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Taking Questions on Embedded Age Creation

roman2819

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I don't know about the moon, but I do know about the geology of the Pacific Northwest. And it in no way is a reflection of a six day creation model nor of a global Noah flood.

God did not create in six days of 24 hours each. The word Day figurative as in first Day, second Day ... sixth Day. However, Genesis 1:14,18 said that God construct 24-hour day. The same word 'yom' is used both figuratively and literally, and the Scriptures don't explain it.

The Bible gives a brief summary of how the twenty-four hour day was created on the fourth day (or stage). “And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years" [Genesis 1:14]. This is the construction of day, night and years – which are based on the twenty-four hour timeframe we live in.

The Creator made a greater light (the sun), the lesser light (the moon) and the stars, then “set them (the sun, moon and stars) in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness” [Genesis 1:18]. For the first time in the creation process, the sun, moon and stars were used to create day and night as we know it; and this is different from the first day of creation, when God used the word day (to denote light) and night (to denote darkness). Observe how the same word, day, is used both figuratively and literally, and in different ways – similar to how the term, God's will, refers to a deliberate plan, permissive will or His will for our way of life. It demonstrates the point: Don’t read words only, understand the context.

The word Day as in first Day, second Day ... until sixth Day is figurative, it implies a stage, a phase, a timeframe. The creation took place in organized stages. At the first phase, light was created, followed by the sky, then the land and sea. Later, in distinct stages, God created the stars, vegetation, flying creatures, sea habitants, and finally, land animals, followed by man and woman. He did not create randomly, so to speak: He did not make the stars, then the land, some living creatures, and then create more stars again; instead, He proceeded in an orderly way.

Why did the Bible use the word Day instead of stage or phase? The word Day fits the prose of writing in religious scriptures. For different subjects, be it engineering, human literature, fiction, magazines or newspapers, there are different ways of writing. Chemistry books are written in a factual way, while consumer magazines use words to capture our interests and promote sales. In Chinese culture, the word day can refer to a physical day of twenty-four hours, to heaven or the deities that dwell in heaven -- and this is not a unique view; it is not unusual for earthly beings to look at the sky and moon, and wonder if there are gods that live far beyond the stars. In the Bible, in the context of creation, day alludes to a passage of time.

In the first chapter of Genesis, at the end of each Day, the Bible said, “There was evening and there was morning.” However, if the sun and moon were created on the fourth day, how did evenings and mornings happen during the first three days? As well, notice the order: It was not morning, then evening. Instead, it was the reverse: Evening first, followed by morning. I believe that evening means the end of a stage, not sunset. And morning means the beginning of another phase, not sunrise. As well, it does not mean that the amount of time for each day was the same. To gather the land into one place would take much less time than to create the thousand kinds of sea creatures.

Moses said to the people, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them” [Exodus 20:11]. But back then, could they have known that, in the context of creation, the word ‘day’ was figurative? Indeed, I believe that Moses would be amused at the thought of how thousands of kinds of living things – falcons, kingfishers, leopards, giraffe, hens, worms, ants, ant-eaters, cats and so on – would materialize suddenly in seventy-two hours, as if God had used CGI (computer graphics interface). Why would He rush to create at such a superfast pace? Instead, I believe the Lord planned out the ecology, constructed the atmosphere and elements, then the landscape and fauna. With these structures in place, He placed the sun and moon in place so the earth has day and night, then proceeded to design and make the lifeforms in the sea and on land. Likewise, for people that like to work on jigsaw puzzles, do they buy an already assembled product or do they enjoy connecting the pieces?

Excerpt from 'Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's Will' by Roman Ri
 
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AV1611VET

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Despite what some modern Traditional Christians may think today, this doesn't explain why the earliest Christians were willing to die for Christ if they didn't really understand what it was they were to die for at the hands of the Romans.

Let's take this a step further.

Why would they die for what they wrote, if what they knew what they were writing was a lie?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Let's take this a step further.

Why would they die for what they wrote, if what they knew what they were writing was a lie?

Yep. I agree. ... they wouldn't die for that either.
 
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AV1611VET

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Yep. I agree. ... they wouldn't die for that either.

Luke and Peter were pretty blunt about saying they wrote as eyewitnesses.

Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
 
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Aaron112

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Let's take this a step further.

Why would they die for what they wrote, if what they knew what they were writing was a lie?
And one more step: billios of people die not knowing they believed lies all their lives, and by their own choice(s) ended up not ever learning the truth (about medicine, government, salvation, almost anything /everything) ... thus dying empty, in vain, grievous deaths even bringing God Sorrow.
 
