Taking Luke 14:33 literally

[mdamon0501]

I agree with everything you said except this: "That just happened to be the particular test that Jesus put to these people." Could you explain where you get that idea? We are reading the same passages but I guess we are seeing two different things More specifically, how would you deal with this counter argument?

1 The apostles were commanded to give up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20
4 Therefore all disciples of Christ were commanded to give up everything.

Right, but I think in this case we are directly referencing the spiritual aspect of these ideas. Whether or no the Apostles had actually given up all of their possessions or not, the question (especially for the modern believer) is, are you attached to anything you have more than you are to God? If say, you lost all your money tomorrow, or a loved one, or anything else dear to you, would that shake your faith enough to shatter it? We see this often in deaths especially, which is another one of the things which Jesus says "Let the dead bury their dead." People are so attached to the person who passes, that in that moment they shatter their faith in pieces. All of these passages are talking about the same idea, whether they have to do with death, personal belongings, or other things which might be closer to your heart than God.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Right, but I think in this case we are directly referencing the spiritual aspect of these ideas. Whether or no the Apostles had actually given up all of their possessions or not, the question (especially for the modern believer) is, are you attached to anything you have more than you are to God? If say, you lost all your money tomorrow, or a loved one, or anything else dear to you, would that shake your faith enough to shatter it? We see this often in deaths especially, which is another one of the things which Jesus says "Let the dead bury their dead." People are so attached to the person who passes, that in that moment they shatter their faith in pieces. All of these passages are talking about the same idea, whether they have to do with death, personal belongings, or other things which might be closer to your heart than God.

I mean I agree with the ideas you are presenting here except I don't see why you are excluding the literal application of the command. (if that is what you are doing) For instance, would you spiritualize the command to "honor your parents" and say you only have to think of them in an honorable way? I doubt you are saying anything like this I'm just trying to clarify.

 

[mdamon0501]

I mean I agree with the ideas you are presenting here except I don't see why you are excluding the literal application of the command. (if that is what you are doing) For instance, would you spiritualize the command to "honor your parents" and say you only have to think of them in an honorable way? I doubt you are saying anything like this I'm just trying to clarify.

Well again, this is part of the spirit idea. You have to understand what a spirit is. Ask yourself this question, why do we call (in certain parts of the world) alcohol: Spirits? It is directly because upon drinking them you inherit a different type of behavior. This too applies to the Bible and its ideas on what constitutes a spiritual believer. Greek medicine first experimented with this idea hundreds of years before Christ, and words in Greek like the one for demon, directly relate back to this medical idea. Its this idea that people inherit "spirits" (patterns of behavior, mentalities, etc, as I like to put it) that make them act in specific ways. The Bible espouses the idea that it is the Servant of God, who is by proxy also a loving servant to all mankind (parents, strangers, loved ones etc.), who embodies the pure spirit. This idea of spiritual faith in all things is such a core aspect of the Bible that there is an entire book (and one of the oldest in the text) dealing with it, and that is the book of Job.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Well again, this is part of the spirit idea. You have to understand what a spirit is. Ask yourself this question, why do we call (in certain parts of the world) alcohol: Spirits? It is directly because upon drinking them you inherit a different type of behavior. This too applies to the Bible and its ideas on what constitutes a spiritual believer. Greek medicine first experimented with this idea hundreds of years before Christ, and words in Greek like the one for demon, directly relate back to this medical idea. Its this idea that people inherit "spirits" (patterns of behavior, mentalities, etc, as I like to put it) that make them act in specific ways. The Bible espouses the idea that it is the Servant of God, who is by proxy also a loving servant to all mankind (parents, strangers, loved ones etc.), who embodies the pure spirit. This idea of spiritual faith in all things is such a core aspect of the Bible that there is an entire book (and one of the oldest in the text) dealing with it, and that is the book of Job.

So basically the spiritual would also encompass a physical act. I am familiar with that idea of spirit. I think you could of just directly said that you were talking about a spiritual state of obedience and also a physical act in obeying the command. So I would think we agree.

 

[mdamon0501]

So basically the spiritual would also encompass a physical act. I am familiar with that idea of spirit. I think you could of just directly said that you were talking about a spiritual state of obedience and also a physical act in obeying the command. So I would think we agree.

I think this is exactly how God designed us. We are good at one thing in particular, from the time we are young all the way to our deaths, and that is mimicking. When someone says "You are what you consume." that is relating to our ability to mimic well, or in the other way of saying it, "Walking in the Spirit" as the Apostle John would say. That is partially why there is said to be power in the Gospel, and in the Bible, because by consuming it, meditating on it, and getting understanding of its totality, everyday of our lives, we by nature begin to embody the spirit of our interpretation. Now, in order to help us think about the book, the stipulation was put in the New Testament that God made the truth seem "foolish" and it makes wise men foolish. When I read this in Pauls letter, I believe it is directly trying to expose the idea that the Bible is purposefully meant to be simple, so that it can be easily understood. This too would go well with the idea that the book is written in the common languages of the day. Everybody was meant to understand it, both the priest, and the child alike. There is actually even one passage that I will have to look for again where they talk about childrens interpetations as oftentime being preferrable, because according to the New Testament young children see the Spirit of God, face to face, like Christ did.

I also thought about this one night, that our own personal spirits which we grow throughout our life may very well read the Bible in different ways purposefully by design. People are all going to take out of the book different aspects which help us more than others. In my opinion, the Spirit which you personally inherit will always be different from mine even if they are in many ways similar, because they are individually unique. This is the same with many types of language, where the slightest emphasis in the pronounciation of a word can drastically change its context.

 

[Ngoni]

I have a mental illness. One day when I was off my medication, I took off all my clothes and left my mom and dad because I said that God told me not to love the things in this world. You could say that I took Luke 14:33 literally. I had absolutely nothing and walked about 2-3 miles in the cold to a local hospital because I heard a voice telling me no one likes hospitals. I believe and still do in what Jesus says about having no possessions. It is just that this world doesn't allow for you to completely follow Him. You get locked up in a mental ward if you do. Your choice.

 

[FameBright]

I think the command is situational. What that means is that if there isn't a community like Jesus and his followers (and they let you join) or a community like the church in Acts then the command does not apply.

Something that I've always tried to make sense of and wondered is: "does God want us to be rich?" Hearing some of the prosperity Gospel, sometime it sure sounds like He does. Especially if you read some of the Old Testament and the blessings He gave that made some of the followers rich. Then Jesus came along and pretty much taught to give all that up.

To put it simply, my thoughts are that God did initially want us to have a lot of things. Then at some point I think He basically turned His back on the World until Jesus put us back in to His good graces. Since God turned His back on the World I think Jesus is teaching us to also give up on the worldly stuff. It's probably what got us in to trouble in the first place.

I didn't get a chance to read everyone's responses yet, but definitely interested to hear what others had to say.