Taking Luke 14:33 literally

[RDKirk]

God waited until I want to a third world nation to show me the meaning of this scripture. If we SEE people that have a need greater then our own then we should give what we can because of our love for them. For example if we see that people are hungry then we are not going to over eat or waste food. We take what we need and pass the rest onto other what have a need greater then our own.

While pondering Luke 12, the Holy Spirit told me, "It's better to be at the head of My blessing chain than at the tail."

By that He meant the same thing Paul spoke in 2 Corinthians 8: "Your abundance is to supply their lack, and their abundance will supply your lack."

 

[zoidar]

I think the command is situational. What that means is that if there isn't a community like Jesus and his followers (and they let you join) or a community like the church in Acts then the command does not apply. (there are false Christs) The verses before Luke 14:33 talk about being careful and considering the cost. (doesn't seem like this was supposed to be done lightly in most cases) I'll leave the other evidence for that out to keep this short. What do you think of the following evidence for this theory?

1 The apostles gave up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20

I have already posted this on the controversial theology section and it didn't get many responses. Hopefully I can get some more feedback here, was curious what disagreements people would have with this.

Luke 14:33
"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions"

How I understand this is that we have to put God first in our life. If it comes to choosing something like making a career or living for God, then the choice for a Christian should be pretty simple.

So no I don't believe you have to give away your car or your house. God could demand that from you, but then He will tell you. Jesus told the rich kid in "Matt 19:21" to give everything to the poor and then follow him. Did Jesus mean it? Certainly, but that doesn't mean he expects us to do the same thing. If He tells you to do it, of course you should. But like I said the meaning of the verse is to live for Christ, put him first in everything you do. In other words, don't serve mammon, serve God.

 

[1 John 4:1]

@zoidar
"Did Jesus mean it? Certainly, but that doesn't mean he expects us to do the same thing."
Why were his disciples astonished and asked "who then can be saved?" How can we inherit a hundredfold family members and lands in this life? (check the parallel in Mark 10:30)

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.​

@All
Thanks for all the replies; it has been interesting. However, no one has addressed the original argument I made for this. I'll restate it here:

1 The apostles were commanded to give up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20
4 Therefore all disciples of Christ were commanded to give up everything.

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar
"Did Jesus mean it? Certainly, but that doesn't mean he expects us to do the same thing."
Why were his disciples astonished and asked "who then can be saved?" How can we inherit a hundredfold family members and lands in this life? (check the parallel in Mark 10:30)

How do you understand this?

As I understand it we have to be ready to give it all up to Christ, even our lives. But it doesn't mean we have to sell everything we have right now in this moment. But there may come a day where we have to choose between Christ or our life.

 

[1 John 4:1]

@zoidar
As I understand it the disciples could only have been shocked and asked "who then can be saved?" if it was a statement that had universal application. If Jesus was saying something specific to that one rich guy then there's no reason to be shocked or to ask a universal question "who can be saved?" because maybe that guy specifically had some sort of problem where he needed to give up his possessions to get over it. The reason rich people have a hard time entering into the kingdom of heaven is because the kingdom of heaven is a movement of people that communally shared things such as you see in Acts 2 and 4 that is a precursor to God's full kingdom on earth. (you'll have to read back through my previous posts for evidence for this) The rich are understandably more attached to their possessions which makes it harder for them. (this explains his other statement about the eye of the needle)

Lastly, unless you believe in the prosperity gospel you can only consistently receive a hundredfold houses, lands, and family members (by following Christ) if you join a community that is like a family and shares all their property.

 

[1 John 4:1]

One other way you could take this is that the disciples believed rich people to be righteous (maybe they believed the prosperity gospel until Jesus straightened them out) so if rich people are more righteous than everyone else then it would make sense to ask "who then can be saved?" However these verses seem to be pretty well connected with Jesus telling the rich guy to give up his possessions:

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”​

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar If Jesus was saying something specific to that one rich guy then there's no reason to be shocked or to ask a universal question "who can be saved?" because maybe that guy specifically had some sort of problem where he needed to give up his possessions to get over it.

What I meant was that it does apply to us in the sense that if we come into a certain situation we have to give it all up for Christ. He must be first and not our belongings. This young man came into such a situation, but he didn't pass the test.

