Taking Questions on Embedded Age Creation

[River Jordan]

Are you suggesting the Bible is presenting a mountain moving from one place to yonder place as a result of prayer is a NATURAL phenomenon?

I don't know if you're doing this on purpose, but I pointed out in my last post to you how that isn't a test of the supernatural, and you replied by noting it was a test of the claim in the Bible. And now you're back to saying it's a test of the supernatural.

I'm not really interested in going in circles. If you still think what you described is a test of the supernatural and God, then go back to my previous post to you and address my points about that.

 

[Kylie]

None on the supernatural

Science can do tests on ANYTHING testable.

There is nothing which would eliminate the supernatural from this.

It's not science's fault that those who promote the supernatural go out of their way to leave it unfalsifiable.

Ditto

Is that all you've got?

My daughter was able to have more useful discussions by the time she was three.

Look at it this way maybe, say believers are not the salt of the earth. So let's say if we have faith, that it is at a salt grain level. Some folks still are way down in the molecule level. Others might be a pretty big grain of salt. Alas none that we know about have reached the seed level yet. We're getting there

That doisn't answer my question.

Faith units?

And how much faith is a faith unit worth? How do you measure them?

Do people talk like this in church? "Ah yes, poor Estell is in hospital again, and we're praying for her to get better, but we need 200 faith units worth of prayers before God will do something. So get all your friends to pray as well, and I'm sure we can get enough faith units to really help her out!"

How many faith units do you have? And how many faith units are required to be the equivalent of a mustard seed?

If we say our love is as tall as a mountain that usually means we have a lot of love. So it seems the comparison relates to size. We don't need much faith to do amazing things. However most people hardly have any faith, just a little bit, way less than seed level generally.

So it's all metaphorical?

Scripture does tell us the past and future. I have heard it said that in the coming life, we will be able to go back and visit any point in history to see what actually happened as an invisible observer. Who knows? I don't see why not.

The claims made in the Bible are not evidence to support the claims made in the Bible.

No one I know of. I wonder how much faith Moses and Elijah had when the visited Jesus on the mount of transfiguration? On earth they both already had great faith to do astounding miracles like part the sea and stop the rain. Imagine how much their faith grew in the 1000 years or whatever it was since they had died and went to heaven!

Sounds to me like you are just making things about about faith amounts.

No. I am saying that it seems that the general level of faith for many believers is not yet up the the seed level. But hey, if Moses parted the sea, and brought water from a rock, and brought the plagues of Egypt down etc and other people in history also did great things, maybe some folks were already pretty close to seed level!

And how many faith units are required to get to the seed level? Show your working.

We not only could, but will one day. So partly it is something encouraging to look forward to

So why don't we have it now? And how does it increase? Do you somehow expect people will gain the faith that their forebears had? The faith is somehow inherited or something?

Nothing like that.

Yes. Exactly like that.

We will move faster than light speed one day. Philip in the bible was teleported instantly across a huge lake. That is faster than light already!

Yes, I'm sure the people living back in Biblical times were able to accurately measure the speed of light...

Now you know

I've never seen anything remotely resembling knowledge come from your posts.

 

[Kylie]

Yes. In the old testament and several times in the new. All you have is a claim they were not

And Spock was raised from the dead in Star Trek 3.

All you have is a claim that it happened. You have no way to actually verify that claim. All you can do is believe without evidence that the claim is correct.

The bible prophesies are history now for the most part, and it's accuracy tested over millennia. Hundreds of witnesses saw Jesus risen from the dead. Nothing like some empty claim you make

What were their names? Where are their accounts?

Or do you just have a CLAIM that hundreds of witnesses saw Jesus risen from the dead, a claim which can not be verified?

 

[Kylie]

Huh? What gift are you talking about?

A little thing called SALVATION, perhaps you've heard of it? Apparently it's good news.

 

[Kylie]

OK since you asked
My immediate response was Yes
I thought about my reasons for that immediate response. Checking the validity of the source material, so to speak
And the answer is still Yes.

Okay.

If you believe that you have enough faith that you can pray for a mountain to move from one place to yonder place as stated in Matthew 21:21 and Mark 11:23 Matthew 17:20, would you care to put it to the test?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Okay.

If you believe that you have enough faith that you can pray for a mountain to move from one place to yonder place as stated in Matthew 21:21 and Mark 11:23 Matthew 17:20, would you care to put it to the test?

Ok, Kylie. You win! We all know that no mountains move with prayer. Now what would you like for us to do?

 

[QvQ]

Or do you just have a CLAIM that hundreds of witnesses saw Jesus risen from the dead, a claim which can not be verified?

