Talking To The Saints In Heaven

[babychrist]

I posted this elsewhere and thought it might be beneficial to post it here. Please note that I'm not suggesting that we incorporate into the liturgy, dogma, or Church practices, invoking the saints. I think that would be a dangerous path to go down, not to mention innovation (I fear innovation like the plague). Nor am I suggesting that Confessional Lutheranism start teaching that the saints can hear and/or have knowledge of what's going on down here. I know alot of people find comfort in the belief that they do not, and I wouldn't want to take that away from them. Besides such a move would veer from the Confessions which says, "nothing can be certain". All I want to know is, is the official position of Confessional Lutheranism, "We don't know, so don't do it". "We don't know, so everyone is allowed to form their own opinion on this matter so long as they conform their beliefs to that of Scripture and the Confession and do not by such beliefs contradict the Gospel". Or we know for a fact that they can't hear us or have any sort of knowledge of what's going on down here, so talking to them is futile."

With that, here is what I wrote:

Hi Everyone!

I was baptized and confirmed in the LCMS, but even before Confirmation I began to have serious reservations, I probably never should have been confirmed, but as a child I went through the motions and wouldn't have dreampt of upsetting "my special day". Now almost 15 yrs later, I am wanting to come back to the Lutheran Church, but find a few things unsettling (you know that feeling of, 'something's not quite right'?).

The first of these is "talking" to the saints in heaven and their prayers for us.

I've been reading Martin C. 'Examination Of The Council Of Trent' and I agree with what I've read so far, 'On The Invocation Of The Saints'. As irony or Providence would have it, when I first became interested in this issue, it was necessary that I learn a little about ancient greco-roman religious practices and beliefs esp. at the time of the early Church. Two books I would recommend are, "Afterlife In Roman Paganism" by F Cumont and "The Cult Of The Saints: It's Rise And Function In Latin Christianity" by Peter Brown. Peter Brown wrote another book I quite enjoyed entitled, "The Body And Society: Men, Women And Sexual Renunciation In Early Christianity". It dispelled (for me) alot of the myths surrounding a vocation to celibacy and the early Church's view of sexuality. So having the opinion I did of his prior book, I thought that this next one would demonstrate the Christian (and perhaps even Scriptural) underpinnings of said invocation, Contrary to Mr. Brown's own opinion, I finished the book with the disappointed conclusion that the practice of invoking the saints is a carry-over from the greco-roman society in which the early Church found herself.

It was a disappointing conclusion, because I had very much hoped for the opposite and I'll explain in a minute why. Now like I said, I very much agree with M. Chemnitz's accusations (having read the aforementioned books nearly a year prior). And in considering Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, enough to incorporate their devotional practices into my day, especially where the former was concerned, I experienced first hand, what I would later find criticized in the "Examination...". And although Eastern Orthodoxy suffers from this to a much lesser degree than R. Catholicism, it is present there also. So I decline to use the term 'Papalist' in this post.

Now why did I hope for the opposite?

Herein lies my struggle.

I'm not going to argue from Scripture that the saints are aware of what is going on down here, because I know that others will argue that they don't from the same Scriptures. And I am too vulnerable for that right now. So let me just get to the heart of the issue for me,

My Dad died around a year and a half ago. I was raised in a loving, protective, patriarchal household. So it's very unnatural for me to not consider myself under my Dad's authority. In some way It defines who I am. If Dad were completely out of the picture, I think I'd freak. I wouldn't know who I was as a female without being under His guardianship. Even if I were to get married and come under the leadership of my husband, it wouldn't replace how I relate to Dad. I currently find myself to some degree under the headship of my uncle (which has been an immense blessing for me).

Most of the time, it's enough just knowing that those in heaven are present with me. When I think of heaven, I think of being in the presence and glory of God as opposed to a particular stationary place like China. So it's very weird when I try to separate God from heaven and those who are there. When I pray to God, whether or not I speak to anyone else, I am comforted by their presence. But occasionally I do speak with them, I've asked Luther and Saint Paul to help me with particular doctrines. I've told my Dad that I love him and ask him to watch over our family.

