Taking questions of the Different state past (2)

[PsychoSarah]

Yes I do, but not unrestricted. Man will not be allowed to destroy the planet and all life.

They got where they are by giving in to evil too much I would suspect. Every man is a potential murderer, in fact if we hate our brother we are a murderer, even if the deed is not carried out.

Good for you. Far as I know, He heard the first time though. Might want to include other stuff in the chat times with Him.


Good for you. I think you are on the right track. Relax though, belief may not come as fast and large to us as you may have thought. Reading or hearing the word of God causes faith to grow. I guess there is a time before it grows when it may be too small to see

Lu 13:19 -It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.


Mr 9:24 - And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.


Apparently not. But the funny thing is, that for me to be shown wrong, and probably a lot of other folks, it can take considerable time. I tend to cling to my notions to the bitter end. Like the same state past, which I think is a right notion...good luck getting me to dump that


Mt 7:7 -Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Mt 7:8 -For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.



Mt 18:3 -And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He heard.

The problem with teaching kids fables as truth is that they lose ability to some degree to differentiate truth from fable. I could see also how someone getting saved that comes from a totally atheist background might take awhile longer to grow in faith.

Illogical, we have already made enough atomic weapons to blow ourselves up out of existence. Technically, the first ones could go off in error, which would lead to a domino effect of everyone setting the rest off out of panic, depending on the initial "target".

I suppose though it would depend on where you divide hate from less strong negative emotions, such as dislike. However, I personally view a person who is filled with hate who restrains themselves from acting on it as stronger in spirit than someone who never feels that emotion at all.

I am sure that all deities have had their fill of selfish prayers; I'd rather just to continue with my relatively meek request. I prayed for enough selfish things as a little kid.

Ha, Oh really? Belief doesn't come fast for all of people? Who knew

*sigh* I have told you, my disagreeing with you on the matter of a different state past is not related to any beliefs. Many Christians disagree with you on that, not just atheists. I can use both observations and the bible to poke holes in that idea, and if I was a Christian, I might even view it as sacrilegious to suggest god would have to make such great changes to the universe just for Adam and Eve to fall.

It must suck to constantly hear all the people praying to you in the world (referring to what the Christian god is stated to experience). Omniscience has its negative aspects I suppose.

This final statement here actually has a degree of fact to it; studies have shown that this does make it harder for kids to distinguish truth from myth. However, any religious upbringing does the same thing (so a kid brought up as a Christian is more likely to buy in to the Tooth Fairy than a kid brought up in a more secular situation, not because Christians teach kids these tales more, which they don't, but because you already got the kids to believe in magic, etc.).

I wouldn't say I had a particularly atheist upbringing. Religion just was never really discussed. In fact, as a kid I was the one to bring the subject up (asking questions about where god lives, etc) as a result of overhearing people talk about faith on TV and such. When I heard god was everywhere, but didn't make itself visible, I tried to, of all things, trick it into letting me see by walking out of rooms and then suddenly turning, hoping, of all things, to catch a glimpse before god became invisible again (child logic is funny in hindsight).

However, it is rather interesting to note that I am a 5th generation atheist on my mother's side, although she recently changed her belief status from agnostic theist to gnostic theist.

 

[dad]

Illogical, we have already made enough atomic weapons to blow ourselves up out of existence. Technically, the first ones could go off in error, which would lead to a domino effect of everyone setting the rest off out of panic, depending on the initial "target".

I suppose though it would depend on where you divide hate from less strong negative emotions, such as dislike. However, I personally view a person who is filled with hate who restrains themselves from acting on it as stronger in spirit than someone who never feels that emotion at all.

I disagree. God will not allow total destruction by man of life and the planet. When it comes, it will be because of a judgment from God on evil men. The good news is that He will restore this world, and even make a new one after 1000 years. Man thinks he is the cat's meow, but is actually more like the dust in the weigh scales.

I am sure that all deities have had their fill of selfish prayers; I'd rather just to continue with my relatively meek request. I prayed for enough selfish things as a little kid.

OK. But I notice Jesus prayed for those that would believe in Him not just Himself. Daniel prayed for others...etc etc.

Ha, Oh really? Belief doesn't come fast for all of people? Who knew

It takes all kinds I guess.

*sigh* I have told you, my disagreeing with you on the matter of a different state past is not related to any beliefs. Many Christians disagree with you on that, not just atheists.

