Talk about Human Depravity … for Goodness Sake!

[2PhiloVoid]

Good question. What should be done about it? Well, how would you feel if an atheist organization had been raping children for decades while covering it up with untaxed income? What would you want done in that case? I'll let your answer suffice as mine.

Simple. I'd support what needs to be done by local and federal authorities to stop the criminal actions. And so, why hasn't this happened in the U.S. just yet, at least? Or has it, NV? (I haven't yet studied this particular news item in depth, and I figure you know more about it than I do at the moment.)

Why would you not demand complete justice? Why should there ever be a situation in which you don't want complete justice? If you're ever going to cut someone some slack, why do it in a case involving child rape? And if cutting the protectors of thousands of child rapists some slack doesn't turn your stomach, shouldn't you at least consider doing so only when they come clean voluntarily? A worldwide coverup of child rape is inexcusable. I don't care if priests are pedophiles in statistically ordinary numbers - the holy church covered it up for "God knows" how long. For at least decades they were happy to take your money every week and then rape your children while protecting the rapist. I'm sorry, but I cannot find it inside me to suggest that we should just let this slide. Obviously I'm in the minority for some reason because they're still raking in the cash.

My apologies for not being more clear. When I've indicated "complete justice," I have more in mind a new federal measure that washes over society like a wave through EVERY institution, both private and commercial or religious. Why stop with the Roman Catholic church or various Protestant churches. NO, let's support some real legal measures across the board over every aspect of society in order to protect our children. And let's all stop complaining about how much "such and such programs" or legal advances might 'cost' the taxpayers to implement various measures. Once these are in place, then start with the churches. That's fine by me. But I'd like to see our government be consistent and just tear down ALL sexually immoral practices across the board, both in institutions and online and commercially, and in the churches. NO optimizations and NO stopping with just the churches.

What do you think about that NV? Does that sound too tough of a stance to make against everything immoral that plays and dilly-dallies in the face of Christ the Lord?

Of course, if you're like me, then you're going to look at this and see that there are complications in sweeping reforms that will create other eddies of legal concern and ongoing legal debate in society. But what do I know?

Anyway, on just a basic level, I think those churches should be investigated and if they're not being so looked at in depth at the moment, then they probably need to be in the near future and put a stop to all of this once and for all. I'm kind of keen on preventative measures, too, rather than just sweeping up after various social messes are made.

Prayer obviously won't accomplish anything. The laymen have presumably been praying for the church hierarchy to receive divine guidance for quite a while now and we can see how that has turned out. Write to the church? Lol, if there's no court summons in there then they won't even read it. Write your congressman? Ask him to do what? Simply stop attending church and financially supporting an organization that protects child rapists. Out of every dollar that's given, easily half of it is either used in settlements of child rape cases or stashed away in private accounts.

Well, some prayer may help, but when it comes to social issues, I personally believe that prayer should always be accompanied by verbal assertion from Christians, along with social activism of some peaceful sort.

Where should that support end? Well, what's fair punishment for decades of child torture and cover up?

Again, as per above, that's not the legal teleology that I'm referring to. OF COURSE, such perpetrators, whether they have been priests or pastors or whatever position, should be subject to the courses of the law. So, please don't misunderstand me here.

Are you asking me here if my assessment of the facts would change if the Catholic Church were to voluntarily accept full responsibility for their actions? I told you already that agape love is the best "weapon" available to Christians, and of course it is the least used as well. If the evil, corrupt men atop the hierarchy gave away all their worldly possessions and lived out their lives in humble penance, as they clearly should, then it would do far more to raise the eyebrows of atheists than any flimsy argument we've seen to date.

I'm all for agape love, although I think you and I might have some different interpretations as to what exactly that entails in actual practice. As we've discussed long ago, I don't think agape love requires Christians to just place themselves in financial straights for the sake of the world. But that's another discussion for another thread.

Obviously the church is morally obligated to liquidate its assets and pour all of it out upon those that it has wronged, followed by total dissolution of its formal structure. Perhaps doing that would be quite eye-opening. If the Pope and all of the cardinals claimed that they saw the same vision of Christ and were commanded to sell all that they have and give the money away, and they obeyed this... then that would be pretty compelling. It would be strong indirect evidence.

I think liquidation of assets is a bit much, although I can agree with you that liquidation of sin among Christians, particularly any churches that are harboring individuals that they know are guilty of the issue you're focusing on here would be of insurmountable worth.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

In all this discussion, I still haven't heard a logical and straightforward answer to my question. Why does God allow evil like this to occur?

You’re never going to hear one, because one doesn’t exist...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You’re never going to hear one, because one doesn’t exist...

Yeah, I kind of already explained that to him, even if in another way. But, thanks for the assist!

 

[Ana the Ist]

Studies have shown the primary factor is the Institutional nature of the organisation, on whether or not child abuse occurs therein.

What studies?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

What studies?

