Talk about Human Depravity … for Goodness Sake!

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What

Yahweh Says in His Word to think upon - pure, holy, gentle, true -

Do.

As He Says.

Not defiling the mind nor the body nor the soul nor others with corruption.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yahweh Says in His Word to think upon - pure, holy, gentle, true -

Do.

As He Says.

Not defiling the mind nor the body nor the soul nor others with corruption.

Yep. You're right. Good point.

So, do you think "talking about" human depravity, at least sometimes, and in constructive, instructive, or perhaps even prophetic ways, is a pure, holy, socially helpful, and true thing to do?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The sky isn’t falling. We’re less safe now, only if you ignore the whole of history. And most atrocities committed worldwide are, by and large, under the guise of religion.

On the contrary, we’re safer than we’ve ever been, thanks to education and the rise of secularism.

This can be true, and I can agree with you. Interestingly enough, you might be surprised to find that Blaise Pascal agreed with you as well:

‘Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction’.​

So, I'm guessing that you think some talk about human depravity WOULD BE useful in helping Christian Apologists to bridge the 'gap' that might be left lying fallow out in Christian-dom?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yep. You're right. Good point.

So, do you think "talking about" human depravity, at least sometimes, and in constructive, instructive, or perhaps even prophetic ways, is a pure, holy, socially helpful, and true thing to do?

Not most of the time.
Not for most people.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Not most of the time.
Not for most people.

Well, doesn't the Bible talk a lot about human sins and how we need to inform people about their predicament without Christ before the face of Yahweh, Lord?

 

[HitchSlap]

This can be true, and I can agree with you. Interestingly enough, you might be surprised to find that Blaise Pascal agreed with you too as well:

‘Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction’.​

So, I'm guessing that you think some talk about human depravity WOULD BE useful in helping Christian Apologists to bridge the 'gap' that might be left lying fallow out in Christian-dom?

“Depravity” is a Christian notion and has very little to do with actual morals, and sounds more like an excuse to classify behavior and choices Christians don’t like as immoral.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

“Depravity” is a Christian notion and has very little to do with actual morals, and sounds more like an excuse to classify behavior and choices Christians don’t like as immoral.

Surely you're not implying that human depravity of any kind doesn't exist, right? I mean, just look at the first post of @Quid est Veritas? way up above (post #2). Shouldn't that count? And shouldn't slowly poisoning ourselves with pollution knowingly and negligently count as human depravity as well, with or without the Bible? No?

 

[HitchSlap]

Surely you're not implying that human depravity of any kind doesn't exist, right? I mean, just look at the first post of @Quid est Veritas? way up above (post #2). Shouldn't that count? And shouldn't slowly poisoning ourselves with pollution knowingly and negligently count as human depravity as well, with or without the Bible? No?

Depravity has an emotional component to it. Suffice to say, causing others to live in pollution against their consent, is immoral.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Depravity has an emotional component to it. Suffice to say, causing others to live in pollution against their consent, is immoral.

I'm just going with the simplest definition: "moral corruption; wickedness." We can agree with that, and I'm not really seeing a necessary emotional component to this definition. Of course, if you want to bring in some social or ethical theorist to 'add' to this, then that's fine.

On the other hand, when Christian Theologians talk about "depravity" they often mean something like: "the innate corruption of human nature, due to original sin." And on this count, that is a different thing, and it's not something that I'm in particular focusing on in this thread. What I'm getting at is that the presence of evil could be evidence for the Christian worldview rather than simply being dismissed as evidence against it.

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm just going with the simplest definition: "moral corruption; wickedness." We can agree with that, and I'm not really seeing a necessary emotional component to this definition. Of course, if you want to bring in some social or ethical theorist to 'add' to this, then that's fine.

On the other hand, when Christian Theologians talk about "depravity" they often mean something like: "the innate corruption of human nature, due to original sin." And on this count, that is a different thing, and it's not something that I'm in particularly focusing on in this thread. What I'm getting at is that the presence of evil could be evidence for the Christian worldview rather than simply being dismissed as evidence against it.

Define “evil.”

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Define “evil.”

