Taking it out of context?

[elman]

There you go just making accusations. I do not speak for God. I only want people to see false religion for what it is and get out of her. That is what I am trying to do. You can twist what ever you want to say. I will never discredit God.

You make many mistakes in your theology. James 3:2

 

[Logicalthinker]

You make many mistakes in your theology. James 3:2

That is how false religions work. Thank you for your scripture. Notice how the churches fall into that verse also.
Why are there so many factions. Because of the verse you just showed. The religions of the day don't make a stand for God. They're compliant, change there doctrine to fill pews. No one ever gets cast of a church for continuous bad behavior. Cheat on your wife all you want. Your still welcomed in this church. Smoke a cigarettes as soon as you leave church. But that is OK. As long as I ask for forgiveness every night means I can light one up tomorrow.

What ever.

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
You make many mistakes in your theology. James 3:2

That is how false religions work. Thank you for your scripture. Notice how the churches fall into that verse also.
Why are there so many factions. Because of the verse you just showed. The religions of the day don't make a stand for God. They're compliant, change there doctrine to fill pews. No one ever gets cast of a church for continuous bad behavior. Cheat on your wife all you want. Your still welcomed in this church. Smoke a cigarettes as soon as you leave church. But that is OK. As long as I ask for forgiveness every night means I can light one up tomorrow.

What ever.

Read Romans 14. Are you the strong or the weak Christian?

 

[Logicalthinker]

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "This day you will be with me in Paradise."
He did NOT say, "This day you will be sleeping, and the next, and the next, and the next. . ."

Your correct that it does not say he was sleeping. But it does not say he goes to heaven either. Says he will be in paradise. The resurrection. Not Heaven.

There are two different translations for this verse. I would like to show them than explain my reasoning on it.
KJV.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
NWT
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice the comma in two different places. Well it changes the meaning of the whole verse. I prefer the NWT version. This is why.

In the KJV verse Jesus says you will be in paradise today with me. But that can't be. He did not go to Heaven that day. He was dead for three days. Just as dead as Lazarus was. Than after three days, God raised him from the dead. He did not ascend to the father until after meeting and talking to Mary at the tomb. Here is a verse to show that.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So that would make the thief going to heaven before Jesus. Plus the reference to paradise, Jesus is talking about the New Earth. That would make more sense because the thief would be resurrected and be with Jesus.

Paul spoke of being torn between the thought of his coming death, seeing it profitable to stay with those to whom he ministered, but also recognizing that in death he would be "absent from the body, and present with the Lord." (2 Cor. 5:8)
He said nothing about being "absent from the body and sleeping till judgment day."

Paul is one of the anointed ones. The thief was not. Paul did go to Heaven just as scripture says. He had work to do. Everyone else that is not anointed sleep until judgment day. Just like what Jesus said about Lazarus. He is sleeping. Did you know that includes his Mother Mary. She is sleeping too. She is not in heaven. So when people pray to her she can't hear them.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Whether it does or not, He still said they were one.

Jesus says those that believe in him are one also. So are married people. So Jesus himself talks about one being in purpose. Not the same body. Like I said. My father and I are one. We both share the same ideals.

No other way it can happen. Jesus said "EVERY knee will bow to me." Jehovah said "EVERY knee will bow to me." If EVERY knee will bow to Jesus, and EVERY knee will bow to God, and if God is one, then they have to be one and the same in essence. As for Jesus bowing, was that you or someone else while ago who implied He doesn't have knees now?

No it wasn't me that said Jesus has no knees. That is funny stuff. But I feel it is not accurate. Knees or not it is a symbolic reference to showing allengence. The Every they talk about. Could that be mankind they are talking about. Because if it is mankind every knee shall bow to both of them. But Jesus bows to the father.

Jesus is still subject to God in Heaven. If he was God how can he be subject of himself.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Well if he was God wouldn't it be his to give. God picks the anoited to sit with Jesus. Not Jesus. Interesting.

I would also like to point out that the saints. Are picked by man. They are only anointed if God picks them. Man does not have the right.