 

[Anto9us]

Peter said "we have left all and followed thee"

But even DURING Jesus' ministry they always had a boat when they needed it, and I assume they had nets to catch fish for them to eat...

Peter's mother-in-law's house? Or Peter's house? I dunno.

Situational or Universal -- hard to tell

 

[Ken Rank]

I think the command is situational. What that means is that if there isn't a community like Jesus and his followers (and they let you join) or a community like the church in Acts then the command does not apply.

I tend to think you are correct, that this is situational. They were in the land, still at the time of the Temple, living more communally and we are in the nations, under purely secular rule (they were too but had more authority on religious matters than we do) and do not live communally. I also wonder if he was speaking to them in that manner because he was sending THEM out... but he isn't sending all of us out. Some of us are called to go out like that, but most of us are not and that might play into it as well.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Peter said "we have left all and followed thee"

But even DURING Jesus' ministry they always had a boat when they needed it, and I assume they had nets to catch fish for them to eat...

@Anto9us Yeah if you read back in my posts there are two explanations for this: 1 "usufruct" 2 "Peter's house" was a term of reference not of legal ownership. As evidence for the second it refers to Peter's house as "Simon (Peter) and Andrew's house" in Mark 1:29 This seems to fit with the idea that they just both stayed there and maybe their community owned it. The boat I think is really easy to explain since they used it during their ministry to carry Jesus (so they gave it up to their community ministry and could have used it for fishing still)

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar
As I understand it the disciples could only have been shocked and asked "who then can be saved?" if it was a statement that had universal application. If Jesus was saying something specific to that one rich guy then there's no reason to be shocked or to ask a universal question "who can be saved?" because maybe that guy specifically had some sort of problem where he needed to give up his possessions to get over it.

I don't think the apostles were shocked by Jesus demanding everything from the rich guy. They had themselves left everything for Jesus, so why would they be shocked? What did shock them was Jesus statement that it's easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to be saved. That was really a shock. That surley sounds like it's impossible for a rich man to be saved, but that's not what Jesus meant, since he then says: "For God everything is possible".

27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” /Matt 19

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” /Matt 19

 

[RDKirk]

I don't think the apostles were shocked by Jesus demanding everything from the rich guy. They had themselves left everything for Jesus, so why would they be shocked? What did shock them was Jesus statement that it's easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to be saved. That was really a shock. That surley sounds like it's impossible for a rich man to be saved, but that's not what Jesus meant, since he then says: "For God everything is possible".

They would have been shocked because the Mosaic Law certainly said that God would bless a righteous man with wealth. Sure, they knew a lot of mean gained wealth dishonestly, but since wealth was a promise of the Law for righteousness, how could it be that getting into heaven would be more difficult for such a man? It sounded to them like Jesus was saying the Law made heaven more difficult.

 

[zoidar]

I don't think the apostles were shocked by Jesus demanding everything from the rich guy. They had themselves left everything for Jesus, so why would they be shocked? What did shock them was Jesus statement that it's easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to be saved. That was really a shock. That surley sounds like it's impossible for a rich man to be saved, but that's not what Jesus meant, since he then says: "For God everything is possible".

27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” /Matt 19

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” /Matt 19

I have to clear this up a bit. They were shocked and said "Then who can be saved?" If it's that hard to come into the kingdom of God, then they feared that no man could. But Jesus assured them "For God everything is possible." That was and is the comfort in this. God will help us!

 

[zoidar]

They would have been shocked because the Mosaic Law certainly said that God would bless a righteous man with wealth. Sure, they knew a lot of mean gained wealth dishonestly, but since wealth was a promise of the Law for righteousness, how could it be that getting into heaven would be more difficult for such a man? It sounded to them like Jesus was saying the Law made heaven more difficult.

To me your explaination sounds a bit too complicated to something that is very simple.

I never heard before that the mosaic law says that a righteous man vill be blessed with wealth... would you mind quote some verses?

 

[1 John 4:1]

I don't think the apostles were shocked by Jesus demanding everything from the rich guy. They had themselves left everything for Jesus, so why would they be shocked? What did shock them was Jesus statement that it's easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to be saved. That was really a shock. That surley sounds like it's impossible for a rich man to be saved, but that's not what Jesus meant, since he then says: "For God everything is possible".