How would you like for me to define it? Via the usual convention of a Webster's Dictionary, or with a bible? And what kind of evil since there is more than one kind?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The grand jury indictment of the churches in Pennsylvania. You haven't heard of that?

Ok, I looked up that case, and yes, I vaguely remember now having heard about it a while back, like last year or so. That's some ugly stuff and, yes, the "Church" should be routing it out, as per the instructions of Paul (and Jesus and the rest of the Apostles).

So, yeah. I 'get' what you're saying. And as I shared above with Hitch, Pascal would have agreed as well with OUR assessments here. And if Ghost Rider were a real person, so would he.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Ok, I looked up that case, and yes, I vaguely remember now having heard about it a while back, like last year or so. That's some ugly stuff and, yes, the "Church" should be routing that out, as per the instructions of Paul (and Jesus and the rest of the Apostles).

And what makes you think it will be fixed? The Pope doesn't care, provided you take Viganò at his word. I'm more inclined to do so than not, seeing as how Francis has done next to nothing to fix the church combined with the fact that Viganò has since gone into hiding and has gained nothing from his whistleblowing.

It was better late than never for Viganò but I'm sure he turned a blind eye or two. In Pennsylvania, the priests had boys wear golden crosses to indicate that they had been raped already and hence were easier targets. Some priests were collecting underwear, pubic hairs, and urine samples. One boy suffered permanent damage to his back because the priest who raped him was very heavy, and he had to be on painkillers the rest of his life (until he overdosed and died).

How's that for human depravity?

So, yeah. I 'get' what you're saying. And as I shared above with Hitch, Pascal would have agreed as well with OUR assessments here. And if Ghost Rider were a real person, so would he.

If a vigilante were to "clean house" in the hierarchy of the church, there would be nothing left when he's done.

 

[Silmarien]

The sky isn’t falling. We’re less safe now, only if you ignore the whole of history. And most atrocities committed worldwide are, by and large, under the guise of religion.

On the contrary, we’re safer than we’ve ever been, thanks to education and the rise of secularism.

Did you miss the Climate Summit from the other week? Or the ongoing threat that nuclear weapons pose now that international conflicts are being ramped up? Saying that we're safer than we've ever been is a bit of a joke when we're facing threats that are a magnitude greater than they were in the past.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And what makes you think it will be fixed? The Pope doesn't care, provided you take Viganò at his word. I'm more inclined to do so than not, seeing as how Francis has done next to nothing to fix the church combined with the fact that Viganò has since gone into hiding and has gained nothing from his whistleblowing.

It was better late than never for Viganò but I'm sure he turned a blind eye or two. In Pennsylvania, the priests had boys wear golden crosses to indicate that they had been raped already and hence were easier targets. Some priests were collecting underwear, pubic hairs, and urine samples. One boy suffered permanent damage to his back because the priest who raped him was very heavy, and he had to be on painkillers the rest of his life (until he overdosed and died).

How's that for human depravity?

All of what you've said here does provide an upsetting, even if illuminating, panoramic insight, NV, and I'm not going to treat it lightly. Yes, that is indeed a multifarious example of human depravity and being that it directly implies moral shortcomings from perpetrators who claim Christ as their Savior, it is a very sensitive and disturbing issue. The first thing that came to my mind as I read your recounting of personages and players in this sickening situation within the Catholic church was the following couple of verse, from Peter no less (who as you know is considered to be the “1st” Pope by Catholics):

1 Peter 2:15, 16
For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men—as free, yet not using your liberty as a cloak for vice [i.e. wickedness, human depravity], but as servants of God.​

In considering the above verse in relation to the huge allegations that have been recognized and lodged againt the leaders within the Catholic Church, it seems that the mode and the motivation implied in this verse may be being ignored at the present time … Why do I bring this up? I do so to affirm the importance and seriousness of your moral complaint, NV, and because it fits very well within the context of this thread. So, thank you for sharing [again, I know] your grievances about this situation, but since I'm not a Roman Catholic despite my ecumenical openness to my Catholic brethren, what do you then suggest that someone like me, or anyone else do about this issue? Surely, it wouldn't be to don our Napoleon hats and storm the doors of various church diocese and those of the Vatican, demand utter and complete justice, would it? There are these kinds of questions to consider, yet I do not pose them to diminish your obvious point(s) of grievance.