There are many, but this is my usually go to one - being a large study done about as accurately as one could expect:

Child sexual abuse in religiously affiliated and secular institutions: a retrospective descriptive analysis of data provided by victims in a government-sponsored reappraisal program in Germany

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are many, but this is my usually go to one - being a large study done about as accurately as one could expect:

Child sexual abuse in religiously affiliated and secular institutions: a retrospective descriptive analysis of data provided by victims in a government-sponsored reappraisal program in Germany

Ok...I'm not going to criticize the methodology or results. After all, that's Germany in 2010.

I will say here in the US....we're still seeing rather large increases year to year...

US Catholic Church reports big rise in sex-abuse allegations

That's a 50% increase from like a year before. If numbers were in the "normal range" back in 2010...then by the time the extent of the damage is laid bare, we may find an extraordinary amount of abuse happening in the church. That's not even mentioning the extent of effort to cover up said abuse...so the corruption is another issue.

One has to wonder if it's got anything to do with the moral "benefit of the doubt" people are willing to extend their moral "leaders"?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ok...I'm not going to criticize the methodology or results. After all, that's Germany in 2010.

I will say here in the US....we're still seeing rather large increases year to year...

US Catholic Church reports big rise in sex-abuse allegations

That's a 50% increase from like a year before. If numbers were in the "normal range" back in 2010...then by the time the extent of the damage is laid bare, we may find an extraordinary amount of abuse happening in the church. That's not even mentioning the extent of effort to cover up said abuse...so the corruption is another issue.

One has to wonder if it's got anything to do with the moral "benefit of the doubt" people are willing to extend their moral "leaders"?

For once, I think you've made a reasonably good point on something, Ana, more or less. But keep in mind, Quid is writing from outside the U.S., so his perspective may be a little more expansive in considering all of this.

Ana, why do you think we see these increases you've cited? From the article you provided, it seems that some of the answer to this is:

“Victims are coming forward now because of real progress by secular authorities,” said the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. “Lawmakers are increasingly getting rid of archaic, predator-friendly laws and 16 attorneys general have launched investigations, so many victims are feeling hopeful.”​

And @Quid est Veritas?, are there any studies on this kind of thing that apply to churches among you Aussies?

 

[Ana the Ist]

For once, I think you've made a reasonably good point on something, Ana, more or less.

For once??

Once?!?

JUST ONCE?!?!

....well once is better than never I suppose.

Ana, why do you think we see these increases you've cited? From the article you provided, it seems that some of the answer to this is:

Ummmm...you know what? Who knows?!? It's probably a combination of things. Increased encouragement for reporting both within the church and without. The likelihood of those reports being taken more seriously. There's a mix of reasons, right? A spectrum. If we're talking about the entire spectrum...there's certainly some opportunists in there. I think the Catholic church here in the US has paid out 300$ million in just one year.

There's also the waning influence of the church. When it loses it's previous stranglehold on the community....it loses the power to threaten community members with ostracism. One has to be afraid of losing their standing in the church for that threat to hold any weight....

That may perhaps be the underpinning for the rest of the reasons. How did Diderot put it? When the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest, mankind will finally be free?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Simple. I'd support what needs to be done by local and federal authorities to stop the criminal actions. And so, why hasn't this happened in the U.S. just yet, at least? Or has it, NV? (I haven't yet studied this particular news item in depth, and I figure you know more about it than I do at the moment.)

The law is not just for protecting. It's also for punishing.

The Catholic Church did not come clean willingly. They were exposed. They would still be raping children with regularity to this day had they not been outed. So they are not remorseful. They don't care. And they will continue to do what benefits them. There needs to be a punishment, and like I said, that punishment would have been swift and unmerciful had it been an atheist organization doing the same thing.

So what needs to be done is the total dissolution of the hierarchy. All America can do is handle what is within its borders, something they have barely even started doing.

My apologies for not being more clear. When I've indicated "complete justice," I have more in mind a new federal measure that washes over society like a wave through EVERY institution, both private and commercial or religious. Why stop with the Roman Catholic church or various Protestant churches. NO, let's support some real legal measures across the board over every aspect of society in order to protect our children. And let's all stop complaining about how much "such and such programs" or legal advances might 'cost' the taxpayers to implement various measures. Once these are in place, then start with the churches. That's fine by me. But I'd like to see our government be consistent and just tear down ALL sexually immoral practices across the board, both in institutions and online and commercially, and in the churches. NO optimizations and NO stopping with just the churches.

Yes, any organization that systematically covers up child rape needs to be forcibly dissolved, its hierarchy incarcerated and its assets liquidated.

What do you think about that NV? Does that sound too tough of a stance to make against everything immoral that plays and dilly-dallies in the face of Christ the Lord?

Of course, if you're like me, then you're going to look at this and see that there are complications in sweeping reforms that will create other eddies of legal concern and ongoing legal debate in society. But what do I know?