27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” /Matt 19

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” /Matt 19

@zoidar I think you are possibly correct. However, the statement "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." is in reference to the rich man not being willing to give up his possessions and hence not being able to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"They had themselves left everything for Jesus, so why would they be shocked?"

Maybe because he hadn't said anything about this being connected with entering the kingdom of heaven until now. I just don't think they would be that silly to not realize the rich had a harder time giving up their possessions. I think it was the connection with not being able to enter into "the kingdom of heaven" (the movement Jesus started and precursor to heaven on earth) that shocked them. Remember there were other people called disciples that did not give up their possessions at that time (Jesus had a slightly exclusive group it seems) I think this is also more evidence the command in Luke 14:33 was situational (they had to wait for the church in Acts) Compare: Mark 15:43 and John 19:38 In all honesty I'm half convinced you are correct though.

 

[mdamon0501]

Isn't this idea of selling all your belongings a way for Jesus to test the Faith of the people following him?
We can see exactly what he meant when he talked to the Rich Young Ruler:

MATTHEW 19:16-26

And someone came to him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Then he said to him, "Which Ones?" and Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and your mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If you ask me, the idea is simply a practice of Faith. Do you believe in God enough to sell everything you have?

 

[1 John 4:1]

I tend to think you are correct, that this is situational. They were in the land, still at the time of the Temple, living more communally and we are in the nations, under purely secular rule (they were too but had more authority on religious matters than we do) and do not live communally. I also wonder if he was speaking to them in that manner because he was sending THEM out... but he isn't sending all of us out. Some of us are called to go out like that, but most of us are not and that might play into it as well.

Thanks for your thoughts. I think there was plenty of context to show that this command wasn't just for those being sent out. The church in Acts literally observed this as well as the Essenes (which we can see the fingerprints of in the new testament, Paul argues against the Essene doctrine of "works of the law" frequently but never argues against the idea of giving up your possessions) John the Baptist was probably an Essene too in addition to the Johannine literature having many of the same themes. (I know that's a different John though)

I think in the land verses outside the land and the authority on religious matters isn't relevant in this case unless it would somehow prevent a community like the Act's church or the Apostles from forming. There are communes outside the land but how controlling are they and how similar to cults are they? would be my question.

I also do tend to think we should search to see if there's any good communities that we could give up our possessions to. I couldn't imagine trying to explain to God that I didn't follow a command because I didn't bother to look around.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Isn't this idea of selling all your belongings a way for Jesus to test the Faith of the people following him?
We can see exactly what he meant when he talked to the Rich Young Ruler:

MATTHEW 19:16-26

And someone came to him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Then he said to him, "Which Ones?" and Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and your mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If you ask me, the idea is simply a practice of Faith. Do you believe in God enough to sell everything you have?

So I guess my question is, how would you know you have that faith unless you actually do it?

 

[mdamon0501]

So I guess my question is, how would you know you have that faith unless you actually do it?

Its not the point that you have to sell your things to show you have Faith. That just happened to be the particular test that Jesus put to these people. Faith is easy, and powerful. For instance, It is incredibly easy for us to get upset when things happen to us that we do not expect, but if we employ Faith in that moment, we can circumvent the negative attitudes that might otherwise result. You can practice Faith in your day to day life, on both the micro and macro scale. All it requires is that you operate in a way, where acceptance of the current situation, no matter its character, is paramount to you.

 

[1 John 4:1]

Its not the point that you have to sell your things to show you have Faith. That just happened to be the particular test that Jesus put to these people. Faith is easy, and powerful. For instance, It is incredibly easy for us to get upset when things happen to us that we do not expect, but if we employ Faith in that moment, we can circumvent the negative attitudes that might otherwise result. You can practice Faith in your day to day life, on both the micro and macro scale. All it requires is that you operate in a way, where acceptance of the current situation, no matter its character, is paramount to you.

I agree with everything you said except this: "That just happened to be the particular test that Jesus put to these people." Could you explain where you get that idea? We are reading the same passages but I guess we are seeing two different things More specifically, how would you deal with this counter argument?

1 The apostles were commanded to give up everything: Mark 10:28, John 12:5-6 (common purse) Matthew 4:19-20
2 The disciples of the apostles were also Jesus' disciples: John 13:35 and John 4:1-2
3 The apostles were to teach the disciples to observe everything Jesus had commanded them: Matthew 28:18-20
4 Therefore all disciples of Christ were commanded to give up everything.