None are here making a case--notice? I wonder why? I can tell you, it is because I am standing on very very very solid ground.

I can use both observations and the bible to poke holes in that idea, and if I was a Christian, I might even view it as sacrilegious to suggest god would have to make such great changes to the universe just for Adam and Eve to fall.

You would be corrected if you posted as a Christian such views in a thread I post in.

It must suck to constantly hear all the people praying to you in the world (referring to what the Christian god is stated to experience). Omniscience has its negative aspects I suppose.

I guess He can handle it, maybe filters out the more fragrant ones.

This final statement here actually has a degree of fact to it; studies have shown that this does make it harder for kids to distinguish truth from myth. However, any religious upbringing does the same thing (so a kid brought up as a Christian is more likely to buy in to the Tooth Fairy than a kid brought up in a more secular situation, not because Christians teach kids these tales more, which they don't, but because you already got the kids to believe in magic, etc.).

God made kids that way, and gave us a sacred duty to teach them right.

I wouldn't say I had a particularly atheist upbringing. Religion just was never really discussed. In fact, as a kid I was the one to bring the subject up (asking questions about where god lives, etc) as a result of overhearing people talk about faith on TV and such. When I heard god was everywhere, but didn't make itself visible, I tried to, of all things, trick it into letting me see by walking out of rooms and then suddenly turning, hoping, of all things, to catch a glimpse before god became invisible again (child logic is funny in hindsight).

However, it is rather interesting to note that I am a 5th generation atheist on my mother's side, although she recently changed her belief status from agnostic theist to gnostic theist.

That makes it a challenge for God to sneak the truth in I guess. But nothing is impossible with God.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I disagree. God will not allow total destruction by man of life and the planet. When it comes, it will be because of a judgment from God on evil men. The good news is that He will restore this world, and even make a new one after 1000 years. Man thinks he is the cat's meow, but is actually more like the dust in the weigh scales.

OK. But I notice Jesus prayed for those that would believe in Him not just Himself. Daniel prayed for others...etc etc.

It takes all kinds I guess.
None are here making a case--notice? I wonder why? I can tell you, it is because I am standing on very very very solid ground.



You would be corrected if you posted as a Christian such views in a thread I post in.



I guess He can handle it, maybe filters out the more fragrant ones.

God made kids that way, and gave us a sacred duty to teach them right.







That makes it a challenge for God to sneak the truth in I guess. But nothing is impossible with God.

Won't the antichrist take the form of a human though? So would that not be total destruction at the hands of a "human"?

I tend not to pray for others in favor of taking action myself. Why ask god to do what I myself am capable of? And as far as preventing death goes, should I honestly pray that someone be delayed paradise? Besides, people learn more from their mistakes than their successes, I view an amount of misfortune as necessary to enjoy the good things in life. Which is part of the reason I find the Christian ideal of paradise... kinda eerie. Would I gladly accept that afterlife over my current belief of total nonexistence? Yes, yes, absolutely yes, if I could truly just force myself to believe I would become a nonstop happy worship zombie over cease entirely I would. Would I consider that sort of existence actually to be paradise? Nope.

People tend not to bother criticizing the arguments of those that share their overall same opinion, although I could have sworn some of the people who do criticize you are Christian. Maybe not the same denomination as you, but I don't think it has only been atheists and agnostics who have debated you.

I have no doubt we would discuss it, but considering how hypothetical this is I would rather not get distracted overmuch by it.

"Fragrant", ha, I guess that is one way of putting it. Can you believe some tool a few months ago tried to convince me that god answered his prayers that certain individuals die? I told him that if god was so willing to be brutal for him, that he should easily be able to ask god what my middle name was and get an answer no problem. Never heard from him again, gosh, I hate it when scam artists decide to flee before I thouroughly debunk them. Cowards. They do not help with my faith issues. But I guess at least I prevent them from getting to anyone dumb enough to fall for their lies.

There is definitely some biological component to why kids easily pick up on belief. But not all kids do, a small percentage, but a large enough percentage to be notable, do not. I guess I must have fallen into that category. I don't recall any bible verse that states kids were made to be that way, so unless you provide one, just because the bible doesn't say god did not do something doesn't mean god did with any direct purpose.

Man, never being challenged by anything ever, never learning anything new; god's existence must just be so boring and empty. If said being exists, I would half think it created life just to have something to do.