What do you suggest be done about it beyond some prayer and maybe writing one's congressman or a private letter to the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church [or even Protestant churches that may have some of the same kind of examples of human depravity running amok up and down and between the pews, so to speak]? On my part, if I could be more sure of the details of the allegations, I might be persuaded to agree that legal force and/or sanctions be placed against the Church in some effective way. But then, I'd have to ask, in Ghost Rider fashion, where should that kind of support on my part end?

If a vigilante were to "clean house" in the hierarchy of the church, there would be nothing left when he's done.

Fictionally and metaphorically speaking, I suppose to some extent this assertion of yours could be the case, but it might also depend on what kind of spiritual vigilantism one holds as an ideal, because there's quite a difference between the Punisher style vigilante on one side VERSUS either a Ghost Rider or Daredevil sort, on the other side.

Then again, setting aside what may seem to be silly comic book inferences in connection with serious ethical issues about human depravity [although anyone who's seen these superhero movies and t.v. shows would realize they're hardly trivial stories and often address very serious aspects of human depravity], I would keep in mind the kind of things that Jesus Himself has stated could be, or would be, the consequences for His own people who don't alleviate themselves of their sins, particularly those sins that evidence themselves in the fashion you're bring up here. Somewhere I think I heard an echo-----judgment begins with the House of God, a notion which should be horrible for us Christians to contemplate, whether we are Catholic or otherwise.

Any thoughts on any of this, NV? Would the Catholic Church's reception and actual application of your grievances allow you to finally place your faith back onto Jesus Christ?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

All of what you've said here does provide an upsetting, even if illuminating, panoramic insight, NV, and I'm not going to treat it lightly. Yes, that is indeed a multifarious example of human depravity and being that it directly implies moral shortcomings from perpetrators who claim Christ as their Savior, it is a very sensitive and disturbing issue. The first thing that came to my mind as I read your recounting of personages and players in this sickening situation within the Catholic church was the following couple of verse, from Peter no less (who as you know is considered to be the “1st” Pope by Catholics):

1 Peter 2:15, 16
For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men—as free, yet not using your liberty as a cloak for vice [i.e. wickedness, human depravity], but as servants of God.​

In considering the above verse in relation to the huge allegations that have been recognized and lodged againt the leaders within the Catholic Church, it seems that the mode and the motivation implied in this verse may be being ignored at the present time … Why do I bring this up? I do so to affirm the importance and seriousness of your moral complaint, NV, and because it fits very well within the context of this thread. So, thank you for sharing [again, I know] your grievances about this situation, but since I'm not a Roman Catholic despite my ecumenical openness to my Catholic brethren, what do you then suggest that someone like me, or anyone else do about this issue?

Good question. What should be done about it? Well, how would you feel if an atheist organization had been raping children for decades while covering it up with untaxed income? What would you want done in that case? I'll let your answer suffice as mine.

Surely, it wouldn't be to don our Napoleon hats and storm the doors of various church diocese and those of the Vatican, demand utter and complete justice, would it?

Why would you not demand complete justice? Why should there ever be a situation in which you don't want complete justice? If you're ever going to cut someone some slack, why do it in a case involving child rape? And if cutting the protectors of thousands of child rapists some slack doesn't turn your stomach, shouldn't you at least consider doing so only when they come clean voluntarily? A worldwide coverup of child rape is inexcusable. I don't care if priests are pedophiles in statistically ordinary numbers - the holy church covered it up for "God knows" how long. For at least decades they were happy to take your money every week and then rape your children while protecting the rapist. I'm sorry, but I cannot find it inside me to suggest that we should just let this slide. Obviously I'm in the minority for some reason because they're still raking in the cash.

There are these kinds of questions to consider, yet I do not pose them to diminish your obvious point(s) of grievance.

What do you suggest be done about it beyond some prayer and maybe writing one's congressman or a private letter to the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church [or even Protestant churches that may have some of the same kind of examples of human depravity running amok up and down and between the pews, so to speak]?

