Taize service?

[Zecryphon]

Would that standard be also applied to the Evangelical praise of the Mother of God. Because it looks to be a prayer as well even though its titled as a "praise."

Would it not be appropriate to perhaps insert Martin Luther's morning or evening prayer here? Especially if you are praying it when you first get up or right before bed? Just a thought.

The problem is that portion of scritpure was the Angel talking to Mary. If we start saying it like that, then for all intents and purposes we are praying to and speaking to Mary. There is no basis in scripture to belive that prayers to anyone other then God are even heard, much less appropriate.

You are indeed correct. So I guess from now on, I'll substitute another prayer there, one of my own, something that is weighing heavily on my heart or one of thanksgiving. You are free to do the same, if you choose to use prayer beads in your daily life.

 

[Tangible]

There is quite a bit of info available on Taizé out there on the interwebs. They even have a website of their own.

The Taizé Community

One other thing I noticed about them is that they vigorously avoid confession of any doctrine that would divide the various kinds of Christians that would be otherwise comfortable with a liturgical approach to worship. They are very open about the fact that RCC, Lutherans of various stripes, Anglicans, and other liturgical Christians all can and do participate in their services.

 

[DaRev]

Would that standard be also applied to the Evangelical praise of the Mother of God. Because it looks to be a prayer as well even though its titled as a "praise."

Who is it directed to?

 

[Zecryphon]

I was looking at the Pre-Trent Hail Mary and perhaps you could change it, if you feel that by saying:


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ.

What if we said instead:

"Dear Lord, blessed is Mary among women and blessed is the fruit of her womb, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen." Would this be appropriate?

 

[DaRev]

I was looking at the Pre-Trent Hail Mary and perhaps you could change it, if you feel that by saying:


Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ.

What if we said instead:

"Dear Lord, blessed is Mary among women and blessed is the fruit of her womb, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen." Would this be appropriate?

How about this:

"O God, we give You thanks for Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, whom You have blessed among women."

Or something along that line anyway.

 

[Bryne]

I use the Pre-Trent Hail Mary, but when I say it, I always look at it as quoting scripture and not a prayer, per se. Plus...I don't use it for the decades...for that I use the Jesus Prayer...so I am not saying it over and over again.

 

[Zecryphon]

Yeah, I use the Jesus prayer for the decades, while reflecting upon a mystery. The Mary prayer is only an issue when you get to the medal or center of the rosary.

 

[Zecryphon]

How about this:

"O God, we give You thanks for Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, whom You have blessed among women."

Or something along that line anyway.

Yeah, you could use something along those lines, sure. But how is that preferable or better than what I had come up with?

 

[Bryne]

I don't think of the Apostle's Creed as a prayer when I recite that, either...it is a statement of faith.

But...I do see where where DaRev is coming from.

 

[goldbeach]

The one that goldbeach keeps referring to. Should've been more clear on that. He keeps talking about some movement in reference to Taize services in the LCMS.

For the record, and clarification, it probably wasn't the LCMS per se that "went down that path" and I doubt the situation was as bad as is being represented.

Sorry about that. :o

I didn't say it was part of the LCMS. It's was a movement within the LCMS (RIM). I also participated in the "prayer and praise" service which had the same format as Taize. I was clear about it since I was familiar with it. If you don't want to take the in fomation in the spirit it was intended, then don't.

 

[DaRev]

Yeah, you could use something along those lines, sure. But how is that preferable or better than what I had come up with?

I just made it a prayer of thanksgiving. Our prayers concerning any saint are mainly prayers of thanksgiving.

 

[Zecryphon]

I just made it a prayer of thanksgiving. Our prayers concerning any saint are mainly prayers of thanksgiving.

Okay.

 

[OhioMom66]

Thank you all for responding. The other topics are very interesting too!

Here is what is on this LCMS church's website:

Sunday Worship:
Taize' liturgy 8:00 AM
Sunday School 9:30 AM
Hymnal (LSB) (Lutheran Service Book) liturgy 10:30AM

From this I am assuming they do this Taize service each week.

I guess what I want to know is, is this in and of itself supposed to give me insight into this particular church? Should I think this church is more liberal because of this? Does this raise any red flags with any of you or would you think this was in the range of "normal"? I was considering visiting this church, but I do not want to be lead down the wrong path. I want a conservative, doctrinally sound church.