Apparently there is a scriptural exception to your dogmatic rule:

"And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)

Well you forgot that he was a cloudy piller. And everyone there saw it. He did not show his face to Mosses. He spoke to him face to face. A blind man can talk face to face with someone and never see their face. Plus you forgot the rest of Exodus 33. Where no one sees my face and lives. Sure he let Moses see his brilliant back side. But never his face. Remember you have to cross reference. you can't take it precept upon precept, line by line.

Exodus 33:10-11 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. 11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Here is the verse where God says you can't see my face or you will die.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

That's upper-case "S" in case you missed that too. It ties back to the previous verse about "keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." I want people to see false religion too, and false religion misses details like that one.
The quote comes from Ephesians. If you were familiar enough with Ephesians, you would not miss this and other similar statements that are evidences of Trinity also:

"For by Him (Christ) we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (2:18)

"Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built toether for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." (2:20-22)


"And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Eph. 5:18-21)

This list would grow tremendously if expanded to include the other NT books.

I will concede that the Holy spirit does seem to be a individual. But does it say that he is part of the Godhead? Or just another Angel? Or is it Jesus? Or is it God?
It does not show that the Holy Spirit is anywhere equal to God.

If someone does not see this as Jesus speaking, they are wrong, and provably so from the context (isn't that what this thread is about?).

FIRST: REV. 1:8

The verse just before that clearly indicated who it is: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."
So thanks for making the case for us that this is God, because it refers to Jesus, who is God..

Revelations1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

See the Amen on the end of verse 1:7 That means the next verse is a new paragraph. Not connected to 1:7 because of the amen. 1:7 talks about Jesus and 1:8 is Jehovah talking not Jesus. They are separate.


Revelations1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelationn 1:8 εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος λεγει ο κυριος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ

κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
That is God Jehovah talking not Jesus. The Amen separates the verses. Another indication is the Almighty at the end.
This verse does not show that Jesus is God at all.
Who does the bible call the supreme Authority. Jehovah.

Other versions do not contain the "first and last" part of the statement as found in the KJV, as you have noted. But if it did, it would not change the fact that it is Jesus speaking, as you will see.

THIRD: REV. 1:17-18

The entire portion from 1:10-18, from the NIV:

"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'
12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

The "Son of Man" reference is one indication, it was a phrase used by Jesus to refer to Himself. But the clearest indication is "I was dead." God was never dead. Jesus was. This is Jesus saying "I am the first and the last," not Jehovah. Not that it matters, as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one.".

Jesus is the first and the last. He was the very first thing that Jehovah made. He is also the last thing that Jehovah made. He wss in the beginning with God. He is the only begotten son of God. So none of the angels or man are begotten. He was the only thing that Jehovah created and together they made the rest, including other angels, Earth, and man. So than when God sent him and made him flesh that was the last thing God created. He is the first and the last. Their is indications that Jesus is the ArchAngel Micheal.

Well, He certainly won't be seen, Jesus said so:
"I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17)

The world does not see Him, and we do not need to see Him, for we know He is there living within. Jesus also said:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all things that I said to you." (John 14:26)

But if you really want to see a place where the Holy Spirit was seen, check out the details of the story of Pentecost, with living tongues of fire that were visible as the Holy Spirit gave them the ability to speak with other languages. But the text does not specifically say the tongues of fire "were" the Holy Spirit, an objection I'm sure you'd raise, so we can't say without refutation that this is an instance of the Holy Spirit "being seen." But by golly, the word derives from ruach, meaning "breath" or "wind," and the sound of wind was heard as the Spirit arrived. Even so, we don't see wind, we see the results of wind. And that is what they saw--and boy did they EVER see the results of THIS wind.

So to answer, no, we can't say with absolute certainty that the Holy Spirit has ever been seen. But He certainly speaks, but not with the normal method of sound waves picked up aurally. He speaks from within, which is where He dwells. In some places He is the "Spirit of God," in others He is the "Spirit of Christ." And all three are of the divine essence, that is, God..

