that's just an admission of being naive. Sure they would, and so would some United Methodist pastors. I can't say I've seen it done by a pastor of WELS but I have by Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, Pentecostals, and Non-Denominational pastors. I can guarantee you there are some in every denomination who have and would.

No, the argument was made that "conservative" pastors and the religious right tell the wives this. THAT is a red herring, because any pastor that does this isn't presenting the mainstream belief behind wives submitting, nor are they preaching true Christian doctrine. It's a red herring to try to say that it's only the religious right to do it, and it's even more of a red herring to say that 26% presents a majority AND the religious right!!

I tell you what, if you can come up with an anecdote of a liberal pastor doing it I'll accept it. But it seems to me when fully aware of the situation liberals are more likely to avoid such because they don't accept the shibboleths conservatives do.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Just to up the ante....pastors in all denominations sexually abuse children in the church. They keep it secret, but it occurs. Now compare that to advising an abused wife to submit to her husband. That's acceptable language in some churches. It's quite a stretch to say "no" pastors in a particular denomination do it. FWIW I've seen 'em do it to abused husbands too.

 

[beechy]

It's not even about "Freethinking" or "true" Christianity. I can't tell who those pastors were, just that they were protestant pastors. Since when does protestant = conservative or right wing?

Trust me, my Synod carries one of the most stringent views of the role of man and woman, and the idea of wives submitting to their husbands, and not ONE of our pastors would or should EVER tell their wives to stay with their abusive husbands because they're supposed to submit.

26% is a majority? 26% is even enough to say that all or most? And 26% is a good enough number to even narrow it down to the religious right?

I'm completely flabbergasted. That changes EVERYTHING I ever knew about statistics.

No, the argument was made that "conservative" pastors and the religious right tell the wives this. THAT is a red herring, because any pastor that does this isn't presenting the mainstream belief behind wives submitting, nor are they preaching true Christian doctrine. It's a red herring to try to say that it's only the religious right to do it, and it's even more of a red herring to say that 26% presents a majority AND the religious right!!

1) I'll start by admitting I don't really understand the relevance of this battered wife thing you and Texas Lynn have been going back and forth about. My interjection was only meant to address what looked to me like an argument (or at least a strong implication) that clergy don't counsel women to stay with their abusive husbands. If you concede that sometimes they do provide such counsel, then we really don't need to go any further.

2) Texas Lynn didn't say that all conservative clergy counsel wives this way. Rather, she asked you to show where any conservative group has ever condemned a member of the clergy of their denomination who has counseled a battered wife to submit to their abusive husband. IOW, she limited her inquiry to members of groups with conservative clergy who have given such counsel ... however big or small that number may be (although she later said she believed it happened frequently, she never said all the time, majority of the time, etc.)

3) You countered that you could not provide such examples, because any pastor in his right mind doesn't tell a wife who is being abused to submit. So I'm not sure what you're arguing ... Is it your belief that there are no conservative clergy who give such advice? Or maybe you're arguing that only crazy conservative clergy give that advice? Or maybe that mainstream conservative clergy do NOT give such advice? If it's the latter, then I don't get what all your "red herring" talk was about ... because you're the only person who said anything about such advice being given only by the conservative right, or about such advice being mainstream, or about 26% being a majority ... It's like you were throwing your own red herrings out there ...

4) I'm still confused about how all of this ties into the foot tapping issue. Again, all I'm saying is that there are definitely clergy out there who believe wives should submit to their abusive husbands. Maybe none of them are in their right mind, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

 

[MoonLancer]

No, the argument was made that "conservative" pastors and the religious right tell the wives this. THAT is a red herring, because any pastor that does this isn't presenting the mainstream belief behind wives submitting, nor are they preaching true Christian doctrine. It's a red herring to try to say that it's only the religious right to do it, and it's even more of a red herring to say that 26% presents a majority AND the religious right!!

I did not use the word majority. If you where talking about me, please do not place those words in my mouth. That would be fallacious.

also i think the augment went something like this

Sorry, no. It's a frequent occurrance.

I highly doubt this.

do you think 26% is frequent? that's 1/4 of the time.

 

[quatona]

No, the argument was made that "conservative" pastors and the religious right tell the wives this. THAT is a red herring, because any pastor that does this isn't presenting the mainstream belief behind wives submitting, nor are they preaching true Christian doctrine. It's a red herring to try to say that it's only the religious right to do it, and it's even more of a red herring to say that 26% presents a majority AND the religious right!!

You may want to educate yourself what a Red Herring is.
( Fallacy: Red Herring )

You seem to be confusing different sorts of logical fallacies.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

No, it's exactly what I meant to use.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue.

 

[beechy]

No, it's exactly what I meant to use.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue.

Mm hmm, but you said it was a red herring because no pastor in their right mind would ever counsel a woman that way. Again, if you just meant that you believe no right minded pastor in your synod would do so, then ok -- we can't really talk about that in this forum because the rest of us have no personal knowledge of the clergy in your synod, and even if we did we don't know which ones are in their right minds. But, then again, Texas Lynn made no claims about your synod, so I don't know what that has to do with anything.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Noooo...I said it was a red herring because conservative pastors counseling abused wives has nothing to do with tapping feet in a bathroom. It has everything to do with people getting to take another pot shot at conservatives.

Mm hmm, but you said it was a red herring because no pastor in their right mind would ever counsel a woman that way. Again, if you just meant that you believe no right minded pastor in your synod would do so, then ok -- we can't really talk about that in this forum because the rest of us have no personal knowledge of the clergy in your synod, and even if we did we don't know which ones are in their right minds. But, then again, Texas Lynn made no claims about your synod, so I don't know what that has to do with anything.

 

[quatona]

No, it's exactly what I meant to use.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue.

Well, that´s not what you criticized the post for in your elaboration of your criticism
Ok, whatever.
So, what is the the "original issue" and what is the "irrelevant topic", in your perception and criticism?