What reforms are needed? Child rape is illegal. We have a legal system in place. The only thing that needs to change is for the authorities to do their actual job, which is to dispense justice impartially.

Anyway, on just a basic level, I think those churches should be investigated and if they're not being so looked at in depth at the moment, then they probably need to be in the near future and put a stop to all of this once and for all. I'm kind of keen on preventative measures, too, rather than just sweeping up after various social messes are made.

Well, some prayer may help, but when it comes to social issues, I personally believe that prayer should always be accompanied by verbal assertion from Christians, along with social activism of some peaceful sort.

No, prayer won't help because it has a strong track record of doing absolutely nothing. But yes, it would be helpful if Christians were interested in justice in this instance. But I won't hold my breath.

Again, as per above, that's not the legal teleology that I'm referring to. OF COURSE, such perpetrators, whether they have been priests or pastors or whatever position, should be subject to the courses of the law. So, please don't misunderstand me here.

You're obviously in the minority of Christians then.

I'm all for agape love, although I think you and I might have some different interpretations as to what exactly that entails in actual practice. As we've discussed long ago, I don't think agape love requires Christians to just place themselves in financial straights for the sake of the world. But that's another discussion for another thread.

Whether Christians should have money is a different topic. The church certainly should not. Instead of going above and beyond in taking responsibility for its heinous crimes, the church has fought tooth and nail against every rape victim that has come forward and given them the least they can possibly get away with while also forcing them to sign their victim rights away.

I think liquidation of assets is a bit much,

Why? Explain. Because from what I see, aside from thousands of cases of child rape, torture, abuse of power and trust, conspiracy, and etc, we have the issue of racketeering. To say that the church has bilked its patrons is quite an understatement. Using the money in the epitome of "bad faith" is racketeering, plain and simple.

although I can agree with you that liquidation of sin among Christians, particularly any churches that are harboring individuals that they know are guilty of the issue you're focusing on here would be of insurmountable worth.

I don't care if you people sin. Just don't break the law.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Ok...I'm not going to criticize the methodology or results. After all, that's Germany in 2010.

I will say here in the US....we're still seeing rather large increases year to year...

US Catholic Church reports big rise in sex-abuse allegations

That's a 50% increase from like a year before. If numbers were in the "normal range" back in 2010...then by the time the extent of the damage is laid bare, we may find an extraordinary amount of abuse happening in the church. That's not even mentioning the extent of effort to cover up said abuse...so the corruption is another issue.

One has to wonder if it's got anything to do with the moral "benefit of the doubt" people are willing to extend their moral "leaders"?

So as studies into abuse have shown, the problem is how effectively the predator can groom, and how much trust is placed in him. This is why the paramount factor is the Institutional nature of the organisation. The Catholic Church is highly regimented and hierarchical, with built-in systems of confidentiality, so it is tailor-made to be exploited in this manner. Prior to all these modern revelations, a similar thing happened before amongst the Piarist Schools in the 17th, leading to the temporary suppression of the order by the Papacy to stamp it out. The religiousness vs secular nature has not been shown to have much effect, as whether religious or not, the more highly Institutionalised an organisation is, the higher the incidence of abuse therein. The data even suggests, though not with high confidence, that religious organisations are slightly less susceptible.

The problem of sexual abuse in the US is legion. Recently there have been scandals in US Athletics, Figure Skating, the Boy Scouts, etc., not to mention the fraternities and University policies that amount to limited punishment for rape. The Catholic Church is simply a further swell of this, which I would place on the loosening of public morals in general, perhaps - though the causes are obviously multifactorial. That the Catholic scandal is breaking now, and growing worse and worse, is an indictment of the failure of the Church hierarchy to stop it, that they turned a blind eye so long; but is more a product of the nature of its organisation than its essence - similarly, no one would suggest competitive Athletics predisposes to abuse, but it is quite common therein as well.

For once, I think you've made a reasonably good point on something, Ana, more or less. But keep in mind, Quid is writing from outside the U.S., so his perspective may be a little more expansive in considering all of this.

Ana, why do you think we see these increases you've cited? From the article you provided, it seems that some of the answer to this is:

“Victims are coming forward now because of real progress by secular authorities,” said the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. “Lawmakers are increasingly getting rid of archaic, predator-friendly laws and 16 attorneys general have launched investigations, so many victims are feeling hopeful.”​

And @Quid est Veritas?, are there any studies on this kind of thing that apply to churches among you Aussies?

Um, I am not Australian. I am South African. I know that Australia also has an abuse problem in their Catholic Church, though unaware of any studies to that effect. I was interested in a Catholic school here in South Africa, so I read up about all these things and what was found to predispose to sexual abuse. It is about how much you trust someone else with your children in the end, as inevitably anyone who does such things are selfish and manipulative, if not downright psychopathic. Look at Michael Jackson, for instance, or we had a high-powered lawyer here that wormed her way into Charities in order to abuse kids she took on 'special outings'.

