Taize service?

[Tangible]

Mysticism is a way that we try to approach God on our own through experience. We can never approach God on our own by any means and live. We can only approach God under the blood of Christ and not through any effort of our own.

Check this out: Three Broken Ladders « The World Wide Wolfmueller

 

[seajoy]

I can ask around and see if this has picked up momentum since '04, though. Never hurts to be on the lookout for dangerous teachings and practices trying to get into our churches and synod.

Amen - truth is always good.....not putting on blinders.

 

[goldbeach]

Mysticism is a way that we try to approach God on our own through experience. We can never approach God on our own by any means and live. We can only approach God under the blood of Christ and not through any effort of our own.

Check this out: Three Broken Ladders « The World Wide Wolfmueller

Mysticism is also the unexplained essence of God which we can't understand because the Bible doesn't explain it. ".....God's ways are not our ways......" For instance why is the Body and Blood in communion bread and wine? We don't know----we just accept. We don't try to explain God.

 

[seajoy]

Mysticism is also the unexplained essence of God which we can't understand because the Bible doesn't explain it. ".....God's ways are not our ways......" For instance why is the Body and Blood in communion bread and wine? We don't know----we just accept. We don't try to explain God.

I look at that as mysteries, not mysticism. I had best get out the online dictionary.

 

[Bryne]

Mysticism is also the unexplained essence of God which we can't understand because the Bible doesn't explain it. ".....God's ways are not our ways......" For instance why is the Body and Blood in communion bread and wine? We don't know----we just accept. We don't try to explain God.

That is kind of how I look at mysticism.

 

[SyntheticPaper]

I don't think I would like this much and I really, really don't think I would get much out of it. When something is sung (secular music, ccm music, hymns, whatever it might be) my brain just stops paying attention to the actual words and starts to wander.

 

[Tangible]

Mysticism is also the unexplained essence of God which we can't understand because the Bible doesn't explain it. ".....God's ways are not our ways......" For instance why is the Body and Blood in communion bread and wine? We don't know----we just accept. We don't try to explain God.

That would be mystery, not mysticism. Big difference.

There are whole religions built around mysticism. Eastern religions are very mystical. Eastern Orthodox and some aspects of Roman Catholicism are very mystical.

From mysticism - definition of mysticism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
(My own highlighting.)

mys·ti·cism (m

s

t

-s

z

m)n.1. a. Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God.
b. The experience of such communion as described by mystics.

2. A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience.
3. Vague, groundless speculation.

mysticism [ˈmɪstɪˌsɪzəm]n1. belief in or experience of a reality surpassing normal human understanding or experience, esp a reality perceived as essential to the nature of life
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a system of contemplative prayer and spirituality aimed at achieving direct intuitive experience of the divine
3. obscure or confused belief or thought

 

[seajoy]

That would be mystery, not mysticism. Big difference.

There are whole religions built around mysticism. Eastern religions are very mystical. Eastern Orthodox and some aspects of Roman Catholicism are very mystical.

From mysticism - definition of mysticism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
(My own highlighting.)

mys·ti·cism (m

s

t

-s

z

m)n.1. a. Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God.
b. The experience of such communion as described by mystics.

2. A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience.
3. Vague, groundless speculation.

mysticism [ˈmɪstɪˌsɪzəm]n1. belief in or experience of a reality surpassing normal human understanding or experience, esp a reality perceived as essential to the nature of life
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a system of contemplative prayer and spirituality aimed at achieving direct intuitive experience of the divine
3. obscure or confused belief or thought

Good job on this, Tange - now I don't have to look it up.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm WELS too and I've never heard of this kind of service. The article explains what this type of service is, but I don't see any endorsement from WELS as a whole that this is seeing wide-spread use in our churches. The article mentions that this type of service will be used at Atonement church through 2004.

I don't see its use widespread, either. I've seen one or two services, and played in one, and two of them were at a worship conference. They are NEVER meant to replace liturgical Sunday worship and the LCMS was wrong to go down the path it did.

Most churches don't have separate services apart from their Sunday services and that's the ONLY time I've seen these used.

They are not bad, not evil, but certainly the method can be abused. I just found them to be wonderful for meditating on God's word. It reminded me of when I actually had time to sit down, turn on some classical music and just read and study the bible with no interruptions. Just me and God, I guess you could say.

And no, before anyone goes crazy, it's not a meditation service like Yoga meditation or anything like that.