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BCP1928

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Luke and Peter were pretty blunt about saying they wrote as eyewitnesses.

Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
In other words, he was recording the statements of eyewitnesses, but was not one himself.
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Where is your theory of the Atonement in that?
 
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AV1611VET

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And one more step: billios of people die not knowing they believed lies all their lives, and by their own choice(s) ended up not ever learning the truth (about medicine, government, salvation, almost anything /everything) ... thus dying empty, in vain, grievous deaths even bringing God Sorrow.

Dying for something you read and believed is one thing.

Dying for having written it is another; especially if you knew what you wrote was fiction.
 
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AV1611VET

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In other words, he was recording the statements of eyewitnesses, but was not one himself.

Um ...

2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

Where is your theory of the Atonement in that?

Huh?
 
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BCP1928

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Despite what some modern Traditional Christians may think today, this doesn't explain why the earliest Christians were willing to die for Christ if they didn't really understand what it was they were to die for at the hands of the Romans.

All Traditional Christians, I believe, for many centuries. Your theory was invented by Calvin.
 
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AV1611VET

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What "lie" are you talking about?

Let's take a made-up example:

Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

Nero: Either you retract that, or I'll slit your throat.
Matthew: Get to it.
 
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BCP1928

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Dying for something you read and believed is one thing.

Dying for having written it is another; especially if you knew what you wrote was fiction.
How would they know it was fiction? I suppose you mean the creedal statement in Corinthians. Don't you think Paul believed what he wrote?
 
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AveChristusRex

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And a real creationist would disregard scientists and go about their life on their own instead of trying to disprove evolution.
In that case, "science can take a hike"
 
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AV1611VET

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How would they know it was fiction?

They who?

Matthew writes [A], claiming to be an eyewitness.
Matthew is told to recant of [A], under penalty of death.
Matthew refuses to recant, and he dies for it.

This isn't rocket science here.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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All Traditional Christians, I believe, for many centuries. Your theory was invented by Calvin.

I don't care what Calvin thought or if he is the first to be cited for having articulated the argument, however minimal it may be.
 
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AV1611VET

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A few people have a lie detector.

Almost no one here, anywhere, on earth, has one.

Just FYI, read Numbers 5 and tell me if you see a lie detector in it.
 
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Fervent

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You'll have to tell me.

You are the one who said that Jesus having followers who were willing to die for their beleifs was important.
You misunderstand my point, which is explaining the origins. Islam's origins are easily explainable because Muhammad was a highly successful military leader that "converted" people at the tip of the sword.
I'm just pointing out that Islam has the same thing, when you specifically left out that fact and said that Islam spread through nothing but violence, presenting the impression that all Muslims were forced into it.
You're just missing the actual point of what I've said, which is not simply that followers were willing to die but that the rise of the belief requires explanation.
Careful, your bias is showing.
Nah, more like yours since you completely misunderstand the point by bringing up an irrelevant detail.
 
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Fervent

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The trouble is, you have touched on a very sensitive point for fundamentalists, and it's not about the existence of God or the truth of the resurrection. There is no clear reason to suppose that the companions of Christ understood, in the immediate aftermath of what they took to be the resurrection, what it all meant theologically. Even the first recorded statement of what became known as the Atonement may not have been formulated until it appeared in Paul's epistle 30 years later. And that only weakly supports the specific theory of the Atonement being pushed by today's fundamentalists as essential to the faith, which in any case is not quite the same as that attributed by many scholars to the early church. As late as the third century Augustine was still struggling to give Apostolic authority to the doctrine of Original Sin on which it depends. You can be sure that if the least scrap of evidence of the kind you are asking for existed anywhere it would be speedily produced.
If I understand you correctly, this is pretty much my view as well.
No clear reason? Even if it's historically of secondary nature, there is reason enough to think many early disciples of Jesus understood the essentials of "what it all meant theologically," BCP.

Let's not undersell what more than likely can be reasonably surmised.
Let's not oversell it, either. Christians have been unpacking the significance of the resurrection since it happened. They likely understood some basic issues, but it took Paul's theological training to put together some more of the nitty gritty.
All Traditional Christians, I believe, for many centuries. Your theory was invented by Calvin.
The rudimentary elements of sola scriptura were sewed with the Antiochan method of exegesis. And it was fully fleshed out with Jan Hus a century before Calvin came on the scene.
 
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