I concede that you are correct that he does speak to us. Just not audible.
I do believe that it is the spirit of truth. But wouldn't that mean that Jesus and God have the spirit of truth. That is why it is in them. They don't lie. But I have not seen anywhere that it says the Holy Spirit is equal to God. Or is part of him. It does say that it is in him. Just like it is in us. Doesn't make me part of the Holy Spirit's being.

Well, that's certainly an original! Gee, I don't think I can go along with a watered-down version of Jesus who knows who He is at age 12, and at age 30 has to go into the wilderness to "get His thoughts together." No, my Bible says the Spirit led Him into the wilderness...

Yes he always knew who he was. But he didn't have all the knowledge of his pre-existence until the Holy Spirit came down on him as a dove. Notice that God talks at that time saying how his son pleases him. If Jesus is God why did he talk from heaven and compliment himself?

Well also if he knew everything, why did the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) have to descend on him. You claim he already knew everything of his pre-existance and his mission for God. Hmm.

But yes it was the spirit that lead him to the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

After 40 days and 40 nights of no food, forget bread, people would probably eat the rocks. lol

God Bless
LT

 

[Ratiocination]

Nobody owns God.

I should hope not!

You use "God" in a singular referece so who is he?

 

[Logicalthinker]

A double post. Sorry.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
You make many mistakes in your theology. James 3:2

Read Romans 14. Are you the strong or the weak Christian?

I consider myself to be on the strong side of faith. I'm trying to give up everything of this world. I even denounce my own country because they do not follow God. That takes courage. Everyone hates the guy that doesn't take his hat off for the pledge or anthem. Try it some time and see how it feels. Than you will know what it is like to be judged. When a man comes up to you and wants to punch you in the face and ruin your day at the races, for not taking off your hat. It will scare the poo out of you. But you keep doing what is right, stand tall and follow God.

I have allegiances to God. I will not pledge my allegiance to a flag. That is ridicules. It even sounds weird. Would you pledge your allegiance to a Bald Eagle?
Our country does not follow the laws of God. So I can't follow it. I will live here and raise my children in the nation of God. Not the nation of man. Gods nation is everywhere and has no boundaries.

Are you trying to say I judge people. I don't. As far as this world goes you are an excellent person. We might get along great in person. You do sound like a caring individual.
But I will judge your religion. That is my God given right.
He told us not to be snared.
God Bless
LT

 

[Ratiocination]

I consider myself to be on the strong side of faith. I'm trying to give up everything of this world. I even denounce my own country because they do not follow God. That takes courage. Everyone hates the guy that doesn't take his hat off for the pledge or anthem. Try it some time and see how it feels. Than you will know what is like to be judged. When a man comes up to you and wants to punch you in the face and ruin your day at the races, for not taking off your hat. It will scare the poo out of you. But you keep doing what is right, stand tall and follow God.

I have allegiances to God. I will not pledge my allegiance to a flag. That is ridicules. It even sounds weird. Would you pledge your allegiance to a Bald Eagle?
Our country does not follow the laws of God. So I can't follow it. I will live here and raise my children in the nation of God. Not the nation of man. Gods nation is everywhere and has no boundaries.

...
God Bless
LT

I take my hat off to you logical, I live in Britain and there's not the same strength of national pride as the US, Just keep in mind the long game, what we see now is only here for a little while longer

Think Jehovah.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Revelations1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelationn 1:8 εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος λεγει ο κυριος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ

κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
That is God Jehovah talking not Jesus. The Amen separates the verses. Another indication is the Almighty at the end.
This verse does not show that Jesus is God at all.
Who does the bible call the supreme Authority. Jehovah.

Sorry, but you cannot interpret as you choose, remember?

“Remember you have to cross reference. you can't take it precept upon precept, line by line.”

Your words, not mine. You may separate and parse and micro-scrutinize all you wish, it is Jesus who speaks in Rev. 1, just as it is Jesus who speaks in Revelation 22:12-13:

Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Yes he always knew who he was. But he didn't have all the knowledge of his pre-existence until the Holy Spirit came down on him as a dove.