 

[dad]

Won't the antichrist take the form of a human though? So would that not be total destruction at the hands of a "human"?

No. The leader will be human, but also powered by Satan. However it will not be him that destroys earth. When Jesus returns, there will still be an earth and people.

I tend not to pray for others in favor of taking action myself. Why ask god to do what I myself am capable of?

You are not capable of all that much. Better to get the help of One who is able.

And as far as preventing death goes, should I honestly pray that someone be delayed paradise?

Maybe we should pray more like Jesus said..'thy will be done'.

Besides, people learn more from their mistakes than their successes, I view an amount of misfortune as necessary to enjoy the good things in life. Which is part of the reason I find the Christian ideal of paradise... kinda eerie. Would I gladly accept that afterlife over my current belief of total nonexistence? Yes, yes, absolutely yes, if I could truly just force myself to believe I would become a nonstop happy worship zombie over cease entirely I would. Would I consider that sort of existence actually to be paradise? Nope.

I have no intention of becoming anything like that.

People tend not to bother criticizing the arguments of those that share their overall same opinion, although I could have sworn some of the people who do criticize you are Christian.

I care not about criticism of those who don't actually believe the bible, regardless of what they may like to call themselves. Of those that actually believe in a real flood and creation etc...I do not see any real issues.

Maybe not the same denomination as you, but I don't think it has only been atheists and agnostics who have debated you.

I look at it more like those that believe in Jesus and His word and Him as a creator.....and those who do not.

"Fragrant", ha, I guess that is one way of putting it. Can you believe some tool a few months ago tried to convince me that god answered his prayers that certain individuals die? I told him that if god was so willing to be brutal for him, that he should easily be able to ask god what my middle name was and get an answer no problem. Never heard from him again, gosh, I hate it when scam artists decide to flee before I thouroughly debunk them. Cowards. They do not help with my faith issues. But I guess at least I prevent them from getting to anyone dumb enough to fall for their lies.

David did pray against his enemies, and asked for God's help. Moses did see God destroy his enemies also..etc. I am wary of folks who think that they should be killing others by prayers though generally

There is definitely some biological component to why kids easily pick up on belief. But not all kids do, a small percentage, but a large enough percentage to be notable, do not. I guess I must have fallen into that category. I don't recall any bible verse that states kids were made to be that way, so unless you provide one, just because the bible doesn't say god did not do something doesn't mean god did with any direct purpose.

Since you were not taught the word and faith etc...I am not sure how you think you were supposed to 'pick up on faith'?

Man, never being challenged by anything ever, never learning anything new; god's existence must just be so boring and empty. If said being exists, I would half think it created life just to have something to do.

That is above my paygrade to answer.

 

[PsychoSarah]

No. The leader will be human, but also powered by Satan. However it will not be him that destroys earth. When Jesus returns, there will still be an earth and people.

You are not capable of all that much. Better to get the help of One who is able.

Maybe we should pray more like Jesus said..'thy will be done'.

I have no intention of becoming anything like that.

I care not about criticism of those who don't actually believe the bible, regardless of what they may like to call themselves. Of those that actually believe in a real flood and creation etc...I do not see any real issues.


I look at it more like those that believe in Jesus and His word and Him as a creator.....and those who do not.


David did pray against his enemies, and asked for God's help. Moses did see God destroy his enemies also..etc. I am wary of folks who think that they should be killing others by prayers though generally

Since you were not taught the word and faith etc...I am not sure how you think you were supposed to 'pick up on faith'?

That is above my paygrade to answer.

Pretty sure if the antichrist didn't appear, the events that would lead to the world ending as described in the bible wouldn't still occur, but whatever, we are getting quite distracted.

Well if I had that sort of attitude about it I surely wouldn't accomplish much. Regardless, I feel better taking action myself than asking anything to do so for me. And I don't see much point in praying for the will of a supposed omnipotent being to be done; if it is that being's will, it would be done.

You intention doesn't matter, what little is said of heaven in the bible pretty much puts you at an eternity of nonstop worship, stripped of all negatively associated emotions. It is still rather ambiguous beyond that.

Well obviously if you refuse to consider those who disagree with you Christian you aren't going to debate with anyone you would perceive as such. Personally, I just go with the labels people give themselves, it isn't my place to judge that sort of thing, and it really isn't yours either.

Pretty sure New Testament revises that sort of thing as a no no, but I could be wrong, I forget stuff.