I don't consider them intermediaries or mediators. Like I said, I've experienced that first hand and am adamantly against it. I talk to them, because I believe they're still alive. It's that simple for me. I talk to them as if they were right here with me. I don't think they're superheros or demi-gods. I believe as the confession goes, "I confess to Almighty God, in the presence of.....". I don't ask them to forgive me of my sins, unless I feel that I've sinned against them personally. For example, about a month ago, I had watched this really weird movie, in which Gabriel was on the outs with God. I felt so bad afterwards (I knew before I watched it, that I shouldn't have and I watched it through despite my conscience telling me, 'Turn it off Cheryl') I felt that I had sinned so grievously against Gabriel by passively engaging in this heresy, that I begged his forgiveness. Believing that the saints are present with me (since God is present) helps keep me grounded. It makes me aware, that I am "in this world, but not a part of it" and that I am a part of a greater unseen Kingdom, that I am a part of the Kingdom of Heaven. And this Kingdom is a greater reality for me, then the kingdoms of this world (which in comparison, are dream-like, or memory-like to me. I find myself intuitively aware that this world is indeed passing away as if I could see it physically happening) . It also keeps the devil at bay, tempting me to loose joy in the face of death. That death doesn't have the last word, is not just something I know will ultimately happen in the future Resurrection, but it is something I already experience to a certain degree, because even though death tried to take my Dad away from me, it couldn't do it, because my Dad lives in Christ and I live in Christ, though I too in a certain sense am dead to the world, and Christ will always be with me.

My question is, can one be an orthodox, confessional Lutheran and believe the saints are with us, and that we can talk to them, so long as the Gospel (and all that is assumed therein, eg. Christ as our one Mediator) is not undermined as demonstrated by the beliefs and practices in the RCC and other church bodies?

Please be gentle. This is a very delicate issue for me. My heart is very much exposed. It is to my heart, you will be speaking.

Thanks.

 

[DaRev]

It's not a matter of whether or not the saints in heaven can hear us. It's a matter of who do we ask for help in all matters. The Scripture is clear that it is God who is able and willing to hear us and help us. It also tells us that there is one mediator between God and Man, that being Christ Jesus. Asking St. Paul or Luther or anyone else for that matter for help with anything takes away from our faith that God is the sole source of all we have and need.

As for the Confessional Lutheran teaching on the matter, this is from Article XXI of the Augustana: "But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon."

Now this should not take away your love of your father or his influence that he has had in your life. You can rest assured that your dad is at rest with Christ and that he indeed prays to Him for you. You really need not ask him to, but rather direct your prayers and devotions to God through Christ. Your dad is still taking care of you, just in a different way now. He has personal audience with Jesus Himself.

 

[babychrist]

It's not a matter of whether or not the saints in heaven can hear us.

Okay.

It's a matter of who do we ask for help in all matters.

Why can't we ask God and others? I mean asking my mom for help doesn't negate the fact that I ask God for help too. Should we never ask help of others besides God, even in this life?

The Scripture is clear that it is God who is able

I thought the ability to hear wasn't the issue

and willing to hear us and help us.

The saints and angels in heaven have to be willing, otherwise God would be making them pray for us against their will. And when he sends his angels to minister to us (ie to help us), it's not against their will.

It also tells us that there is one mediator between God and Man, that being Christ Jesus.

I know. I said as much in my original post. We should never think we have to go through anyone else to get to Christ.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Why can't we ask God and others? I mean asking my mom for help doesn't negate the fact that I ask God for help too. Should we never ask help of others besides God, even in this life?

Hi there and welcome to the forum!

We are able to ask for help from others here in this lifetime because they are here and able to help us. The blessed departed are, as Rev says, "at rest" in the Lord. They can no longer actively "help" us the way that living, breathing people can. It's not their "job" anymore. They've earned their "retirement"

The way that they "help" us is by praying for us. That's part and parcel of the whole Heavenly place. We get to go in front of GOD HIMSELF (!!!!) and put our petitions to Him FACE TO FACE!God tells us in Scripture that we are not to inquire of the dead. It is expressly forbidden. It goes against the 1st Commandment "you shall have NO other gods before Me." What does this mean? That we should fear, love and trust in God for (or above) ALL THINGS.HE is the one that takes care of us and gives us our daily bread. Not our parents and ancestors who have passed into Glory ahead of us.

However, He also gives us our living friends and relatives to help us here on earth. He works through them to help us. (not that He has to do so)

The saints and angels in heaven have to be willing, otherwise God would be making them pray for us against their will. And when he sends his angels to minister to us (ie to help us), it's not against their will.