And where in Scripture, pray tell, do you find this wonderful information? Sure must be obscure, I’ve never seen it.

Well also if he knew everything, why did the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) have to descend on him.

I made no claim that He “knew everything.” I was simply refuting your unsupportable claim that Jesus went into the wilderness “to get His thoughts together.” Having scattered thoughts is a human attribute never exhibited by Jesus at any time, even after enduring beating and crucifixion.

If Jesus is God why did he talk from heaven and compliment himself?

He didn’t. That was God the Father. Or did you forget that Jesus “emptied Himself and took the form of a servant?” Or maybe you forgot that Jesus was sent by the Father, or that He was “begotten” rather than created? They are the same in essence but not the same in Person. Because of this, as stated before, what is said of one (referring to attributes) may be said of the other, the Holy Spirit included. In other things, there is a natural separation of what pertains to each. The Father did not die on the cross, Jesus does not know the time of His return but the Father does, etc. etc.

Trinity is often better explained by analogy, and one that works as well as any, is that of ice, water, and steam. The three are very different in many characteristics: one is liquid, one is solid, one is gaseous. Yet they are all the same in essence, being made up of H2O.

Someone might try to argue they cannot be the same, for one is solid and hard and may be grasped; one is liquid and may be contained in measurable quantities, but is less able to be handled and held; and the other is far less tangible in nature. Yet waht it all boils down to (or freezes, as the case may be), they are all the exact same substance and essence.

In like manner, you raise objections based on the manifestations of each, while the basic essence of which they subsist as deity, is the same for all three.

I prefer the NWT version.

And therein lies the tale. You choose that which "you" prefer. The NWT is far worse than the KJV you criticize, twisting words to make them fit a preconceived doctrine that is contrary to genuine Christian faith. I could go into much more detail, but since you obviously will choose that which you prefer over anything I or anyone else might say to you, I'm afraid my involvement in this discussion has ended.

 

[elman]

I should hope not!

You use "God" in a singular referece so who is he?

The Creator-a spirit-non physical entity.

 

[elman]

I consider myself to be on the strong side of faith. I'm trying to give up everything of this world. I even denounce my own country because they do not follow God. That takes courage. Everyone hates the guy that doesn't take his hat off for the pledge or anthem. Try it some time and see how it feels. Than you will know what it is like to be judged. When a man comes up to you and wants to punch you in the face and ruin your day at the races, for not taking off your hat. It will scare the poo out of you. But you keep doing what is right, stand tall and follow God.

I have allegiances to God. I will not pledge my allegiance to a flag. That is ridicules. It even sounds weird. Would you pledge your allegiance to a Bald Eagle?
Our country does not follow the laws of God. So I can't follow it. I will live here and raise my children in the nation of God. Not the nation of man. Gods nation is everywhere and has no boundaries.

Are you trying to say I judge people. I don't. As far as this world goes you are an excellent person. We might get along great in person. You do sound like a caring individual.
But I will judge your religion. That is my God given right.
He told us not to be snared.
God Bless
LT

God bless you.

 

[Logicalthinker]

Sorry, but you cannot interpret as you choose, remember?

Your words, not mine. You may separate and parse and micro-scrutinize all you wish, it is Jesus who speaks in Rev. 1, just as it is Jesus who speaks in Revelation 22:12-13:

I don't interpret the bible. It interprets it self, And who does the bible call the Supreme Authority?

I will find Apostates. I was told to watch for them by God in scripture. You argue with him. If you can't see taking his name out of the bible in only some places as an apostate. I don't know what to say.

Plus you are the one that is not looking for all the little clues. Like the Amen. in Rev. 1:7 Not me. Those are the little clues that are needed to find the truth. You have to look for him he doesn't look for you.

Man has never seen God. We know John was not a liar. So he must be the son of God and not God.

Plus Jesus was not a liar. Why not just tell us he was God. Instead of a persona of being God's son.
Isn't it dishonest to decieve people on who you are?