Our Catholic Church largely escaped this, so our most recent paedophile scandals were in a premiere private school in Johannesburg, and the aforementioned 'Advocate Barbie' story. While the scandals amongst the Catholics are egregious, paedophile psychopaths worm their way into confidence wherever they can - the Catholic Church was just a convenient pathway recently open to them to do so, that gave them opportunity, and which was nice enough to cover for them in fear of secularists pointing fingers, which they ended up doing anyway. The religious nature thereof plays little part - the more trust is placed in an individual, and the less oversight or safeguards in place, the more abuse occurs. These aren't crimes of convenience or passion, but coldly calculated acts of evil that often times takes years of preparation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Um, I am not Australian. I am South African.

Oops. Sorry. I remember now you're a South Africaner. Please forgive the oversight of this, here, 'Yankee.'

I know that Australia also has an abuse problem in their Catholic Church, though unaware of any studies to that effect. I was interested in a Catholic school here in South Africa, so I read up about all these things and what was found to predispose to sexual abuse. It is about how much you trust someone else with your children in the end, as inevitably anyone who does such things are selfish and manipulative, if not downright psychopathic. Look at Michael Jackson, for instance, or we had a high-powered lawyer here that wormed her way into Charities in order to abuse kids she took on 'special outings'.

Our Catholic Church largely escaped this, so our most recent paedophile scandals were in a premiere private school in Johannesburg, and the aforementioned 'Advocate Barbie' story. While the scandals amongst the Catholics are egregious, paedophile psychopaths worm their way into confidence wherever they can - the Catholic Church was just a convenient pathway recently open to them to do so, that gave them opportunity, and which was nice enough to cover for them in fear of secularists pointing fingers, which they ended up doing anyway. The religious nature thereof plays little part - the more trust is placed in an individual, and the less oversight or safeguards in place, the more abuse occurs. These aren't crimes of convenience or passion, but coldly calculated acts of evil that often times takes years of preparation.

... y'know, just hearing your report and your assessment on this, such as you have, I'm reminded of an idea that came to me as I was writing in another forum on the subject of 'celibacy,' and with all of this kind of human depravity in mind, I'm almost thinking that disturbing situation where some priest or other church leader, if he is really experiencing in his mind a split devotion to God on the one hand but also proclivity for children on the other, he should probably very seriously consider the whole act of devotion to Christ by becoming a "Eunuch for the Kingdom" ...this might bring a whole new meaning to "preventative care," especially as it has a place in the work, ministry and moral accountability of the Church.

Otherwise, I see no reason why Secular authorities shouldn't just knock down the doors of the church and find out what's going on ...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The law is not just for protecting. It's also for punishing.

The Catholic Church did not come clean willingly. They were exposed. They would still be raping children with regularity to this day had they not been outed. So they are not remorseful. They don't care. And they will continue to do what benefits them. There needs to be a punishment, and like I said, that punishment would have been swift and unmerciful had it been an atheist organization doing the same thing.

So what needs to be done is the total dissolution of the hierarchy. All America can do is handle what is within its borders, something they have barely even started doing.

When you say "total dissolution of the heirarchy," what are you meaning precisely in this instance. It's not clear. Are you saying you think the Vatican should be dismantled because some percentage of it's ecclesial structure is infected with moral corruption? I'm not sure I'd support that, just like I wouldn't support the complete elimination of some random Atheist organization that was found to have some of its members guilty of this or that form of human depravity. No, to simply find the actual perpetrators and deal with them should be enough, and if some of the other clergy covered for them, then....oh, I don't know.....hold another "Nuremberg Trial."

Yes, any organization that systematically covers up child rape needs to be forcibly dissolved, its hierarchy incarcerated and its assets liquidated.

Oh, I should have read ahead and I would have seen this answer just below the part above. **sigh**

What reforms are needed? Child rape is illegal. We have a legal system in place. The only thing that needs to change is for the authorities to do their actual job, which is to dispense justice impartially.

That sounds fine by me within certain limits, but since it is a democracy, we'll have to deliberate over just exactly what justice is and how it should be meted out for various crimes and/or forms of depravity.

No, prayer won't help because it has a strong track record of doing absolutely nothing. But yes, it would be helpful if Christians were interested in justice in this instance. But I won't hold my breath.

You're obviously in the minority of Christians then.

...being that I'm a philosopher, I think this kind of goes without saying, don't you think?

Whether Christians should have money is a different topic. The church certainly should not. Instead of going above and beyond in taking responsibility for its heinous crimes, the church has fought tooth and nail against every rape victim that has come forward and given them the least they can possibly get away with while also forcing them to sign their victim rights away.

....well, I won't argue that I've heard at least that much; I'm all willing as a Christian for judgment to start with the church, but I'm not willing that it should END with the church. So, there is that little string that, for me, remains attached to this whole issue.

