Talking Snakes and Donkeys? Really?

[Steve Petersen]

Hi. If I recall correctly you used to be a Christian. If so, was there ever a time when you defended the idea of a talking donkey to atheists while privately agreeing it is absurd?

Nope.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Revelation describes a "pure" Vision, from God in heaven, to John the apostle on Patmos island, earth. John was "carried away in the spirit" to breathtaking heavenly realms, based on no concrete terrestrial "prompts".

If God can communicate Visions to people, so powerful that their minds are completely overwhelmed...

then God could communicate to people "more gently", such that they were still aware of their physical earthly surroundings, onto which the Vision would be "overlain" vaguely like a fighter pilot's HUD

so...

the combination of (say) a donkey on earth, and a Vision from the Divine realm, could cause one to confusedly perceive that the Voice of God was coming from the donkey

And God can do anything. The Goddidit fallacy.

 

[Erik Nelson]

And God can do anything. The Goddidit fallacy.

God in heaven just just can't exist and just just couldn't have influenced terrestrial history ever. The "humans already know everything" fallacy.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Absurd in the extreme. But, hey the Bible says so...........

I suppose that if Jewish genealogy and theology has been written as a cumulative set of historically revealed narratives, then all kinds of interesting literary possibilities could be manifested in those narratives...

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Alright, I'll be your huckleberry, for a little while anyway...

God never approves of rape where are you getting that from...? (I think I know and it an often misquoted and misunderstood verse)... Maybe you can tell me what chapter and verse(s) or "source" as you so put it...

Numbers 31:40. Read it in context.

And there is a "God context" in which genocide is OK, and I already told you how, where when, and why...? But, only for a/the God/gods (angels) to agree upon and do...

And again, this is Hitler. You brushed it off when I said this. I demand an answer and if you ignore me again we are done.

GOTT MIT UNS

Literally "God with us" was right there under the swastika.

You unbelievably just said,

And there is a "God context" in which genocide is OK...

Do you see what I'm saying or do I have to be even more heavy handed here?

You mean when Jephthah had to keep his vow to God, as his price for his success, Unfortunately, God must teach us all about cost and sacrifice, sometimes great, very high cost and sacrifice... In God's and angels "economy", in the "realm beyond this one", this is just the way of things (thank God for Christ and the NC where the price has now been paid forever)... Anyway, His daughter was 100% completely willing to do it, because she knew it was basically a command from God... And if you read the story, Jephthah chose to make a deal (vow), or deals (vows) with God, and it's not like he "had to" either, he wanted to trade his success for a thing that he would allow God to choose under the circumstances and situation he dictated, and God chose something, someone, he did not expect, his one and only child, his only daughter, I guess to kind of throw him a curve ball I guess, to make him rethink the "cost" of making "deals" with God, cause I don't think Jephthah was expecting that, and I suspect that's the only reason God did it... God needed to show him the high cost of his "deal", all foreshadowing something God himself would do with his only begotten Son later on and high price he would have to pay for or to save us all (or as many as possible)... Jephthah chose to "tempt God" and had to pay the price, (with what he loved the most) A thing we are told not to ever do... "Jephthah" was the one who made the deal of offering a sacrifice, not God, and He might have thought that he was allowing Jehovah to choose the sacrifice, and perhaps he was, but I don't think he was expecting it to be his one and only beloved child (daughter in this case), but someone "else" maybe... And I could go on more, but it might turn into a small book so...

In short, Jephthah made deals with God and tempted God (maybe thought he was being more "cunning" more "slick" maybe, than God) and got what was coming to him...

Alternatively, you could've simply said that human sacrifice is wrong. The book of Judges is a propaganda book promoting the need for a king. Judges 19, for example, is a reuse of Lot's story that results in a civil war (which wouldn't have occurred under a king). The narrative of Judges constantly comments that everyone did what was right in their own eyes because there is no king. Jephthah fits perfectly in the narrative. Even the Bible is saying what he did was wrong. Yet here you are doing cartwheels on the ceiling to justify human sacrifice because you seemingly can't find the time to get a good understanding of your God's word despite living in a world of near-universal literacy which also has free and instant access to any information known to man. You better hope God isn't real, because if you do somehow make it into heaven it will be your eternal shame that you never bothered to gain an understanding of the Bible despite absolutely ideal circumstances.

