Take the NIV Challenge

Jephunneh · Jan 9, 2003

You do know that there is not such thing as " the original text " don't ya. Who are you trying to kid?
Do you have an English Bible? Take a NIV and a KJV and compair them for yourself. Or read "the Greek" whatever you think is the words of God.

...............................................

Matt. 6:13--
"13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."NIV

"13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." KJV

Check the footnote in the NIV. They took out "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen" Could it be that it casts more doubt on the KJV and on the word as a whole? They're liars, plain and simple.
Even using this verse and the part that they left. Which is correct? "..deliver us from the evil one" or "..deliver us from evil." If we are delivered from the evil one, we are not delivered from evil but we are delivered from the evil one when we are delivered from evil.

kern · Jan 9, 2003

Jep -- stop the little digs against the Catholic church or I *will* report your posts.

-Chris

kern · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by Jephunneh
You do know that there is not such thing as " the original text " don't ya.

Of course there is! We don't have access to it, but it existed.

Do you have an English Bible? Take a NIV and a KJV and compair them for yourself. Or read "the Greek" whatever you think is the words of God.

So we are free to use whichever one we want?

Check the footnote in the NIV. They took out "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen"

Because it was a later addition to the book.

They're liars, plain and simple.

Who?

Even using this verse and the part that they left. Which is correct? "..deliver us from the evil one" or "..deliver us from evil." If we are delivered from the evil one, we are not delivered from evil but we are delivered from the evil one when we are delivered from evil.

You can't use logic to figure out what you think the Word of God says. The Greek is the original, and thus most authoritative, version.

-Chris

seebs · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by Jephunneh
You do know that there is not such thing as " the original text " don't ya. Who are you trying to kid?

Only people who think that Christ actually said these things you so gleefuly explain the problems with.

Do you have an English Bible? Take a NIV and a KJV and compair them for yourself.

I have several, thanks. It is by studying several of them, and seeing the differences in translations, that we get a good feel for what God meant.

This sentiment is hardly unique to me; it was one of the sentiments expressed by the translators of the KJV, when they advocated the use of multiple sources.

Matt. 6:13--
"13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."NIV

"13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." KJV

Check the footnote in the NIV. They took out "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen" Could it be that it casts more doubt on the KJV and on the word as a whole? They're liars, plain and simple.

It could also be that there is good reason to believe that the text you refer to was added substantially later, and was not part of what was first written down.

Even using this verse and the part that they left. Which is correct? "..deliver us from the evil one" or "..deliver us from evil." If we are delivered from the evil one, we are not delivered from evil but we are delivered from the evil one when we are delivered from evil.

Ahh, I see. Once again, what's important isn't what Christ *actually said*, but what we *want* Him to have said.

The Thadman · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by kern
The Greek is the original, and thus most authoritative, version.

-Chris

Er... Take a peek at http://www.AramaicNT.org

There's a lot of evidence that a good chunk of the NT wasn't written in Greek at all.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

Jephunneh · Jan 10, 2003

Rev. 5:14--
"14. The four living creatures said, 'Amen,' and the elders fell down and worshiped." NIV

"14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." KJV

Worshipped what, who in the NIV? The KJV shows us, "Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb forever."

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
What kind of light are you using?

kern · Jan 10, 2003

Well, you have shown a complete inability to respond to the points people are making, so I will be done with this "debate" until you can come up with some responses instead of just posting differences between the versions.

-Chris

Jephunneh · Jan 10, 2003

Chris, if you would like to debate I can give you the address of a debating forum where you can be with others of "like faith".

"instead of just posting differences between the versions." HELLO, Chris, thats the point of this THREAD.

You need to start a thread about manuscript evidence, or would you rather I start one?

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
What kind of light are you using?

I Peter 4:1--
"1. Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin." NIV

"1. Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" KJV

So if we suffer in the body, are we done with sin? Wouldn't you say, "for us" is needed in this verse? Because Christ has suffered in his body for us, then by his power, his presence in our lives we too can overcome sin. if we move in the same mind set that he had. Determined to walk in victory but we can only do it because he suffered for us.

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105

What kind of light are you using?

The Thadman · Jan 10, 2003

1 Peter 4:1:

TEXT: "Christ suffered in the flesh"
EVIDENCE: p72 B C Psi 1739 1881 lat vg cop(south)
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV
RANK: B

NOTES: "Christ suffered in the flesh for us"
EVIDENCE: Sc A K P 33 81 104 614 630 945 1241 Byz Lect syr(h) cop(north)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV RSVn

NOTES: "Christ suffered in the flesh for you(pl)"
EVIDENCE: S* ("died") 2495 syr(p)
TRANSLATIONS: RSVn

COMMENTS: "For us" is absent from early manuscripts of both the Alexandrian and Western types. However, the Pe$hitta holds a unique reading "for you(pl)" which seems to be more along the lines of Peter's writings (he was addressing the addressees of his letter).