Would God or Jesus be dishonest with us?

To clear up some more confusion When talking about the trinity the three heads are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And all 3 together is God.

Notice John didn't say no one has ever seen the Father. He said God. You can't just seperate them at your convience. Either they are all God or not.

And where in Scripture, pray tell, do you find this wonderful information? Sure must be obscure, I’ve never seen it.



I made no claim that He “knew everything.” I was simply refuting your unsupportable claim that Jesus went into the wilderness “to get His thoughts together.” Having scattered thoughts is a human attribute never exhibited by Jesus at any time, even after enduring beating and crucifixion.

You act like Jesus didn't have human qualities. He did. A lot of them. He was human physically. When they cut him he felt it. He was just as frail as any human today. Physically anyways. When somthing was sad he weeped. When somthing was happy he laughed. But in the same sense he was more than human. The parts of him that were not physical. They were of divine origin.
But here. You know this verse I'm sure, but it really shows Jesus's vulnerabilities as a human. To say he never had human attribute is ridiculas.

Luke22:41-44 41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

This verse tears my heart up. I have 2 boys. And I always think. What if my son had a mission that we both knew about and in the mission he would be tortured and killed. Say he came to me and fell at my feet saying father please let me live. And knowing that his mission could save millions I still send him to his torture and physical death. Can you imagine the pain Jehovah felt in his heart when Jesus was praying to him about this matter.

It is quite clear Jesus had human attributes. Satan knew Jesus would be delusional after not eating for 40 days. A perfect time to try to temp him. But Jesus pulls through, He shows Satan that his faith in his Father is unshackable. What a guy. Then the Angels come to minister to him.

If he was not weak and delusional from no food why would angels have to minister to him?
But you can make Jesus congienal to you. Most people do.

No human attributes at all. A machine sent to do a purpose.

1101011100111000100100100111110010101010.

I think it is very unfeeling for people to think he is just binary and did not have many levels to him. He is more than just a tool for God. He has feelings and depth.

He didn’t. That was God the Father. Or did you forget that Jesus “emptied Himself and took the form of a servant?” Or maybe you forgot that Jesus was sent by the Father, or that He was “begotten” rather than created? They are the same in essence but not the same in Person. Because of this, as stated before, what is said of one (referring to attributes) may be said of the other, the Holy Spirit included. In other things, there is a natural separation of what pertains to each. The Father did not die on the cross, Jesus does not know the time of His return but the Father does, etc. etc.

Trinity is often better explained by analogy, and one that works as well as any, is that of ice, water, and steam. The three are very different in many characteristics: one is liquid, one is solid, one is gaseous. Yet they are all the same in essence, being made up of H2O.

Someone might try to argue they cannot be the same, for one is solid and hard and may be grasped; one is liquid and may be contained in measurable quantities, but is less able to be handled and held; and the other is far less tangible in nature. Yet waht it all boils down to (or freezes, as the case may be), they are all the exact same substance and essence.

In like manner, you raise objections based on the manifestations of each, while the basic essence of which they subsist as deity, is the same for all three..

You must have a Catholic decoder ring. Where words like Begotton, Only, Son, all mean something else. Did you get that in a box of Catholic Flakes? I could sure use one?
Here's the real deffinitions for you.

be·get
(bĭ-gět') Pronunciation Key
tr.v. be·got (-gŏt'), be·got·ten (-gŏt'n) or be·got, be·get·ting, be·gets

1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce

Not only fathering a child but it also means to cause to exist. Interesting.

on·ly
Show Spelled Pronunciation[ohn-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adverb
1. without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively: This information is for your eyes only.
2. no more than; merely; just: If it were only true! I cook only on weekends.
3. as recently as: I read that article only yesterday.
4. in the final outcome or decision: You will only regret your harsh words to me.
–adjective
5. being the single one or the relatively few of the kind: This is the only pencil I can find.
6. having no sibling or no sibling of the same sex: an only child; an only son.
7. single in superiority or distinction; unique; the best: the one and only Muhammad Ali.
–conjunction
8. but (introducing a single restriction, restraining circumstance, or the like): I would have gone, only you objected.
9. Older Use. except; but: Only for him you would not be here.
—Idiom
10. only too,
a. as a matter of fact; extremely: I am only too glad to go.
b. unfortunately; very: It is only too likely to happen.