But no God does not approve of child sacrifice or any other kinds of sins, but he does "allow" (probably reluctantly, and probably due to the weakness of men back then) for these sometimes, or "lets" them happen, but allowing and approving (and/or overlooking) are not the same thing...

God doesn't allow Jews to sacrifice Jewish children. That's the rule. I've already cited the book and chapter in which Midianites are sacrificed.

We are not supposed to make any vows or deals that "we propose" with God now, (or perhaps, ever) at least, not after Christ and under the NC... (Matthew 5:33-37)

So Jephthah was beholden to a saying of Christ that wouldn't come for a thousand years?

The Bible, all of it...



They gave an "unfaithful" report, that God considered false, 10 of the spies did, but 2 did not, and gave a faithful of true report... The two were very trustworthy (faithful)...



Addressed above...



THE BIBLE... (and the Spirit of God helped/helps a little also)...

No effort is made here to show that two honest spies existed or that they claimed the people of the land committed human sacrifice. Furthermore, I asked what would happen if the script were flipped (which was the point of my Jephthah reference) but the point was clearly lost on you.

Not a teaching I subscribe to and think is an invention of man with little to no biblical basis... We are born into a sinful world, but there is an age of innocence, that some, in less corrupt places, are able to keep for a while and may not become corrupted or responsible in God's eyes till they are well into adulthood, and in more corrupt places, the more corrupt (or lost) it is, the worse it gets (happens at a much younger age depending on the level of the corrupt nature of that people), till God either gets to a point where he has had enough, or there is just no longer a point anymore (too far gone) (no longer can be used for anything at all good anymore) for allowing that people to remain or be here anymore...

You reject original sin on the basis of it being absent from the Bible, then proceed to completely make up your own theology.

No offense but that is a stupid question... Of course not, Hitler was a man, and God did not do like or even close to what Hitler was doing or trying to do, which is (no offense) why I think this is a pretty dumb question...

No offense but this is a stupid answer. In both cases it was men committing genocide and claiming that God was with them. The comparison is apt. Deal with it.

Not such a stupid question (see below this)...



I'm sorry, but yes it would, and does make him real, cause he was real... He was a "fallen angel" and demonic spirit, a "god", (little "g") that Jehovah was contending against and having to deal with and contend with his influence upon people...

Source? None. You just made this up.

Also, Isaiah 44 is a rant about how false gods were just slabs of stone. Are you calling Isaiah a liar?

What was so hard about it...? I tired to use the simplest terms possible, do you mean my grammar is/was bad, or what...?

Yes.

Oh, well, I am Soooo very Sorry for you... (wasn't what I was trying to do anyway)...

God Bless!

Neither one of us knows what you were trying to do.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

God in heaven just just can't exist and just just couldn't have influenced terrestrial history ever. The "humans already know everything" fallacy.

It shouldn't be difficult to prove that God exists. You can assume he exists, then derive a prediction based on that assumption which comes true. That would get our attention. If you're unable to do that... ever... not even once... then God's existence doesn't influence reality, which is hardly a different scenario from God not existing at all.

 

[mark kennedy]

Absurd in the extreme. But, hey the Bible says so...........

The Serpent wasn't a snake, Revelation 20:2, Balaam's, donkey is certainly weird but it was just an unusual manifestation.

 

[Steve Petersen]

God in heaven just just can't exist and just just couldn't have influenced terrestrial history ever. The "humans already know everything" fallacy.

We know what is testable and falsifiable. God is neither of those.

 

[mark kennedy]

We know what is testable and falsifiable. God is neither of those.

That's because of what theologians call the aseity of God, his utter independence. By the time you are actually close enough to see him your moments away from final judgment.

 

[Hank77]

Numbers 31:40. Read it in context.

Do you think this verse is talking about sacrificing people to God? It isn't.

Num 31:40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of whom Jehovah's tribute was thirty and two persons.

 

[Neogaia777]

...

 

[Neogaia777]

...

 

[Hank77]

It is about dedicating people, enemies in war to destruction, as an offering to God, not the same as sacrificing them, but like I said, I'm not gonna address his/her every single "thing" he/she wishes to bring up, I don't have the time...