Why? Explain. Because from what I see, aside from thousands of cases of child rape, torture, abuse of power and trust, conspiracy, and etc, we have the issue of racketeering. To say that the church has bilked its patrons is quite an understatement. Using the money in the epitome of "bad faith" is racketeering, plain and simple.

Well, you can focus on the Church, and I, as a Christian, will take that in mind and focus on more obvious examples of Organized Crime, wherever they may be and at whatever level they may be. I think you need to be more consistent and be more inclusive here in your criminal analysis. If the Church goes down hard, then so should the Mafia and all similar kinds of groups or organizations ...

I don't care if you people sin. Just don't break the law.

I care about BOTH. So, somehow, I'm thinking that our respective philosophies are going to mediate just how we might each think these problems will need to be resolved.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Oops. Sorry. I remember now you're a South Africaner. Please forgive the oversight of this, here, 'Yankee.'


... y'know, just hearing your report and your assessment on this, such as you have, I'm reminded of an idea that came to me as I was writing in another forum on the subject of 'celibacy,' and with all of this kind of human depravity in mind, I'm almost thinking that disturbing situation where some priest or other church leader, if he is really experiencing in his mind a split devotion to God on the one hand but also proclivity for children on the other, he should probably very seriously consider the whole act of devotion to Christ by becoming a "Eunuch for the Kingdom" ...this might bring a whole new meaning to "preventative care," especially as it has a place in the work, ministry and moral accountability of the Church.

Otherwise, I see no reason why Secular authorities shouldn't just knock down the doors of the church and find out what's going on ...

Supposedly that is what Origen did. Then again though, if you are commited to a celibate priesthood, I see no reason why not have yourself castrated if unable to control your impulses.

I am of the opinion though, that these are not mostly people 'in two minds'. From what I read, some priests washed out altar boys' mouths with holy water after forcing them to perform oral sex, or others dressed up a boy as Jesus on the cross before sodomising him. These are acts of apostasy, as this entails rejection of what they are supposed to hold holy. It is clearly the intention to profane and debase, as if performing a Black Mass. They aren't Catholic Priests so much, as psychopaths abusing the trust in the Church and revelling in their misuse and desecration of the weak. It is in very much the same spirit as these people that watch children being tortured and raped on the Internet. I doubt they started off as devout people seeking the priesthood for noble aims in most cases, though that is perhaps possible in a minority.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oops. Sorry. I remember now you're a South Africaner. Please forgive the oversight of this, here, 'Yankee.'


... y'know, just hearing your report and your assessment on this, such as you have, I'm reminded of an idea that came to me as I was writing in another forum on the subject of 'celibacy,' and with all of this kind of human depravity in mind, I'm almost thinking that disturbing situation where some priest or other church leader, if he is really experiencing in his mind a split devotion to God on the one hand but also proclivity for children on the other, he should probably very seriously consider the whole act of devotion to Christ by becoming a "Eunuch for the Kingdom" ...this might bring a whole new meaning to "preventative care," especially as it has a place in the work, ministry and moral accountability of the Church.

Otherwise, I see no reason why Secular authorities shouldn't just knock down the doors of the church and find out what's going on ...

Is the "prayer" icon you've designated on my post intended on my behalf or that of our mutual concern over the fate of the various churches? I ask, because this is the third time this week I've received a 'prayer' icon for some issue I don't believe I need prayer over. Just to be clear.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Supposedly that is what Origen did. Then again though, if you are commited to a celibate priesthood, I see no reason why not have yourself castrated if unable to control your impulses.

I am of the opinion though, that these are not mostly people 'in two minds'. From what I read, some priests washed out altar boys' mouths with holy water after forcing them to perform oral sex, or others dressed up a boy as Jesus on the cross before sodomising him. These are acts of apostasy, as this entails rejection of what they are supposed to hold holy. It is clearly the intention to profane and debase, as if performing a Black Mass. They aren't Catholic Priests so much, as psychopaths abusing the trust in the Church and revelling in their misuse and desecration of the weak. It is in very much the same spirit as these people that watch children being tortured and raped on the Internet. I doubt they started off as devout people seeking the priesthood for noble aims in most cases, though that is perhaps possible in a minority.

I appreciate you bringing all of these details out for us to consider in this thread Quid, most particularly since my primary focus in my overall studies has been the impact of inappropriate contentography on Family and Individual human psychology and social structures, and thereby as an sickening influence upon our spirituality in Christ.

I will say that before I read what you've thus far shared in this thread I hadn't realized the extent of this pedo-priest problem since my attention has been upon the permeation and ubiquity of things like Hugh Hefner's Playboy Philosophy, which as the world turns, in my estimation is even more damning to many people ...................... because so many take it so lightly these days, and so widely.

In fact, it almost seems to me that the focus is and has been ONLY upon what is illegal rather than also upon those seemingly subtle human depravities (or "sins" as we say in the Church) wherever they may be found in our world and society. Think: Solomon Syndrome in a new vein, gone to seed in the world at large (and no, I'm not referring to the medical condition).