son
Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a male child or person in relation to his parents.
2. a male child or person adopted as a son; a person in the legal position of a son.
3. any male descendant: a son of the Aztecs.
4. a son-in-law.
5. a person related as if by ties of sonship.
6. a male person looked upon as the product or result of particular agencies, forces, influences, etc.: a true son of the soil.
7. a familiar term of address to a man or boy from an older person, an ecclesiastic, etc.

Plus I see your decoder ring does math. 1+1+1=1. Man that thing is perfect. I sure wish I could have an illogical decoder ring.

And therein lies the tale. You choose that which "you" prefer. The NWT is far worse than the KJV you criticize, twisting words to make them fit a preconceived doctrine that is contrary to genuine Christian faith. I could go into much more detail, but since you obviously will choose that which you prefer over anything I or anyone else might say to you, I'm afraid my involvement in this discussion has ended.

Genuine Christian Faith is not following God. Sorry.

Would you please show me in any way that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not follow God. They are more Christian than any other faith I have witnessed. They are very serious about it. Just like we are suppost to be. They are vigilant in their worship of God. Unlike the Porn watching, smoking, child molesting, drug using, Abortion having, War making, Vengful, road raging, Christians of the day. God would sure be proud.

I choose the one that makes logical sense. You can think that the theif was in heaven before Jesus. That's fine, even if it doesn't make sense.
I showed you the logic behind it, and you just blew by it. Must be using your decoder ring.

Why can't you discuss the bible with me?

You know whats really funny, I know you would do this as soon as I showed you a NWT verse.

If you notice I use the KJV for everyone of my scriptures. When I use a different one I say which one. So all the verses on this post that I have showed you other than the one I told you about, are from the KJV. Look them all up. I argue with your book. You know why? Because they are basically all the same and the truth is still in all of them. You just have to dig harder than others. Like the theif was in Heaven before Jesus. Please. That is just ridiculas. If you can't see that I don't know what to say. How about this. Go ahead and stay with what is comfortable to you. And I will continue to stand up for God and Jesus against this wicked world and the False Religions that pollute it by following the doctrine of Man.

I use the KJV so people like you will not try to discredit what I have to say. I use the apostate bible to prove my points. Your bible.

God bless
LT

 

[Ratiocination]

The Creator-a spirit-non physical entity.

Creator?

How do you define a "spirit", i thought is was a strong drink.

So God is an invisable Liquor!

1.a distilled or spirituous beverage, as brandy or whiskey, as distinguished from a fermented beverage, as wine or beer.

Dictionary.com

 

[Logicalthinker]

I take my hat off to you logical, I live in Britain and there's not the same strength of national pride as the US, Just keep in mind the long game, what we see now is only here for a little while longer

Think Jehovah.

Thank you brother.
Nationalism or God. Can't have both especially if the country does not follow the commandments of God. The People of God have to make a stand. Not become compliant to mans ways.

God Bless
LT

 

[elman]

Creator?

How do you define a "spirit", i thought is was a strong drink.

So God is an invisable Liquor!

1.a distilled or spirituous beverage, as brandy or whiskey, as distinguished from a fermented beverage, as wine or beer.

Dictionary.com

God is a spirit. That means He is not physical nor part of this physical universe.

 

[Ratiocination]

God is a spirit. That means He is not physical nor part of this physical universe.

Do we take your word for this or can you prove it without using sourses that are "tainted by man"?

 

[Logicalthinker]

Sorry, but you cannot interpret as you choose, remember?



Your words, not mine. You may separate and parse and micro-scrutinize all you wish, it is Jesus who speaks in Rev. 1, just as it is Jesus who speaks in Revelation 22:12-13:

Well I did not have time this morning to go and read these verses that you had suggested.