There wasn't any sacrifice or killing as an offering to God.
All males and women who had been with a man was killed. The women had been used to entice the men of Israel into worshiping their gods. How do we think they enticed them? So there was fornication. A plague came on Israel and 24,000 died.
This was the verse quoted that I think the poster was saying was human sacrifice but the very next verse says otherwise.

Num 31:40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of whom Jehovah's tribute was thirty and two persons.
Num 31:41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was Jehovah's heave-offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as Jehovah commanded Moses.

There is nothing there about sacrifice. The Levites, like the whole congregation was given a portion, as Eleazar priest was as well. A heave-offering is not a sacrifice.

Present made to the Tabernacle or Temple for the use of the priests.

(from

, "to lift," that is, to set apart for a special purpose from a larger quantity, either voluntarily or under compulsion) originally connoted any tax paid or gift made to a superior officer.
HEAVE-OFFERING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Neogaia777]

...

 

[Hank77]

Yes, but many times in their wars they would dedicate or devote people, places, things to destruction, which was "like" an offering to God, (if anything an offering of their obedience to God), but it's not the same as offering a sacrifice to God (things that were devoted to destruction, in say, like war)...

God Bless!

I was only addressing that particular verse.

 

[Neogaia777]

...

 

[Erik Nelson]

We know what is testable and falsifiable. God is neither of those.

you mean String Theory, Dark Energy and Dark Matter?

supernatural miracles ARE the evidence of a supernatural actor influencing earth

God has never once asked for purely blind faith, but only evidence based faith

Exodus 14:31
WHEN the Israelites saw the mighty hand of the Lord displayed against the Egyptians, the people feared the Lord and put their trust in him and in Moses his servant.

You are doubting and denying thousands of years of accumulated miracles wrought on earth by God in heaven

you are doubting eyewitnesses from thousands of years and thousands of miles removed from the events you would have us trust "just just couldn't have happened"

why should we trust your words over Saint Paul and the Apostles?

 

[Erik Nelson]

It shouldn't be difficult to prove that God exists. You can assume he exists, then derive a prediction based on that assumption which comes true. That would get our attention. If you're unable to do that... ever... not even once... then God's existence doesn't influence reality, which is hardly a different scenario from God not existing at all.

not entirely true

if we can't confine God in heaven into our science laboratory...

then we can't control all variables, and can't apply scientific method

yes?

the claim is we are in God's cosmic laboratory, and God is in ultimate control of all variables

which occasionally God manipulates in a so called miracle

-----

one prediction is that Revelation 20:9 will eventually occur

of course, that would be an extremely high standard of evidence to require...

 

[Steve Petersen]

you mean String Theory, Dark Energy and Dark Matter?

These are at least POTENTIALLY testable and falsifiable in the future as our tools develop. By definition, God is not physical and so no physical test can be made to test his existence.

supernatural miracles ARE the evidence of a supernatural actor influencing earth...You are doubting and denying thousands of years of accumulated miracles wrought on earth by God in heaven

Except that they don't happen. So, the point is moot.

you are doubting eyewitnesses

Which eyewitnesses?

why should we trust your words over Saint Paul and the Apostles?

Why should you trust St. Paul?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Except that they don't happen.

you don't know that

Which eyewitnesses?

is that a rhetorical question? If you are actually serious, then you are showing a near total ignorance of the Bible

Why should you trust St. Paul?

Saint Paul was one of the most educated people on planet earth 2000 years ago

(meanwhile, our ancestors at the same time were living on dirt floors, yes?)

if we can't trust highly educated people yesterday, why should we trust educated people today?

-----

the line of reasoning I'm hearing you tell me...

is that God in heaven is not visible and so can't exist...

and that you have not seen a miracle, and so nobody else has either because they can't exist...

but you can't see dark matter or dark energy, yet you believe in them

you say we can OBSERVE THEIR INFLUENCES...
and so INFER THEIR EXISTENCE like Le Verrier inferred Neptune

but Moses and the Israelites OBSERVED supernatural phenomena...
and so INFERRED the existence of a supernatural actor
(Exodus 14:31)

why are you so complacently reassured that our "pale blue dot" is so isolated from our heavenly environment and context?

if you can see stars and galaxies, then they can see you, so to speak