Historically
Back in the Olden Days, oral history was the only record and was amazingly accurate.
Now, my aunt can relate what happened to her grandparents and her parents and herself with accuracy
The range of that accurate primary witness oral history is considered to be 150 year +/-

The first Gospels were written 40-65 years after the Resurrection.
Those are Eye Witness accounts.
The Resurrection is a historical fact. There are many maybe this and maybe that to account for it. "Maybe he wasn't really dead" or Maybe he had a twin or Maybe, maybe maybe...
But the fact remains Jesus died on the Cross and was Resurrected.
It is a historical fact

For a reference: The OK Corral Gunfight happened in 1881. Wyatt Earp was a principle and witness. Wyatt died in 1929.
That is a living principle witness to an historical event within a 48 year time frame. Anyone want to dispute the OK Corral as a "maybe it didn't happen" or "maybe it was mass delusion" or "maybe it was just made up?"
Historians accept oral and written testimony of principles and other primary witnesses as fact.

 

[QvQ]

If you believe that you have enough faith that you can pray for a mountain to move from one place to yonder place as stated in Matthew 21:21 and Mark 11:23 Matthew 17:20, would you care to put it to the test?

Why?
I don't have the slightest interest in moving mountains.
If you want to test it, Pray to God.
Matthew 7: 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
God is the power regardless of who does the asking.
So go to the source
Ask God

 

[Hans Blaster]

Why?
I don't have the slightest interest in moving mountains. God moves them around all the time but that is God's Will.
If you want to test it, do as I told @Hans Blaster. Pray to God.
God is the power even if I pray and ask.
So go to the source
Ask God

Don't you guys claim that faith is needed for prayer to work. I have none, so even by your logic it wouldn't work. I suspect it would be same for Kylie. (I also have no desire to waste my time on praying.)

 

[truthpls]

Science can do tests on ANYTHING testable.

So only the natural. We know

There is nothing which would eliminate the supernatural from this.

Except they cannot see it of detect it

It's not science's fault that those who promote the supernatural go out of their way to leave it unfalsifiable.

Nor that they are weak and small and limited to the natural

And how much faith is a faith unit worth? How do you measure them?

God knows. One way I would measure if a believer has great faith would be if they are faithful

Do people talk like this in church? "Ah yes, poor Estell is in hospital again, and we're praying for her to get better, but we need 200 faith units worth of prayers before God will do something. So get all your friends to pray as well, and I'm sure we can get enough faith units to really help her out!"

No, we have a phrase that covers it all. Thy will be done. Either way

How many faith units do you have? And how many faith units are required to be the equivalent of a mustard seed?

Who knows? Not science obviously

So it's all metaphorical?

The claims made in the Bible are not evidence to support the claims made in the Bible.

The pointing out that if we had faith we could do great things is a promise and motivator. Anyone want more faith? Just read the bible, faith comes by doing that.

Sounds to me like you are just making things about about faith amounts.

No we know that the amount needed to move a mountain is a seed of faith. That amount.

And how many faith units are required to get to the seed level? Show your working.

We'll find out one day. Relax. Meanwhile, Jesus says, according to our faith be it done unto us.

So why don't we have it now? And how does it increase? Do you somehow expect people will gain the faith that their forebears had? The faith is somehow inherited or something?

As pointed out above, faith comes by hearing Hos word

Yes, I'm sure the people living back in Biblical times were able to accurately measure the speed of light...

No. But some exceeded it!

I've never seen anything remotely resembling knowledge come from your posts.

Correction. You have not been able to recognize knowledge.

 

[truthpls]

And Spock was raised from the dead in Star Trek 3.

With scores of witnesses that he was just an actor and not really dead. Better to get real

All you have is a claim that it happened. You have no way to actually verify that claim. All you can do is believe without evidence that the claim is correct.

My peeps knew

What were their names? Where are their accounts?

Over five hundred witnesses mentioned in the bible. Some of the names we know.

Or do you just have a CLAIM that hundreds of witnesses saw Jesus risen from the dead, a claim which can not be verified?

We have the record and we know that record is true.

 

[QvQ]

Don't you guys claim that faith is needed for prayer to work. I have none, so even by your logic it wouldn't work. I suspect it would be same for Kylie. (I also have no desire to waste my time on praying.)

I didn't have any "faith" usually defined as "belief" when first I prayed.
I didn't even believe in God
I had an open mind and a curiosity.
I thought it was a interesting experiment of no great political or social import.
But I can't test it for you.
You can only test it for yourself

 

[Kylie]

Ok, Kylie. You win! We all know that no mountains move with prayer. Now what would you like for us to do?

So then we can not take the entire Bible as literal, can we?

So, how do we tell which parts are literally true and which parts are not?

What test can I perform to make a determination?

 

[Kylie]

Historically
Back in the Olden Days, oral history was the only record and was amazingly accurate.

If it was the only record, how do you determine if it is accurate? If it's the only record, there are no other records to check against, are there?