It's really overdue for the World to wake up, on all counts both illegal and in the mis-nomer of what has been by law and government allowed to become legal; yes, our spiritual warfare here is not just on those sins and human depravity which are so obviously heinous but on all sins which separate us from the love of God which we should have in Christ, if any of us so decides to avail ourselves in full.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Is the "prayer" icon you've designated on my post intended on my behalf or that of our mutual concern over the fate of the various churches? I ask, because this is the third time this week I've received a 'prayer' icon for some issue I don't believe I need prayer over. Just to be clear.

Prayers for the state of Man, that we can think someone so degraded to sexually abuse children might have any devotion to God whatsoever. Hopefully, a communal prayer, in other words.

I appreciate you bringing all of these details out for us to consider in this thread Quid, most particularly since my primary focus in my overall studies has been the impact of inappropriate contentography on Family and Individual human psychology and social structures, and thereby as an sickening influence upon our spirituality in Christ.

I will say that before I read what you've thus far shared in this thread that I realized the extent of this pedo-priest problem since my attention has been upon the permeation and ubiquity of things like Hugh Hefner's Playboy Philosophy, which as the world turns, in my estimation is even more damning to many people ...................... because so many take it so lightly these days, and so widely.

In fact, it almost seems to me that the focus is and has been ONLY upon what is illegal rather than on also upon those seemingly subtle human depravities (or "sins" as we say in the Church) wherever they may be found in our world and society. Think: Solomon Syndrome in a new vein, gone to seed in the world at large (and no, I'm not referring to the medical condition).

It's really overdue for the World to wake up, on all counts both illegal and in the mis-nomer of what has been by law and government allowed to become legal; yes, our spiritual warfare here is not just on those sins and human depravity which are so obviously heinous but on all sins which separate us from the love of God which we should have in Christ, if any of us so decides to avail ourselves in full.

People forget the power of Representation. The growth of inappropriate contentography, the weakened valence placed on the Family, the antinatalism, etc. are all a part of the decline of the West. We have shifted from a communal life, to an individualised and largely selfish one. The problem is larger than inappropriate contentography, but a lack of meaning and a tendency to reduce Man from the Rational soul to the Animal one. We are making Men without Chests, in Lewis' phrase. On the one hand we prop up mere gratification, on the other we undermine virtues - then replace it with hollow ones like Tolerance or being an 'Influencer' that are so chimaeric to be pointless. No wonder Suicide is growing so much more common. Not only religious writers predicted this, but people like Huxley and Orwell did too. I mean, the 'thoughtcrime' and violently sexual are mixed in Julia in 1984, for instance. The very fact that inappropriate contentography could be normalised is a symptom thereof, rather than a cause - that Man has ceased to think of himself as having inner process separate from his animal one. In like manner how Nature has been emptied of meaning, by reducing man to merely of Nature, we empty out the meaning within ourselves. In short, I agree, that by not living in-Christ as Paul said, we are left only with the facade and apology of Selfish Genes we constructed. Man is progressively isolating himself from God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Prayers for the state of Man, that we can think someone so degraded to sexually abuse children might have any devotion to God whatsoever. Hopefully, a communal prayer, in other words.

Yes, much prayer is needed but I'd add that verbal assertions for accountability in and outside of the Church are needed as well.

People forget the power of Representation. The growth of inappropriate contentography, the weakened valence placed on the Family, the antinatalism, etc. are all a part of the decline of the West. We have shifted from a communal life, to an individualised and largely selfish one. The problem is larger than inappropriate contentography, but a lack of meaning and a tendency to reduce Man from the Rational soul to the Animal one. We are making Men without Chests, in Lewis' phrase. On the one hand we prop up mere gratification, on the other we undermine virtues - then replace it with hollow ones like Tolerance or being an 'Influencer' that are so chimaeric to be pointless. No wonder Suicide is growing so much more common. Not only religious writers predicted this, but people like Huxley and Orwell did too. I mean, the 'thoughtcrime' and violently sexual are mixed in Julia in 1984, for instance. The very fact that inappropriate contentography could be normalised is a symptom thereof, rather than a cause - that Man has ceased to think of himself as having inner process separate from his animal one. In like manner how Nature has been emptied of meaning, by reducing man to merely of Nature, we empty out the meaning within ourselves. In short, I agree, that by not living in-Christ as Paul said, we are left only with the facade and apology of Selfish Genes we constructed. Man is progressively isolating himself from God.

That's an excellent exposition and gets at the substance of the overall problem, but like you, I'd like to offer a few specifics to this little tangent which I'm now extending to the rest of our discussion on human depravity and what you've termed, "the State of Man," most specifically in relation to how things stand ... today.