Of course. But as I said above, that's pretty much part and parcel of the whole being in Heaven thing! We will WANT to pray for all those who will come after us, just as we do while living here on earth. What would change when we got to Heaven to make us unwilling to bring our petitions before the Lord if we can already do so here on earth? I think it would be even MORE excellent to get to talk with Him face to face!

Kae

 

[babychrist]

Hi there and welcome to the forum!

Thanks

We are able to ask for help from others here in this lifetime because they are here and able to help us. The blessed departed are, as Rev says, "at rest" in the Lord. They can no longer actively "help" us the way that living, breathing people can. It's not their "job" anymore. They've earned their "retirement"

Would you mind elaborating on this some more? Thanks.

The way that they "help" us is by praying for us. That's part and parcel of the whole Heavenly place. We get to go in front of GOD HIMSELF (!!!!) and put our petitions to Him FACE TO FACE!

Do the saints automatically develop some sort of amnesia when it comes to their growth in the knowledge of God while they were still physical walking this earth? For example, if I ask Luther to help me understand a particular thing he wrote, it's because I believe he knows what he wrote and if he knows of my request, he should be able to help me understand what he wrote, to pass onto me, his own knowledge. Now how he does that, is of less concern, whether it's through his prayers to God or more direct contact via the Holy Spirit ect. Now it's true, I can say, "God help me understand what Luther wrote." And he would and I do ask. This is not a God versus Luther thing for me. Just like I can pray to Christ without neglecting the Father and Holy Spirit, to talk to Luther no more negates my singular devotion to God. I would disagree with anyone who would say we have to pray to the saints, but by the same token, to say we can't talk to the saints like Luther, but must ask of God and no one else, seems to severe Luther from continuing to have any sort of effect on us. And we know the saints have an effect, if they indeed pray for us, for prayer is not without effect. I don't know, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, this whole thing of "You have to talk to God and no one else", seems weird and a bit disturbing (for one, it seems to turn Gospel into Law).

God tells us in Scripture that we are not to inquire of the dead.

Which verse are you referring to?

It is expressly forbidden. It goes against the 1st Commandment "you shall have NO other gods before Me." What does this mean? That we should fear, love and trust in God for (or above) ALL THINGS.HE is the one that takes care of us and gives us our daily bread. Not our parents and ancestors who have passed into Glory ahead of us.

But that is true in this life as well (the commandment was given via Moses to the congregation gathered at Sinai). So I'm confused why it means we can't talk to those in heaven,

However, He also gives us our living friends and relatives to help us here on earth. He works through them to help us. (not that He has to do so)

Why can't He work through the saints to help us, he works through the angels, why not my dad?

Thanks.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Great question babyChrist and welcome!!! Personally I wouldn't advise you to pray to those who are deceased because we do not know where they are. Praying to a deceased person who is in hell seems to be something verging on divination. We don't know who is judged to heaven or hell so it's best to worry about the living. And if someone is in heaven they definitley do not need our prayers or our asking them for intercession. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DaRev]

So I'm confused why it means we can't talk to those in heaven,

The question is 'how do we talk to those in heaven?'

We can talk to each other here in this life very easily. We can speak, call on the phone, write a letter, send an email, etc. These all utilize ways in which God has given us to communicate with each other. But how would we communicate with someone who has passed on? The only way I can think of is through prayer, and the Bible strictly forbids prayer to anyone other than God Himself. Praying to anyone other than God is idolatry, a violation of the 1st Commandment.

 

[Studeclunker]

When my wife died (heavens! has it been nearly twenty years?), my youngest son was only three years old. He wanted to send messages in his prayers to his mother. So (Be nice Revrand), I told him he would have to send messages via Jesus. See, the only person we could communicate with in that relm, our own home, is the Lord. So, Garrett would often add at the end of his prayers, "And Jesus, could you please tell Mummy that I love her and I'm trying real hard?"

The only person who can bridge the gulf between us and God the Father is Jesus. It isn't that the departed have amnesia, they simply aren't capable of communicating through 'the veil', as it were.

Jesus told a parable of a fellow who ended up in Sheol. The man requested to go to his brothers to persuade them to repent and be saved (kind of like Jacob Marley in Scrooge). He was told that this wasn't possible and besides, his brothers had the same writings of Moses that were available to him. This is kind of twisting the purpose of the story, and I hope everyone forgives me for this. Still, my point is that the departed have no access beyond the veil, either from our side or theirs.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Thanks

Would you mind elaborating on this some more? Thanks.

