Talmud teaches the possibility of two appearances of Messiah

[Higher Truth]

Charles stated:

In so far as inspired text goes, I think you are not too familiar with how books were considered for the canon of scripture (in the Tanakh). My next statement many even Messianics will no doubt grisstle at but I will say it: I do not believe Paul intended or had any idea that his letters to the congregations would ever be considered canon material. Never!

HT:

Let's examine the above statement in light of this:

Acts 9
10 And there was a certain disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, Ananias! And he said, Behold, Lord, I am here.
11 And the Lord said to him, Rising up pass along on the street being called Straight and seek a Tarsian, Saul by name, in the house of Judas. For, behold, he is praying.
12 And he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting a hand on him, so that he may see again.
13 And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many bad things he did to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all the ones calling on Your name.
15 And the Lord said to him, Go, for this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.
16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of My name.
17 And Ananias went away and entered into the house. And putting hands on him he said, Brother Saul, the Lord has sent me, Jesus, the One who appeared to you in the highway on which you came, that you may see and be filled of the Holy Spirit.
18 And instantly it was as if scales fell away from his eyes. And rising up at the thing happening, he was baptized.


And this:


Acts 22
12 And a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the Law, having been testified to by all the Jews living there,
13 coming to me and standing by, he said to me, Brother Saul, look up. And in the same hour I looked up on him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers appointed you to know His will, and to see the Just One, and to hear a voice out of His mouth;
15 for you shall be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.

HT:

So we are told that Yeshua chose Paul to be a witness for Him to all men. In order to be a witness to future [all] men, Paul's writings would be a very important part. And we are also told that he was appointed by God to know His will and hear the voice of Yeshua.


Charles:

It was not until seveal hundred years later that Pauls writings were firmly decided upon as something to consider as inspiried, or directed by God.



HT:

I cannot agree with the above statement, and here is why:


2 Timothy 3 [written by Paul 60 ce.]
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

2 Peter 3 [written by Peter 64 ce.]
15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him;
16 as also in * all * his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Notice that Peter says in ALL of his [Paul's] epistles [letters] meaning plural. Then Peter goes on to state "as also they do the * rest * of the Scriptures". Also notice that Peter's account was written after Paul's directive in 2 Timothy.


Let's examine what Yeshua said about this:


John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

In the scripture above, Jesus establishes that the writings of His disciples are inspired and authoritative. If this were not true, then how could future generations * believe on Jesus * unless it was through the apostles written word? Keep in mind that Jesus is the beginning and the end.He is the Word made manifest.

Here is another example which shows that the New Testament writings were considered scripture by the apostles. This occurs when Paul quotes two separate verses, as being [one] scripture: one part from the Old Testament [Deuteronomy], one from the New Testament [ Gospel of Luke -authored by Luke ce. 56-58]

This is Paul quoting Deuteronomy 25:4 [first part] and Luke 10:7 [second part]

1 Timothy 5 [authored by Paul ce 61-64]
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward [misthos 3408]

Here are the two complete scriptures that make up Paul's singular quote:

Deuteronomy 25
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out [the corn].

Luke 10
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: * for the labourer is worthy of his hire[misthos 3408]*. Go not from house to house.

 

[Atkin]

Shalom Higher Truth,

It was in the Paris Disputation of 1241, where was officially and legally determined that none of the references in the Talmud to Jesus were about the Christian Jesus. It was this Jewish council that made the authoritative stance that none of the 'jesus', or yeshu, or yeshua passages in the Talmud were in reference to the christian messiah.

Shalom!
Yafet.

It depends on whether the animosity felt by the religious authorities who felt threatened by Yeshua and confronted him, ever leaked into future Rabbinic Judaism. If so, then it would be tough for them to convince anyone that they do not have those same feelings.

Of course, being "official" about it in Paris may be convincing.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

HT:

So we are told that Yeshua chose Paul to be a witness for Him to all men. In order to be a witness to future [all] men, Paul's writings would be a very important part. And we are also told that he was appointed by God to know His will and hear the voice of Yeshua.

HT.,

I am not in any way disputing Pauls election or validity as an apostle or his authority to witness. Many men were witnesses who did not leave a written record. We can name a few just from the scriptures, such as the disciples, John the immerser and even Nikodemis, perhaps others. Certainly Paul's words have been a key to us, because he, being the "Pharisee of Pharises", understood the scriptures and the sacrifices and saw the Messiah clearly depicted in all of these things.

Charles:

It was not until seveal hundred years later that Pauls writings were firmly decided upon as something to consider as inspiried, or directed by God.

HT:

I cannot agree with the above statement, and here is why:


2 Timothy 3 [written by Paul 60 ce.]
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

HT,

Absolutely, however by "Scripture" Paul is refering to the Tanakh only. There was not New testament at that time! All the scripture he quotes is LXX or Massorec Text of Tankh. Pauls writings, were circulated in the early church. But so also was the Odes of Solomon, Bell and the dragon, I Enoch, The writings of the Maccabees. But these were not Canon scripture at the time.