Prayer obviously won't accomplish anything. The laymen have presumably been praying for the church hierarchy to receive divine guidance for quite a while now and we can see how that has turned out. Write to the church? Lol, if there's no court summons in there then they won't even read it. Write your congressman? Ask him to do what? Simply stop attending church and financially supporting an organization that protects child rapists. Out of every dollar that's given, easily half of it is either used in settlements of child rape cases or stashed away in private accounts.

On my part, if I could be more sure of the details of the allegations, I might be persuaded to agree that legal force and/or sanctions be placed against the Church in some effective way. But then, I'd have to ask, in Ghost Rider fashion, where should that kind of support on my part end?

Where should that support end? Well, what's fair punishment for decades of child torture and cover up?

Fictionally and metaphorically speaking, I suppose to some extent this assertion of yours could be the case, but it might also depend on what kind of spiritual vigilantism one holds as an ideal, because there's quite a difference between the Punisher style vigilante on one side VERSUS either a Ghost Rider or Daredevil sort, on the other side.

Then again, setting aside what may seem to be silly comic book inferences in connection with serious ethical issues about human depravity [although anyone who's seen these superhero movies and t.v. shows would realize they're hardly trivial stories and often address very serious aspects of human depravity], I would keep in mind the kind of things that Jesus Himself has stated could be, or would be, the consequences for His own people who don't alleviate themselves of their sins, particularly those sins that evidence themselves in the fashion you're bring up here. Somewhere I think I heard an echo-----judgment begins with the House of God, a notion which should be horrible for us Christians to contemplate, whether we are Catholic or otherwise.

Any thoughts on any of this, NV? Would the Catholic Church's reception and actual application of your grievances allow you to finally place your faith back onto Jesus Christ?

Are you asking me here if my assessment of the facts would change if the Catholic Church were to voluntarily accept full responsibility for their actions? I told you already that agape love is the best "weapon" available to Christians, and of course it is the least used as well. If the evil, corrupt men atop the hierarchy gave away all their worldly possessions and lived out their lives in humble penance, as they clearly should, then it would do far more to raise the eyebrows of atheists than any flimsy argument we've seen to date.

Obviously the church is morally obligated to liquidate its assets and pour all of it out upon those that it has wronged, followed by total dissolution of its formal structure. Perhaps doing that would be quite eye-opening. If the Pope and all of the cardinals claimed that they saw the same vision of Christ and were commanded to sell all that they have and give the money away, and they obeyed this... then that would be pretty compelling. It would be strong indirect evidence.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.

On the Catholic scandal, what would the religious do if it was a non-religious movement molesting children? Well, we see it all the time, unfortunately. Schools, orphanages, swim teams, etc. No one called for the dissolution of sport organisations, or closing schools, etc. when such things occur. We expect the perpetrators to be brought to justice, and the organisation restructered with additional safeguards. I don't think this a bad model for the Catholics to adopt. After all, the Catholic Church is one of the largest educational and medical institutions on earth, so even militant secularists wouldn't want those aspects ended, though they might want them shorn of religious context.

The problem is the inability of the Catholic hierarchy to do so. They don't know who is how involved, leaving a problem not unlike chronically corrupt police forces infiltrated by mobsters. Anything to replace it, can easily either whitewash it, or become itself infiltrated. They managed it before after the Clunaic Reforms and the Counter-Reformation, so one should remain hopeful. Rushing it and witch hunting is really not helpful, no matter how much the crowds are baying for blood.

To 'pour its resources on those it wronged' as NV would want, is silly indeed and really the furthest thing from its 'moral obligation'. This assumes they can buy contrition, and is a materialist Indulgence selling, so not very moral at all. Trying to be penitent, to stop it happening again, and to aid those so wronged, sure. Liquidating assets and closing shop, means the lessons are lost. Nothing like corporate guilt to keep the course, such as Germany with Jews nowadays. You learn from error. Demanding compensation from the Church, instead of seeking truth and reconciliation, is the way to solidify enemy camps. Good examples to go by is how South Africa initially faced the Apartheid legacy; rather than large scale discriminations and trials such as Norway did to the Quisling regime.