Shlomo! (Peace!)

The Thadman · Jan 10, 2003

Originally posted by Jephunneh
In the footnote of my NIV, it says, 'Peter means rock'. What they want is you to associate the rock that Jesus is building His Church on with Peter. Jesus wasn't saying that. He uses a different Greek word for Peter (Petros) and the rock on which he is going to build His Church is (Petra) and Jesus is called the Petra in the Bible in I Cor. 10:4 to name one.

Jesus did NOT speak Greek. He might have known a few phrases in Greek, but it's a SLIM chance that he spoke and taught in it.

He would have used the Aramaic language (which is far simpler than Greek).

In Aramaic, the word for "Rock" is "Keefo" (remember "Cephas" in the Greek? same word), and it's a strictly masculine noun (so for "Petros" and "Petra" there is only ONE equivalent "Keefo").

Matthew 16:18:
Also I say to you, that you are Keefo: and upon this keefo, I will build my church: and the gates of Sheool shall not triumph over it.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

kern · Jan 10, 2003

Originally posted by Jephunneh
Chris, if you would like to debate I can give you the address of a debating forum where you can be with others of "like faith".

LOL, go ahead and give me the address. I fully expect this to be an insult of some sort, but we'll see.

"instead of just posting differences between the versions." HELLO, Chris, thats the point of this THREAD.

You need to start a thread about manuscript evidence, or would you rather I start one?

Discussing differences bewteen the versions *IS* dicussing manuscript evidence. That's all it is!

Why else do you think the KJV has some verses that the NIV does not have?

Wouldn't you say, "for us" is needed in this verse?

I'm not going to guess at what I personally think is "needed" or "not needed" in God's Word.

-Chris

Jephunneh · Jan 10, 2003

Mark 7:16--
16." "NIV

"16. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." KJV

I think that Westcott and Hort didn't like that verse since they were kind of like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' day, they didn't have ears to hear so it went to the footnote.

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105

What kind of light are you using?

kern · Jan 10, 2003

Westcott and Hort died in the 19th century. Ad hominem attacks towards them don't work -- there's been more than a century of Biblical scholarship since they were alive.

Like usual, it's not in the NIV because it's not found in older manuscripts.

-Chris

The Thadman · Jan 10, 2003

I can't help but feel ignored

Shlomo! (Peace!)

seebs · Jan 10, 2003

Originally posted by Jephunneh
Rev. 5:14--
"14. The four living creatures said, 'Amen,' and the elders fell down and worshiped." NIV

"14. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." KJV

Worshipped what, who in the NIV? The KJV shows us, "Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb forever."

So? I can take a KJV, find something a bit ambiguous, add even *MORE* words, and say "look how clear this is, clearly it's a divinely inspired translation".

"Includes additional material" is hardly proof of divine inspiration; it seems more likely proof of poor research, because material tends to get added to holy books over time, and the new material is obviously not part of the original text.

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:105
What kind of light are you using?

An accurate one, I should hope.

kern · Jan 10, 2003

Originally posted by The Thadman
I can't help but feel ignored

I share your feeling. Why doesn't Jep just post a webpage with all this stuff on it? It's been typed up a number of times.

And of course, my question has still not been answered -- since the KJV people had no idea that their translation was inspired (and in fact specifically denied that it was), how did anyone figure out that it was.

-Chris

Jephunneh · Jan 10, 2003

Acts 2:38--

"38. Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." NIV ('78 edition)

"38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." KJV

In the '78 edition it's wrong, changed in the newer editions. We don't get baptized to get forgivenss of sins, we get baptized for the remission of sins.
QUESTION: If you took an aspirin for a headache, do you take it to get a headache or because you already have one? Do you get baptized whether in water or the Holy Spirit to get remission of sins or because you already have it?

kern · Jan 10, 2003

"for the remission of sins" is the same thing as "so that your sins may be forgiven".

And anyway, once again you are going backwards -- you are saying that the NIV must be wrong because it conflicts with your personal version of Christianity.

-Chris

Jephunneh · Jan 10, 2003

I said that? huh? Where would that be?

John 6:47--

"47. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life." NIV

"47.Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." KJV

Believes what? Isn't 'on me' clearer? I 'believe' that it is going to rain so I'm saved.

MizDoulos · Jan 10, 2003

Reminder:&nbsp&nbspPlease do not air your personal conflicts publicly. Use your e-mail or the private message option to do so. Let's learn to respect each other's differences of opinion and contribute in a positive manner or agree to disagree and move on. If the bickering continues, the thread will be closed.

Thank you for your cooperation.

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