In fact, we might want to consider how human depravity becomes lodged by and through the intricacies and developments of LAW and CORPORATE PANDERING in the modern U.S. and similarly, I would think, in other parts of the world. It's something that seemingly hangs silent in the background behind all we do, remaining somewhat hidden and unaccounted for, but as Legal scholar Ann Bartow (2008) explains in the following article, among others that I've found, the blame for those corporate and legal "renderings" which I see as sin doesn't just lie with the people.

As I've read this article, I've been reminded of Sir Walter Scott's saying, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

(Also, for those who may wish to read the following article in relation to the OP, please be aware before reading that Ann Bartow mentions a few of the very unseemly aspects of the the overall Industry structures she's inquiring into in her legal analysis.)

Reference
Bartow, Ann. "Copyright Law and inappropriate contentography: Reconsidering Incentives to Create and Distributive inappropriate contentography." U. Balt. LF 39 (2008): 75.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ok. Since this thread has nearly stalled, I'm going to try to kick start it by bringing in the follow song/video from the band, We As Human with a vocal assist from Lacey Sturm, as an additional [scary] angle for us to consider in all of this discussion about human depravity...and Christian Apologetics?

So, we've talked about some awful stuff so far, but are suicidal tendencies an aspect or form of unfortunate human depravity (as well as mental health) which need to be addressed by Christian Apologetics? I think so .......... and this video attempts to be that 'kind' of address. Does this kind of thing help the cause of Christian Apologetics, or should Christian Apologetics INCLUDE an actual concern for real human well-being, and not just talking about what we all think it is or isn't?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

When you say "total dissolution of the heirarchy," what are you meaning precisely in this instance.

No more priests, bishops, or cardinals.

It's not clear. Are you saying you think the Vatican should be dismantled because some percentage of it's ecclesial structure is infected with moral corruption?

Lol, "some percentage." 100% is a percentage. Is that enough for you? Or what is your threshold and what is your burden of proof that you want to saddle on me to establish said threshold?

And how many times can a foreign king persuade American citizens to cover up child rape before it's just got to be considered an act of war? How much corruption of justice should we tolerate in order to maintain relations with a small, worthless nation that has no defenses and whose sole form of income is coming off the backs of foreign peasants?

I'm not sure I'd support that, just like I wouldn't support the complete elimination of some random Atheist organization that was found to have some of its members guilty of this or that form of human depravity. No, to simply find the actual perpetrators and deal with them should be enough, and if some of the other clergy covered for them, then....oh, I don't know.....hold another "Nuremberg Trial."

The Nazi party was forcibly dissolved, even if there were some innocent Nazis. I'm sure there was one Nazi who didn't participate in torture or execution of civilians and who was unaware of the conspiracy to commit genocide and mass murder. Should the Nazi party have been spared then? Sorry, I know it's a bit of a loaded question - you either concede the point or look like a Nazi sympathizer. To be clear, I would absolutely not label you as such. But it was pretty clear back then that the Nazis had to go. It's clear that the same thing applies today to the church, but there are a couple billion Christians who are content to let the church literally get away with murder.

Oh, I should have read ahead and I would have seen this answer just below the part above. **sigh**

That sounds fine by me within certain limits,

Why would you limit the impartial dispensation of justice?

but since it is a democracy, we'll have to deliberate over just exactly what justice is and how it should be meted out for various crimes and/or forms of depravity.

When you say democracy I assume you're referring to America. There's no debate needed. The law was broken and there are protocols in place to deal with it. But the overwhelming majority of Americans being Christian have been letting it slide for ages.

Priests know this. A limited version of Christianity is allowed in China and we don't see Chinese kids getting raped because the priests know they will get a ten cent bullet in the back of their head.

...being that I'm a philosopher, I think this kind of goes without saying, don't you think?

What goes without saying?

....well, I won't argue that I've heard at least that much; I'm all willing as a Christian for judgment to start with the church,

No, it should not, as that would be targeted persecution. We want impartial prosecution.

but I'm not willing that it should END with the church. So, there is that little string that, for me, remains attached to this whole issue.

This whole time have you been thinking that I only want to see the church held accountable for child rape? I fully support the forcible dissolution of the Cub Scouts... oh wait, they mandate a belief in God also... maybe there is a correlation between systematic cover up of child rape and theism?

Well, you can focus on the Church, and I, as a Christian, will take that in mind and focus on more obvious examples of Organized Crime, wherever they may be and at whatever level they may be.

Oh, so you did think I've only got it out for the church. Well, good on you for taking it in stride, bit no that is not my focus. It's my frustration because let's face it - they are getting special treatment.

I think you need to be more consistent and be more inclusive here in your criminal analysis.

No I don't.

If the Church goes down hard, then so should the Mafia and all similar kinds of groups or organizations ...

Yes, they obviously should go down. Although the Italian mafia is basically the left hand of the Catholic Church.

I care about BOTH. So, somehow, I'm thinking that our respective philosophies are going to mediate just how we might each think these problems will need to be resolved.