2 Peter 3 [written by Peter 64 ce.]
15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him;
16 as also in * all * his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Notice that Peter says in ALL of his [Paul's] epistles [letters] meaning plural. Then Peter goes on to state "as also they do the * rest * of the Scriptures". Also notice that Peter's account was written after Paul's directive in 2 Timothy.

I agree that Pter does consider Pauls writings to be Holy Writ. Does this mean they were in fact Canonized at that time? No. In fact the book of Acts which is largely taken up with the story of Paul does not quote Pauls writings or make reference to/from them. What Paul does sem to beleive about his own wrtings is his authority to present Halachah for proper application of Tanakh. This is what Paul does best. It is a shame that the Church mostly se's Paul as being anyinomial when in fact he is always explaining how Yeshua is the focus of the typology of the Tanakh, the thing at which it points.

None the less there is no other incidence of this possible New testment reference in the New testament writings, that is to say we do not see the New testament writers making quotes from other contempories. So how do we explain the seeming Lukian quote? There were writings such as the Didash or collections of the sayings of Yeshua which were being circulated at the time, and these may have served as source material for Luke or Mark, and later John.


Let's examine what Yeshua said about this:


John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

In the scripture above, Jesus establishes that the writings of His disciples are inspired and authoritative. If this were not true, then how could future generations * believe on Jesus * unless it was through the apostles written word? Keep in mind that Jesus is the beginning and the end.He is the Word made manifest.

Here is another example which shows that the New Testament writings were considered scripture by the apostles. This occurs when Paul quotes two separate verses, as being [one] scripture: one part from the Old Testament [Deuteronomy], one from the New Testament [ Gospel of Luke -authored by Luke ce. 56-58]

This is Paul quoting Deuteronomy 25:4 [first part] and Luke 10:7 [second part]

1 Timothy 5 [authored by Paul ce 61-64]
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward [misthos 3408]

Here are the two complete scriptures that make up Paul's singular quote:

Deuteronomy 25
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out [the corn].

Luke 10
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: * for the labourer is worthy of his hire[misthos 3408]*. Go not from house to house.

Does the Lord expect the writings of Paul to be Canon? Perhaps. why not. No surprises for the Lord. But that does not mean that Paul felt this way about his own writing during his days.

Charles in Florida

 

[Higher Truth]

HT:

I cannot agree with the above statement, and here is why:

2 Timothy 3 [written by Paul 60 ce.]
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.


Charles:

Absolutely, however by "Scripture" Paul is refering to the Tanakh only.


HT:

Let's take a look at all of the books that were completed before Paul made this statement:

Matthew [41 ce]
1 Thess [50 ce]
2 Thess [51 ce]
Galatians [50 -52 ce]
1 Corinth [55 ce]
2 Corinth [55 ce]
Romans [56 ce]
Luke [56-58 ce]

Then we have these books completed around the time 2nd Timothy was written:

Ephesians
Collosians
Philemon
Phillippians
Hebrews
Acts

The New Testament has been around for almost two thousand years. I have no interest in trying to second guess the Almighty. Yeshua is the Word made manifest, and He spoke many of the words recorded in the NT texts, therefore I personally believe that it was meant to be Scripture from the beginning of time , but more importantly, so did Peter of whom the Messiah said:


Matthew 16
17 And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

ht,

I am reasonably certain that you will not be able to find one single scholar who will agree with your position that Pauls writing were canonized or even in book form while he was alive, or that he considered anything other than the Tanakh as scripture. You have taken a position that can not be validated. Paul was a humble servant of God with a steadfast opionion that his commission as apostle was as valid as any of the other apostles and the others like Peter and James agreed concerning this. But there is simply no hint that he considered his letters to the churches to be "scripture". Nor do the other apostle concider his writings to be scripture. They are (were) Halachah only and as such could be considered inspired, so long as they supported scripture.

But allow me to set before you something that you must deal with if you really believe what you have stated; If Pauls writing were considered scripture and worthy of canonization in his own lifetime, then the test for canon is that what is writen must agree with and not refute anything that has already been given by the Lord in Torah. This means that you must begin to look for agreement between Paul and Torah, because Paul upholds Torah completely and if his writings change anything from what was given in Torah it is heretical and could not be canon. This is the test that was given by those who ultimately did canonize the new testament. These men were not as far from the Torah as the Apostate church is today.

Charles in Florida

 

[ShirChadash]

But allow me to set before you something that you must deal with if you really believe what you have stated; If Pauls writing were considered scripture and worthy of canonization in his own lifetime, then the test for canon is that what is writen must agree with and not refute anything that has already been given by the Lord in Torah. This means that you must begin to look for agreement between Paul and Torah, because Paul upholds Torah completely and if his writings change anything from what was given in Torah it is heretical and could not be canon. This is the test that was given by those who ultimately did canonize the new testament. These men were not as far from the Torah as the Apostate church is today.