Good point to bring up to god should you ever meet up; kinda makes sending people to hell on the basis of belief unreasonable (not that it would have been particularly reasonable even if everyone since the beginning of time had early exposure to Christian doctrine, but that people died never hearing it and would get sent to hell for not believing in the deity they never heard of is absolutely atrocious).

No shame in admitting you don't have an answer or just don't feel confident in it.

 

[dad]

Pretty sure if the antichrist didn't appear, the events that would lead to the world ending as described in the bible wouldn't still occur, but whatever, we are getting quite distracted.

God apparently wants to allow the harvest of the earth to be ripe...people to chose what side they want to be on. It isn't like the AC appears without God's permission!!

Well if I had that sort of attitude about it I surely wouldn't accomplish much. Regardless, I feel better taking action myself than asking anything to do so for me.

Problem is you can't bring world peace, give eternal life, or heal all diseases and wipe all sad tears away, and restore all life to the created lovely state it was meant to be etc. Man cannot save himself we need God.

And I don't see much point in praying for the will of a supposed omnipotent being to be done; if it is that being's will, it would be done.

To pray it will be done shows that our heart is right, and we want the love of God to rule.

You intention doesn't matter, what little is said of heaven in the bible pretty much puts you at an eternity of nonstop worship, stripped of all negatively associated emotions. It is still rather ambiguous beyond that.

I disagree. Of course I willl be grateful, and happy, but not some idiot worship zombie. I think many churches are out to lunch on that one. I am what I am and it is I that Jesus saved. Otherwise I never would have allowed Him to save me.

Well obviously if you refuse to consider those who disagree with you Christian you aren't going to debate with anyone you would perceive as such. Personally, I just go with the labels people give themselves, it isn't my place to judge that sort of thing, and it really isn't yours either.

If folks disbelieve Jesus and Scripture they cannot really debate, just occupy time wasting blabber time.

Pretty sure New Testament revises that sort of thing as a no no, but I could be wrong, I forget stuff.

You are wrong. Believing Scripture is cool. Creation is not negotiable.

Good point to bring up to god should you ever meet up; kinda makes sending people to hell on the basis of belief unreasonable (not that it would have been particularly reasonable even if everyone since the beginning of time had early exposure to Christian doctrine, but that people died never hearing it and would get sent to hell for not believing in the deity they never heard of is absolutely atrocious).

I think that folks that go to hell chose to. We have the choice. Some people would be miserable in heaven.

 

[PsychoSarah]

God apparently wants to allow the harvest of the earth to be ripe...people to chose what side they want to be on. It isn't like the AC appears without God's permission!!

Problem is you can't bring world peace, give eternal life, or heal all diseases and wipe all sad tears away, and restore all life to the created lovely state it was meant to be etc. Man cannot save himself we need God.

To pray it will be done shows that our heart is right, and we want the love of God to rule. I disagree. Of course I willl be grateful, and happy, but not some idiot worship zombie. I think many churches are out to lunch on that one. I am what I am and it is I that Jesus saved. Otherwise I never would have allowed Him to save me.

If folks disbelieve Jesus and Scripture they cannot really debate, just occupy time wasting blabber time.
You are wrong. Believing Scripture is cool. Creation is not negotiable.



I think that folks that go to hell chose to. We have the choice. Some people would be miserable in heaven.

Well that has some dire implications on the morality of the deity you worship.

And apparently god is cool with not saving the majority of people. It doesn't matter how much more powerful god is than me if said being decides never to use that power. And I don't discriminate based on belief.

So, hypothetically, if you were informed as you were about to enter heaven that you would become a prayer zombie, you would flat out choose hell over it? Interesting. However, while I am all for having my heart in the right place, there is no reason I could not still put my own efforts in there, limited as my capabilities are.

I am not negotiating with you, I am debating with you. About a prior state physics idea. At this point, I am not even really arguing against creationism so much as your ideal of creationism.

Belief is not a choice, if it was a purely conscious decision I wouldn't be an atheist. The issue is far more complicated than that.

 

[justlookinla]

Well that has some dire implications on the morality of the deity you worship.

And apparently god is cool with not saving the majority of people. It doesn't matter how much more powerful god is than me if said being decides never to use that power. And I don't discriminate based on belief.

So, hypothetically, if you were informed as you were about to enter heaven that you would become a prayer zombie, you would flat out choose hell over it? Interesting. However, while I am all for having my heart in the right place, there is no reason I could not still put my own efforts in there, limited as my capabilities are.