Resolve it with the law which is already in place.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No more priests, bishops, or cardinals.

So, you'd be fine with just the list of church leader types that Paul has provided? Or did I see bishop on his list, I can't remember?

Lol, "some percentage." 100% is a percentage. Is that enough for you? Or what is your threshold and what is your burden of proof that you want to saddle on me to establish said threshold?

And how many times can a foreign king persuade American citizens to cover up child rape before it's just got to be considered an act of war? How much corruption of justice should we tolerate in order to maintain relations with a small, worthless nation that has no defenses and whose sole form of income is coming off the backs of foreign peasants?

I can understand your grief in this, and while I think that firmer measures should be taken against those individuals EVERYWHERE who are involved in the issues we're talking about at this moment, I'm not yet convinced that the Roman Catholic church is, in and of itself, the "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT"!, I'm simply thinking in lesser terms, with questions like: When Jesus said He hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans, just exactly what did He mean and how will He deal with it? Yeah, I'm thinking that justice could roll down upon the Catholic church, as it should for ANY church that names the name of Jesus Christ who ignores and covers up various serious moral scandals.

The Nazi party was forcibly dissolved, even if there were some innocent Nazis. I'm sure there was one Nazi who didn't participate in torture or execution of civilians and who was unaware of the conspiracy to commit genocide and mass murder. Should the Nazi party have been spared then? Sorry, I know it's a bit of a loaded question - you either concede the point or look like a Nazi sympathizer. To be clear, I would absolutely not label you as such. But it was pretty clear back then that the Nazis had to go. It's clear that the same thing applies today to the church, but there are a couple billion Christians who are content to let the church literally get away with murder.

Yeah, I'm not going to sympathize with any Nazis or with any people who call themselves Christians, especially if they're church leaders of one kind or another, who can't seem to keep their hands off our children.

Why would you limit the impartial dispensation of justice?

Again, I've already noted the delimiters I think should be present when considering 'how' justice in this situation should be dispensed. Besides, you're going to have to consider the fact that since I am a Christian, the overall ethical Matrix that is jostling in my head will HAVE to come to play in my overall conception of what justice is in this case and how is should be meted out. Again, I'm fine with justice being meted out in a way, but as I Christian I'd want to think that justice is being meted out as it truly should be and not as it has been hastily scribbled on a note pad by various angry atheists. Of course, this isn't to say that at the end of the judicial day, my estimation of how justice should be meted out won't perhaps look very similar to what has been scribbled in haste by the angry atheist.

When you say democracy I assume you're referring to America. There's no debate needed. The law was broken and there are protocols in place to deal with it. But the overwhelming majority of Americans being Christian have been letting it slide for ages.

Yeah. At present, I am really only thinking about those diocese sitting within U.S. borders since those are most socially relevant to me (kind of). The Vatican is, on the other hand, just some European edifice that sits over yonder in that there place called Italy, so, it's kind of far from home and since I'm not specifically Roman Catholic my emotional investments aren't really focused upon REFORMING the entire world.

Priests know this. A limited version of Christianity is allowed in China and we don't see Chinese kids getting raped because the priests know they will get a ten cent bullet in the back of their head.

A "limited version" of Christianity? What pray tell to you mean my that? How can one have a "limited version" of Christianity? Is this to imply that Roman Catholicism is a "maximal version" of Christianity, so it isn't allowed in China?

What goes without saying?

It means that it goes without saying that I'm in a minority among Christians ........

No, it should not, as that would be targeted persecution. We want impartial prosecution.

Well, wherever there are human emotions involved, how impartial can it all really be?

This whole time have you been thinking that I only want to see the church held accountable for child rape? I fully support the forcible dissolution of the Cub Scouts... oh wait, they mandate a belief in God also... maybe there is a correlation between systematic cover up of child rape and theism?

Again, bringing this issue back to the OP, would an enactment of "forcible dissolution" really prove to be a "proof" of Christianity for you? Because remember, this thread isn't merely an Ethics thread; I'm not trying to reproduce merely what can be said and debated over in that other forum here on CF. No, I'm wondering how all of this discussion might help (or hinder) the qualities of Christian Apologetics. Think: Paul standing before various governors. You remember those stories, don't you? That's the kind of this I'm shooting for here.

Oh, so you did think I've only got it out for the church. Well, good on you for taking it in stride, bit no that is not my focus. It's my frustration because let's face it - they are getting special treatment.

Well, don't know. Sometimes I have to remind myself that your avatar and screen name don't actually say, "Annihilationist Virus."

No I don't.

Yes, they obviously should go down. Although the Italian mafia is basically the left hand of the Catholic Church.

I wasn't talking specifically about Europe; but now that you bring it up .....

Resolve it with the law which is already in place.

And what do you think is the legal hold up in in the U.S. on this? Does some law or religious ordinance have to be changed to see justice roll?