Here from the KJV.

Revelation 22
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.





8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


Well. If that Angel is Jesus. He just told John not to worship him. Or the angel wasn't Jesus but was speaking for Jesus. Lets read on. Oh look in verse 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Ok. So now we know that it is an angel testifying for Jesus. So lets look at this verse. Now remember this is an angel talking for Jesus.

13 I (Jesus, angel speaks for him) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his ( Jehovah ) commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Oh no. Shows separation. Notice this time the verse does not end with Almighty. So I Agree, this is Jesus speaking through an angel to John and says to follow his fathers commandments.


Something to ponder on.
God Bless
LT

 

[Logicalthinker]

And therein lies the tale. You choose that which "you" prefer. The NWT is far worse than the KJV you criticize, twisting words to make them fit a preconceived doctrine that is contrary to genuine Christian faith. I could go into much more detail, but since you obviously will choose that which you prefer over anything I or anyone else might say to you, I'm afraid my involvement in this discussion has ended.

I was sitting and thinking. Didn't Rev. Wayne use a verse from a different bible that he preferred. So I went back through the post. Sure enough.

Rev. Wayne. I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander with you.

Why can you use verses from different bibles that you prefer and as soon as someone else does you get all pouty? Why is that?

Is that not hypocritical?

I mean you can back out of the thread any time you want. No one is making you stay. But to use that as an excuse. Something you did too.

Plus If your bible is more accurate use it to disprove the NWT. Because I can use any bible makes no difference to me.
All the bibles say that Jesus was dead for three days. Right.
They all say that he didn't ascend to the father until after talking to his Mother at the tomb. Right.

So answer my Question please.

How can Jesus and the thief be in Heaven together, that day, if Jesus did not ascend to the father until 3 days later?

The entire portion from 1:10-18, from the NIV:

"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: 'Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'

 

[Rev Wayne]

I was sitting and thinking. Didn't Rev. Wayne use a verse from a different bible that he preferred. So I went back through the post. Sure enough.

Rev. Wayne. I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander with you.

Why can you use verses from different bibles that you prefer and as soon as someone else does you get all pouty? Why is that?

Is that not hypocritical?

I regularly consult quite a number of translations. What you probably saw was where I was ACCUSED by you of preferring King James. The accusation was in error, for if I truly preferred one, KJV would be one of the least likely. And anyway, it was the NEW King James I’ve quoted from quite a bit on this thread, and mainly because I am in the process of packing up things in the house, I have a moving date of June 13. My books are all packed up and this one Bible was the only one left sitting out unpacked. Even at that, if you will consult every reference I have posted, you will find that the longer quotes that go 3 or more verses, are mainly from the NIV. And the reasons are simple as well: If I’m looking for a verse or two, it’s easier for me just to pick up the Bible and turn to it and type it; if it is longer, I search for it on an online Bible site and the NIV is usually the default.

There are a lot of good versions out there and if one of many of them were to be selected as the default search reference for online Bible sites, I would have no problem posting from those.

As for the New World Translation, you are talking about a radically different situation than the one that exists in comparing among other versions. The New World Translation was produced by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, New York. It is a cult Bible produced by a cult group. Translation is slanted to favor JW’s theological positions. Bruce Metzger, arguably the most knowledgeable New Testament Greek scholar in the world, calls it a “shocking mistranslation.” It has enough spurious interpretations in it that I would not even give it any implied validation by calling it a “translation.” I don’t think the term fits.

I mean you can back out of the thread any time you want. No one is making you stay. But to use that as an excuse.

No “excuse” to it. You have simply shown time and again that you will create whatever kind of response you need to post in order to appear to be right. In the case which you refer to, you said:

Notice the comma in two different places. Well it changes the meaning of the whole verse. I prefer the NWT version. This is why.

You fully acknowledge that the NWT puts the comma in a different place. You also acknowledge that it changes the meaning. And then you say you prefer the NWT and this is why, apparently, because it alters meanings to suit your interpretations.