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't see its use widespread, either. I've seen one or two services, and played in one, and two of them were at a worship conference. They are NEVER meant to replace liturgical Sunday worship and the LCMS was wrong to go down the path it did.

Most churches don't have separate services apart from their Sunday services and that's the ONLY time I've seen these used.

They are not bad, not evil, but certainly the method can be abused. I just found them to be wonderful for meditating on God's word. It reminded me of when I actually had time to sit down, turn on some classical music and just read and study the bible with no interruptions. Just me and God, I guess you could say.

And no, before anyone goes crazy, it's not a meditation service like Yoga meditation or anything like that.

I, certainly can't speak with any authority regarding what happens at one of these services, since I've never been to one and have only read one article about them. I meditate upon Scripture when I pray the rosary, minus the prayers to Mary of course.

 

[Luther073082]

I went to a Taize service at an LCMS church maybe 2 years ago. Wasn't a replacement for Sunday Divine service. I think it was a mid-week Lenten service or something like that.

I have to say, I don't think it was my thing. Nothing I found particularly wrong with it, but for some reason or another I couldn't concentrate to meditate. But if others can meditate in those situations, by all means go for it. As long as it isn't used as a replacement for Divine service.

I, certainly can't speak with any authority regarding what happens at one of these services, since I've never been to one and have only read one article about them. I meditate upon Scripture when I pray the rosary, minus the prayers to Mary of course.

Rosary? Honestly I can't say I know the Rosery prayers. Something I might try someday, as you said without the prayers to Mary.

Edit: Just looked up Rosary prayers. . . it seems like the majority of it is dedicated to Mary. . . . hmm

 

[Zecryphon]

I went to a Taize service at an LCMS church maybe 2 years ago. Wasn't a replacement for Sunday Divine service. I think it was a mid-week Lenten service or something like that.

I have to say, I don't think it was my thing. Nothing I found particularly wrong with it, but for some reason or another I couldn't concentrate to meditate. But if others can meditate in those situations, by all means go for it. As long as it isn't used as a replacement for Divine service.

Rosary? Honestly I can't say I know the Rosery prayers. Something I might try someday, as you said without the prayers to Mary.

Edit: Just looked up Rosary prayers. . . it seems like the majority of it is dedicated to Mary. . . . hmm

Yeah, not a lot of Lutherans do pray the Rosary. But I find that, I'd say with the exception of asking for Mary to pray for us at our hour of death thing, the rest is perfectly Scriptural. Martin Chemnitz, I believe had a rosary. I don't know Martin Luther's exact stance on them. I see it as Adiaphora, as long as it's used as a tool to focus your prayer life and does not become an object of worship or you believe it has supernatural powers. I have one, I bought at a Catholic bookstore that I try to use every day. Now believe me, it wasn't easy finding a rosary at a Catholic book store that didn't have a Mary medal on it. They even asked me why I wanted one without the Marian medal, since Luther had such a great respect of Mary. I told them I was Lutheran and wanted one with a Christ medal if they had one.

It really only takes a half hour to go through the whole thing. It's also less expensive than buying the Treasury of Daily Prayer, if money is tight. I find it to be a wonderful devotional. I can send you some links if you're interested. I had to print out the prayers yesterday as I couldn't find my old copy. So I know where are the links are.

In response to the edit to your post, here are some links that may make you more comfortable:

http://www.giftsofaith.com/Files/lutheranrosary.pdf

Here's another one, that uses a differently assembled rosary to pray Luther's Small Catechism during Lent. This was put out by the ELCA, if I'm not mistaken. Instead of ten beads to each decade, they use seven.

http://r-o-s-e.org/Strands-of-Pebbles/Variety%20of%20Modalities%20and%20Prayers/Lutheran%20Rosary%20~aka~%20Pearls%20of%20Life.pdf

It's odd that you say the majority of the prayers are dedicated to Mary. Each of the 5 decades focuses on a certain mystery from Scripture. Which mysteries you meditate upon will vary depending upon which day of the week it is. I have a list of mysteries too, if you're interested in that. I'm not saying we should all pray the rosary, but I do find it to be a good way to get a daily prayer life started if you're having trouble doing so. Plus you're reading and meditating upon Scripture too, so it's a win-win, imo.