I am not negotiating with you, I am debating with you. About a prior state physics idea. At this point, I am not even really arguing against creationism so much as your ideal of creationism.

Belief is not a choice, if it was a purely conscious decision I wouldn't be an atheist. The issue is far more complicated than that.

Isn't it a thoughtful and conscious decision to not believe in God?

 

[dad]

Well that has some dire implications on the morality of the deity you worship.

And apparently god is cool with not saving the majority of people. It doesn't matter how much more powerful god is than me if said being decides never to use that power. And I don't discriminate based on belief.

God is cool with letting us chose Him. You want zombies!?

So, hypothetically, if you were informed as you were about to enter heaven that you would become a prayer zombie, you would flat out choose hell over it? Interesting.

I do not see anything about that in the bible. You thought we would lose our identity and free will etc?

However, while I am all for having my heart in the right place, there is no reason I could not still put my own efforts in there, limited as my capabilities are.

Great, so come on over to the wonderful side.

I am not negotiating with you, I am debating with you. About a prior state physics idea. At this point, I am not even really arguing against creationism so much as your ideal of creationism.

Creation is not negotiable for the nommies you were speaking about. They must accept that Jesus created the world period.

Belief is not a choice,

Yes belief comes by hearing the word, and that comes by choice!

 

[PsychoSarah]

Isn't it a thoughtful and conscious decision to not believe in God?

No.

 

[justlookinla]

No.

Why not?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Why not?

For the same reason you can't make yourself believe the sky is green. Everyone has a range of what they are capable of honestly believing, and how much evidence and convincing they need to believe it. As it were, that range varies from person to person. As it were, the amount of convincing and evidence I would need to be a believer in the god you worship is higher than what you need for it.

 

[justlookinla]

Isn't it a thoughtful and conscious decision to not believe in God?

For the same reason you can't make yourself believe the sky is green. Everyone has a range of what they are capable of honestly believing, and how much evidence and convincing they need to believe it. As it were, that range varies from person to person. As it were, the amount of convincing and evidence I would need to be a believer in the god you worship is higher than what you need for it.

I think you misunderstood the question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your answer.

To decide to not believe in God requires one to consider the information and then make a conscious decision to reject the claim that God exists, doesn't it?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I think you misunderstood the question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your answer.

To decide to not believe in God requires one to consider the information and then make a conscious decision to reject the claim that God exists, doesn't it?

No. True, if something is at the boarder line of your "belief range", then you might be able to consciously influence whether or not you will believe in it, but if it is pretty far outside that range, you can't make yourself believe it even if you want it to be true

Being atheist is not my belief preference. I have even been praying for belief for the past 6 years, to no avail thus far

 

[Loudmouth]

To decide to not believe in God requires one to consider the information and then make a conscious decision to reject the claim that God exists, doesn't it?

Is that the same reason you don't believe in Zeus, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy? You made a conscious decision to not believe in them?

 

[justlookinla]

No. True, if something is at the boarder line of your "belief range", then you might be able to consciously influence whether or not you will believe in it, but if it is pretty far outside that range, you can't make yourself believe it even if you want it to be true

Being atheist is not my belief preference. I have even been praying for belief for the past 6 years, to no avail thus far

But you're an atheist after considering all the options and evidence, aren't you?

 

[justlookinla]

Is that the same reason you don't believe in Zeus, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy? You made a conscious decision to not believe in them?

Yes.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes.

Then you have a better understanding of why we don't believe in your god.

 

[bhsmte]

No. True, if something is at the boarder line of your "belief range", then you might be able to consciously influence whether or not you will believe in it, but if it is pretty far outside that range, you can't make yourself believe it even if you want it to be true

Being atheist is not my belief preference. I have even been praying for belief for the past 6 years, to no avail thus far

Agree.

What each person can rationalize to themselves as being a true belief, varies wildly on personal psychological needs.

Some people gravitate to faith beliefs of varying sorts for comfort and others are more prone to roll over every rock before they decide to believe something is true.

The ones who are outside the norm are; ones who claim there is absolutely no God and all religion is evil and the ones who claim there is a zero chance God does not exist and anyone who does not believe is evil. Thankfully, those on the extreme edges, are the minority.

 

[DerelictJunction]

Isn't it a thoughtful and conscious decision to not believe in God?

Belief is not a decision.