The first Gospels were written 40-65 years after the Resurrection.

Why so long?

Those are Eye Witness accounts.

No they aren't. We don't know who wrote the Gospels. Just because tradition attributes them to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John doesn't mean those are the actually people who really wrote them.

The Resurrection is a historical fact. There are many maybe this and maybe that to account for it. "Maybe he wasn't really dead" or Maybe he had a twin or Maybe, maybe maybe...
But the fact remains Jesus died on the Cross and was Resurrected.
It is a historical fact

And how has this been verified?

For a reference: The OK Corral Gunfight happened in 1881. Wyatt Earp was a principle and witness. Wyatt died in 1929.
That is a living principle witness to an historical event within a 48 year time frame. Anyone want to dispute the OK Corral as a "maybe it didn't happen" or "maybe it was mass delusion" or "maybe it was just made up?"

If there were no records for the gunfight until 40-65 years later, and those records were written by unknown authors and the different accounts contradicted each other, I wouldn't take them seriously.

Would you?

Historians accept oral and written testimony of principles and other primary witnesses as fact.

So why is it that despite there being historians writing during the time Jesus allegedly lived, not one of them wrote about Jesus?

 

[Kylie]

Why?
I don't have the slightest interest in moving mountains.

Of course.

Every time I ask a believer to put their money where their mouth is, they always make excuses to get out of it.

I'm told, "But you can't test God." "God doesn't work like that." I don't feel like it." "You would accept it even if it happened."

If you want to test it, Pray to God.

But I am an atheist. I have zero faith in God.

Matthew 7: 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
God is the power regardless of who does the asking.
So go to the source
Ask God

Ah, so you;re telling me that if I actually pray, even without any belief, it will work?

Despite the fact that the Bible says that a non-zero amount of faith is required?

Or do I have to actually believe? How do I get that belief? I can't just choose to believe, anymore than you can choose to believe you are living on Mars.

 

[Kylie]

So only the natural. We know

You seem unable to see that "testable" is not the same thing as "natural."

Except they cannot see it of detect it

Why can't they see it? Is there like some invisibility screen?

Nor that they are weak and small and limited to the natural

Again, they are not limited to the natural.

I have explained this to you many times, I can only conclude that you are being deliberately false now.

God knows. One way I would measure if a believer has great faith would be if they are faithful

This doesn't come close to answering my question.

No, we have a phrase that covers it all. Thy will be done. Either way

This doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

Who knows? Not science obviously

Nor you, though I suspect you're just making all this "how much faith is equivalent to a mustard seed" stuff up as you go.

The pointing out that if we had faith we could do great things is a promise and motivator. Anyone want more faith? Just read the bible, faith comes by doing that.

I have read it. Still an atheist.

No we know that the amount needed to move a mountain is a seed of faith. That amount.

And how many faith units is that? Give me a number.

We'll find out one day. Relax. Meanwhile, Jesus says, according to our faith be it done unto us.\

You're going out of your way to be vague about this stuff. It's almost like you don't actually know, and you can only repeat things that sound like they might be tangentially related.

As pointed out above, faith comes by hearing Hos word

So why don't you get a thousand Bibles on audiobook playing, listen to them all at once, and your faith levels should skyrocket.

No. But some exceeded it!

No they didn't.

Correction. You have not been able to recognize knowledge.

Perhaps one day you can stop responding like a three year old.

 

[Kylie]

With scores of witnesses that he was just an actor and not really dead. Better to get real

Is James Kirk and actor? Leonard McCoy an actor? I don't think so?

My peeps knew

"Your peeps."

Honestly, thanks for the laugh.

Over five hundred witnesses mentioned in the bible. Some of the names we know.

So what?

What were their names? Can you show another source that speaks of these people?

We have the record and we know that record is true.

Nah, you just believe it to be true. Belief doesn't make fact.

 

[AV1611VET]

And I dealt with that here: 1864.

Or did you just ignore that?

I ignored it.

You're suggesting God displace a whole network of people and personnel, living and working on a mountain, for the sake of science.

That is the near EPITOME of scientific thoughtlessness.

 

[QvQ]

And how has this been verified?

You need to do your own research.
It has generally been accepted as historical fact.
In this you are beating a dead horse as all of the arguments you cite against the historical record and accuracy have been thoroughly examined by historians for centuries.
The Biblical Account remains historical fact, even through centuries of attempts to discredit it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Every time I ask a believer to put their money where their mouth is, they always make excuses to get out of it.

I'm told, "But you can't test God." "God doesn't work like that." I don't feel like it." "You would accept it even if it happened."

Maybe you need a course in Dispensation 101?

Why did Paul, who at one point could heal the sick and raise the dead, have to leave a friend behind sick?

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

If you know the answer to this, it'll help you understand the first century AD a lot better.