The Catholic Church should enact a Council perhaps, and then systematically root out the problem. They should also work systematically to oppose the frequent paedophilia rearing its ugly head in the modern world, and the sexualisation of children. The model is Peter that denied Christ but spent the rest of his life furthering His Kingdom in contrition; not Judas that ended up at the end of a rope, after tossing back a few coins.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, doesn't the Bible talk a lot about human sins and how we need to inform people about their predicament without Christ before the face of Yahweh, Lord?

A person experience and knowledgeable with may tests could take samples and run tests and spend a long time talking about all that is wrong, unbalanced, missing, needed, and harmful in the body.
With the many tests available, from the results, they can easily take three hours without a break telling about the troubles (and helps?) in or with or concerning : the nervous system, the blood, the pancreas, the bones, the brain, the lungs, the skin cells, the stomach, the liver, the intestines, the gall bladder, the kidneys, the knees, the elbows, the wrists, the blood vessels, the heart, the feet, the fingers , the toes, the ears, etc etc etc etc etc ....

re "inform people" ? Will anyone hear ? Who wants to know ?

There are so many human sins in the flesh currently, an honest, informed, true teacher if permitted by Yahuweh could talk to a congregation for three months easily, simply divulging what Yahuweh Reveals day by day that must be dealt with appropriately and in timely manner .....

OR ..... Read the Bible and Talk About Yahuweh and His Son Yahushua (Jesus Messiah Savior Friend Comforter Redeemer King of the Jews) ..... ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

A person experience and knowledgeable with may tests could take samples and run tests and spend a long time talking about all that is wrong, unbalanced, missing, needed, and harmful in the body.
With the many tests available, from the results, they can easily take three hours without a break telling about the troubles (and helps?) in or with or concerning : the nervous system, the blood, the pancreas, the bones, the brain, the lungs, the skin cells, the stomach, the liver, the intestines, the gall bladder, the kidneys, the knees, the elbows, the wrists, the blood vessels, the heart, the feet, the fingers , the toes, the ears, etc etc etc etc etc ....

re "inform people" ? Will anyone hear ? Who wants to know ?

There are so many human sins in the flesh currently, an honest, informed, true teacher if permitted by Yahuweh could talk to a congregation for three months easily, simply divulging what Yahuweh Reveals day by day that must be dealt with appropriately and in timely manner .....

OR ..... Read the Bible and Talk About Yahuweh and His Son Yahushua (Jesus Messiah Savior Friend Comforter Redeemer King of the Jews) ..... ?

If we talk about Jesus, then by virtue of His identity and work we will essentially HAVE to talk about sin. To avoid that or neglect that, leave it untreated and then merely keep pointing to Jesus doesn't help folks to understand why He is the Savior and what they're being saved from. It isn't just Hell and/or Oblivion.

But that is all I'll say, since this is the Christian Apologetics forum and as Christians, we're not really supposed to get too entangled here with disagreement among ourselves on this or that issue. So, I'll just log into my mind that your evaluation is kind on the "no" side of things as a response to the OP. And that's fine if that's what you feel.

Thanks for your input, yeshuaslavejeff!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And my essential questions in this are: On behalf of the claims of Biblical Truth, the Gospel and the general purposes of Christian Apologetics, to what extent and how deeply should we explore, probe, record or discuss the either horrible public deeds or “things done in secret” by various people, perhaps even by our own selves? What good does it do to ponder the depths of human evil and sin and can doing so help to bring a person to Christ?

It IS time for JUDGMENT to BEGIN in the EKKLESIA. ('house of God')

Not to "ponder" it though, as if to dwell no it, no,

rather EXPOSE the darkness - the sin, the lies, the temptations, the corruption.

Deal with everything as Scripture Says,

in line with the Father's Guidance all the time, DOING His Word, BRINGING EVERYTHING OUT INTO THE LIGHT , as He Says.
(probably no tal la ton ce , unless He Says to)....

It can and does take days, weeks, months, years, and even decades... in His Time. Step by step IN THE LIGHT......