 

[Luther073082]

Yeah, not a lot of Lutherans do pray the Rosary. But I find that, I'd say with the exception of asking for Mary to pray for us at our hour of death thing, the rest is perfectly Scriptural. Martin Chemnitz, I believe had a rosary. I don't know Martin Luther's exact stance on them. To me it's an issue of Adiaphora, as long as it's used as a tool to focus your prayer life and does not become an object of worship or you believe it has supernatural powers. I have one, I bought at a Catholic bookstore that I try to use every day. It really only takes a half hour to go through the whole thing. I find it to be a wonderful devotional. I can send you some links if you're interested.

Do they have any prayers to replace the Hail Mary's in it?

 

[Zecryphon]

Do they have any prayers to replace the Hail Mary's in it?

Yes. Here let me show you.

1. Kiss the crucifix (opt.); Holding the crucifix, say the Invocation and make the sign of the cross;
Holding the crucifix, say the Apostles Creed
2. Holding the first bead, say the Our Father
3. On each of the next three beads, say the Jesus Prayer
4. On the chain, say the Doxology
5. On the large bead, say the Our Father and reflect on the first mystery
6. On each of the next ten beads, say the Jesus Prayer, reflecting on the first mystery
7. Holding the chain, say the Doxology
Repeat steps 5-7 for each mystery, moving around the rosary
8. Holding the medal, say any prayer from the heart, the pre-Trent Hail Mary, part of the
Magnificat, or Martin Luther’s evangelical praise of the Mother of God
9. Holding the crucifix, end with the Invocation and make the sign of the cross; kiss the crucifix
(opt.)

Prayers in English


Invocation
​

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Apostles Creed
​

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin
Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right
hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the
resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

Our Father
​

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come, thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we
forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

Jesus Prayer
​

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me, a sinner.

Doxology
​

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit; as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

Pre-Trent Hail Mary
​

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus Christ. Amen.

Part of the Magnificat
​

My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Evangelical praise of the Mother of God
​

O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example.

I usually pray the Pre-Trent Hail Mary.

 

[DaRev]

and the LCMS was wrong to go down the path it did.

Ummm... what path is this?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Ummm... what path is this?

The one that goldbeach keeps referring to. Should've been more clear on that. He keeps talking about some movement in reference to Taize services in the LCMS.

For the record, and clarification, it probably wasn't the LCMS per se that "went down that path" and I doubt the situation was as bad as is being represented.

Sorry about that. :o

 

[DaRev]

I don't believe that the "Pre-Trent Hail Mary" is appropriate. It is still a prayer directed at someone other than God, which is idolatry. The phrase "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" is based upon Scripture (Luke 1:28), it's not intended to be prayed.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I don't believe that the "Pre-Trent Hail Mary" is appropriate. It is still a prayer directed at someone other than God, which is idolatry. The phrase "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" is based upon Scripture (Luke 1:28), it's not intended to be prayed.

Would the word "hail" also have a different connotation than what we view it with these days?

Like, if I was walking down a dusty street in Jerusalem and I said "hail, friend, God is with thee!" as a greeting, I would hope that people wouldn't be praying to my friend many moons later.

I know hail to be greeting as well as an honorific term.

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't believe that the "Pre-Trent Hail Mary" is appropriate. It is still a prayer directed at someone other than God, which is idolatry. The phrase "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" is based upon Scripture (Luke 1:28), it's not intended to be prayed.

Which of the two remaining prayers would you use then? You can also use a prayer of your own if you wish. I probably should have mentioned that earlier. But I use that one specifically for the reason that it is based upon the Scripture you have cited. I didn't know there were portions of God's written word that we are not to pray. Can you list some others?

 

[Luther073082]

I don't believe that the "Pre-Trent Hail Mary" is appropriate. It is still a prayer directed at someone other than God, which is idolatry. The phrase "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" is based upon Scripture (Luke 1:28), it's not intended to be prayed.

Would that standard be also applied to the Evangelical praise of the Mother of God. Because it looks to be a prayer as well even though its titled as a "praise."

Would it not be appropriate to perhaps insert Martin Luther's morning or evening prayer here? Especially if you are praying it when you first get up or right before bed? Just a thought.

I didn't know there were portions of God's written word that we are not to pray. Can you list some others?

The problem is that portion of scritpure was the Angel talking to Mary. If we start saying it like that, then for all intents and purposes we are praying to and speaking to Mary. There is no basis in scripture to belive that prayers to anyone other then God are even heard, much less appropriate.