It's like being retired here on earth. Your work is done. You have other things to do...relax, vacation, play with grandkids...you know. In heaven, your earthly life is done. Does that mean that you forget those here on earth? Certainly not. But your heavenly "work" is praising God and praying for those who will come after you.

Do the saints automatically develop some sort of amnesia when it comes to their growth in the knowledge of God while they were still physical walking this earth? For example, if I ask Luther to help me understand a particular thing he wrote, it's because I believe he knows what he wrote and if he knows of my request, he should be able to help me understand what he wrote, to pass onto me, his own knowledge. Now how he does that, is of less concern, whether it's through his prayers to God or more direct contact via the Holy Spirit ect.

But why would you Pray to Luther? He was just a man, not a god. God is the one that gives us our Daily Bread. Go look in the Small Catechism under the Lord's Prayer. What does it say about Daily Bread? What IS Daily Bread? It's ALL THINGS. GOD and GOD alone gives us all things. That includes anything that Luther ever "gave" us. It came from GOD first. Period. Luther himself said "concerning the Saints, there is no such promise" in regards to praying to them and getting answers. (http://bookofconcord.org/defense_20_saints.php#article21 see verse 17)

And honestly? I think Dr Luther himself would be the first to say NO NO NO! I mean, he was all about NOT doing exactly what you're talking about.

Now it's true, I can say, "God help me understand what Luther wrote." And he would and I do ask.

Of course He would. This is the correct and proper way of doing these things.

This is not a God versus Luther thing for me. Just like I can pray to Christ without neglecting the Father and Holy Spirit,

Um, that's 'cause Jesus IS God just as the Father and Holy Spirit are GOD. They are God in 3 persons. There IS no one without the other here.

to talk to Luther no more negates my singular devotion to God.

But it DOES because in doing so, you're equating Luther with God. (or you're implying that you're equating Luther with God.) Even if you don't MEAN it that way. No matter what, Luther does not equal God and by asking LUTHER for an answer to a problem that you're having EQUATES him to GOD.

I would disagree with anyone who would say we have to pray to the saints, but by the same token, to say we can't talk to the saints like Luther, but must ask of God and no one else, seems to severe Luther from continuing to have any sort of effect on us.

He's not SUPPOSED to have "that kind" of effect on us anymore. That's not his job any longer.

And we know the saints have an effect, if they indeed pray for us, for prayer is not without effect. I don't know, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, this whole thing of "You have to talk to God and no one else", seems weird and a bit disturbing (for one, it seems to turn Gospel into Law).

But we don't have to ASK them to pray for us. They do it automatically. They LOVE us...how can anyone who loves us forget us in Heaven? It's automatic for them. (or so I believe in what I've heard about Heaven.)

Which verse are you referring to?

Leviticus 19:31

'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.'

Even if you're not going to a Hoo Doo woman or "psychic" you're still "calling up the dead" Notice what God is saying...I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD.

And when the Disciples asked Jesus "Lord teach us to pray" Jesus said "Our Father" and "Give us this day our daily bread" directly saying "ask The Father for everything"

and

"What ever you ask of the Father in My Name, it will be given to you"

Jesus goes directly to The Father. Not to Bob or Sue or Billy Joe Bob or Moses or Aaron or Joseph or any of the other "fathers"

But that is true in this life as well (the commandment was given via Moses to the congregation gathered at Sinai). So I'm confused why it means we can't talk to those in heaven

Because we're then setting up those in heaven as gods.

See, The biggest problem with praying to ANYONE other than God is really a simple definition issue!
When you look up "prayer" in the dictionary, the first 3 definitions are:

1.a devout petition to God or an object of worship.

2.a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.

3.the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

Prayer is an act of worship. We don't worship things (or people) that aren't God. Therefore, we don't pray to things (or people) that aren't God. Simple as that.
If you pray to a saint, whether it be Dr. Luther, or St. Francis of Assisi, or Joan of Arc, you're worshiping them.
You're committing idolatry, whether there's a physical idol there or not.

Why can't He work through the saints to help us, he works through the angels, why not my dad?

Thanks.

Honey, God can and does work through any means he deems necessary for our edification. But we need to ask HIM for what we need. That includes answers to ALL of life's problems.

All in all, my heart goes out to you. I know you're missing your father so very much and I pray that God will give you consolation. Just talk to God and let HIM know. After all, He is your Abba. (which means Daddy)

All the best,

Kae

 

[babychrist]

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