I know I need to do more reading and studying of my own on the topic, but I would love to know your "gut" reaction to this...turn on, turn off, or neutral.

Blessings, Beth

(I may not respond in a timely manner as I am out of town visiting my son.)

 

[alexnbethmom]

honestly, beth? my gut reaction is "turn off" - i'm leery of any "meditating" like that, for good reason. i would, personally, not attend a church that offered that.

but that's just me. i've been known to be wrong. not the first time, won't be the last....

 

[goldbeach]

Thank you all for responding. The other topics are very interesting too!

Here is what is on this LCMS church's website:

Sunday Worship:
Taize' liturgy 8:00 AM
Sunday School 9:30 AM
Hymnal (LSB) (Lutheran Service Book) liturgy 10:30AM

From this I am assuming they do this Taize service each week.

I guess what I want to know is, is this in and of itself supposed to give me insight into this particular church? Should I think this church is more liberal because of this? Does this raise any red flags with any of you or would you think this was in the range of "normal"? I was considering visiting this church, but I do not want to be lead down the wrong path. I want a conservative, doctrinally sound church.

I know I need to do more reading and studying of my own on the topic, but I would love to know your "gut" reaction to this...turn on, turn off, or neutral.

Blessings, Beth

(I may not respond in a timely manner as I am out of town visiting my son.)

No "gut" to it. There has been two personal experiences and heresay that have given you info on it. It's not good to speculate on something that could be insidious.......or not. If there is no info available here then you would have to research it out elsewhere. Only facts will give you a qualified decision.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I had not heard of Taize worship until this thread. I did find this review by a WELS Pastor which might help you Ohiomom: http://www.charis.wlc.edu/publications/charis_winter05/taize.pdf

 

[seajoy]

I had not heard of Taize worship until this thread. I did find this review by a WELS Pastor which might help you Ohiomom: http://www.charis.wlc.edu/publications/charis_winter05/taize.pdf

I read most of it. It looks like if Taize is used in the WELS, it has to be changed quite a bit so it almost does not resemble a Taize service (which is fine by me). Anyway - it's good that the WELS is picking it apart so much. I like the checks and balances of my synod.

 

[OhioMom66]

I had not heard of Taize worship until this thread. I did find this review by a WELS Pastor which might help you Ohiomom:

Thank you for that link...yes, it was very helpful.

Blessings, Beth

 

[goldbeach]

And some people in WELS think this type of worship/meditation is perfectly acceptable? This is only a part of the Taize agenda. Really scary.

http://www.charis.wlc.edu/publications/charis_winter05/taize.pdf

"The best words to describe Taize worship are "disciplined freedom."ii The idea is based on repetitive simplicity: simple music, simple texts played over and over. The repetition, with no firm beginning and no firm end, allows the individual worshiper to at one time be an integral part of the community while at the same time being individually connected to God. The worship is meant to avoid doctrinal differences. Taize, through its liturgical shape, seeks to establish an ecumenical form of worship that emphasizes the common goals of the Christian community over questions of dogma."

"In other words, distinctive denominational confessions are cast by the wayside. There will be nothing in the liturgy that distinctly announces, for instance, the vicarious atonement of Christ, the Real Presence in the Lord’s Supper, original and actual sin, the nature of Christ, the Trinity, and so on. What is left is something that no denomination can say is against its confession and yet lacks anything that would promote the distinctness of its confession."​

"What you believe about the nature of Scripture (a question of denominational doctrine, in their view) is not as important. The problem with Taize, in both its historical roots and theological convictions, is that it seeks to break down confessional convictions.
No longer are the means of grace, or the means by which God has promised to communicate himself to us, center stage. Instead, we attempt to find the Lord through personal contemplation. With this as the guiding principle of liturgical shape, then the pattern of worship will be to induce a contemplative mood "

 

[Tangible]

simple music, simple texts played over and over. The repetition, with no firm beginning and no firm end, allows the individual worshiper to at one time be an integral part of the community while at the same time being individually connected to God.

aka Mysticism.

There really isn't a lick of difference between that and the most mystical of contemporary worship music, except that the simple texts tend to be taken from a liturgical tradition and the music is orchestral instead of electronic.

The there's the whole contemplative prayer thing, "centering prayers," lectio divina and such which are problematic at best, and which originated in a mystical form of Roman Catholicism.