What I said is true of all who hold to belief in the NWT, they all will pick and choose what they will believe in Scripture, and if that doesn’t work, then they will insist on a Bible written just for them, which has done the picking and choosing for them already, not to mention its many alterations. If you don’t like the idea that “the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God,” they figure, then just change it to suit yourself and make it say “and the Word was ‘A’ god.” If they don’t llke Hebrews 1:8, “But to the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,” then by all means, change it to read “God is your throne forever,” which makes no sense at all. Change it, delete it, explain it away until it dies the death of 1,000 qualifications, ANYTHING but let it say what it says, and have the Son referred to as God. If you don’t like Zech. 10:12, “They will look upon ME whom they have pierced,” being said by God, then alter it so that it reads “they will look upon ‘the one’ whom they have pierced.” If you don’t like the Holy Spirit hovering over the waters in Genesis 1:1-2, then just change it so it reads “God’s active force,” in spite of the ruach elohim found in the Hebrew. And apparently, if you don’t like the things Jesus says in Revelation, then explain away the “Revelation of Jesus Christ,” as it is called at the outset, as a “Revelation of Jehovah.” They have simply decided that Unitarianism is the only thing that makes sense, and that Trinitarianism is not, and run with that assumption to all the wrong ends, and use all the wrong means to get there.

I made no claim that He “knew everything.” I was simply refuting your unsupportable claim that Jesus went into the wilderness “to get His thoughts together.” Having scattered thoughts is a human attribute never exhibited by Jesus at any time, even after enduring beating and crucifixion.

You act like Jesus didn't have human qualities. He did. A lot of them. He was human physically. When they cut him he felt it. He was just as frail as any human today. Physically anyways. When somthing was sad he weeped. When somthing was happy he laughed. But in the same sense he was more than human. The parts of him that were not physical. They were of divine origin.
But here. You know this verse I'm sure, but it really shows Jesus's vulnerabilities as a human. To say he never had human attribute is ridiculas.

To imply that I SAID He never had human attributes is even MORE ridiculous. What I DID say was:

“Having scattered thoughts is a human attribute never exhibited by Jesus at any time.”

That statement speaks only of “having scattered thoughts.” It does not say “Jesus never had human attributes,” which would be a nonsensical statement to make anyway, seeing that He thirsted, he ate, and he died on the cross. Simply put, I only said, “Jesus never had scattered thoughts at any time.” Therefore the statement that “Jesus went into the wilderness to get His thoughts together” is nonsense. But especially so in light of the context which tells us “the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness, where He was tempted for forty days and forty nights.”

You have many times misrepresented and misinterpreted what I have said, I suppose I should see it as no surprise that you also misinterpret Scripture and hold with others who do. You have also many times suggested many things which Scripture does not address and/or for which you have no biblical support.

I choose the one that makes logical sense. You can think that the theif was in heaven before Jesus. That's fine, even if it doesn't make sense.

This straw man response has been typical of most of your responses to me from the beginning. You talk about things not making sense, but make no sense in how you understand what I have said. Your moniker is an oxymoron. As pointed out, further conversation is pointless as long as you continue to address things I have not said, while pretending that I did, and continue to post your own speculations as though they were scripturally based when they are not.

Why can't you discuss the bible with me?

Because you don’t believe it, plain and simple. You believe the NWT, which is not the Bible, it is a distortion of it. You’ve talked right past everything I’ve said with your straw man versions of what I said anyway. So perhaps we should just commend each other to the grace of God, agree that there is no resolution of any disagreements occurring here, and move on.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Goodbye, and God bless. Your interpretations are what I reject, and not you as a person or even as a believer, since Jesus did say that "whoever is not against us is for us." I wish you well, and no, it's not that I can't discuss the Bible with you, it's just that we see eye to eye on so few points that it becomes long and tedious doing explanations. And it becomes even more so in re-explaining positions after you have posted responses that were far afield from my actual comments.

I prefer to depart in peace rather than pursue this further, that's all.

In Christ