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Tabernacle of David

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Jul 2, 2014.

  1. daq

    daq Messianic

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    And that passage speaks of the daughter of Zion which is generally equated with the daughter of Jerusalem, (i.e. Zechariah 9:9 which is stated to have been fulfilled in Matthew 21:4-5). The daughter of Zion is herein pictured as a wandering bird cast out of her nest:

    Isaiah 16:1-5
    1. Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
    2. For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
    3. Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
    4. Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
    5. And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.


    As likewise Paul says, "Jerusalem of above", the true covenant mother of us, (Galatians 4:24-26) and as the author of Hebrews says, the holy mountain of Elohim which cannot be touched with hands, the holy city of the Living One, (Hebrews 12:18-24) and as Yeshua says, "The city of the Great King", (the Father).

    David also says this of holy mount Zion:

    Psalms 2 (Re: Acts 4:25-31)
    1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    2. The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
    3. Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    4. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    5. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    6. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    7. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.
    8. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    9. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
    10. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    11. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    12. Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    Revelation 2:26-27
    26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    Revelation 3:21
    21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


    As Jeremiah 3:17 states; the throne of the Father is now Jerusalem, (of above). :)
     
  2. sevengreenbeans

    sevengreenbeans Remember Yosef

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    I understand that. Metatron is the one with sword drawn (as Joshua approaches) and said...

    Joshua 5:14 And he said: 'Nay, but I am captain of the host of the L-RD; I am now come.' And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him: 'What says my lord unto his servant?'
    15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua: 'Put off your shoe from off your foot; for the place where you stand is holy.' And Joshua did so.


    The Tabernacle never existed at Jerusalem. When the interaction above takes place, they have crossed the Jordan, completed Passover, and it was Unleavened Bread.

    Joshua is "an angel" (messenger/prophet), Metatron is "Mine angel" (captain of the L-RD's host). Joshua brought the Israelites to the place YHWH prepared as the Holy of Holies from the foundation of the earth. Upon reaching the place of the Holy of Holies, where the pilgrimage feasts are to take place, they are met by Metatron, who goes before Joshua and his army in battle against the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites.

    Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an angel before you, to keep you by the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
    21 Take heed of him, and listen to his voice; be not rebellious against him; for he will not pardon your transgression; for My name is in him.
    22 But if you shall indeed listen to his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy to your enemies, and an adversary to your adversaries.
    23 For Mine angel shall go before you, and bring you in to the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Canaanite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; and I will cut them off. (To go before them in battle.)


    Joshua 1:16 And they answered Joshua, saying: 'All that you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go.
    17 According as we listened to Moses in all things, so will we listen to you; only the L-RD your G-d be with you, as He was with Moses.
    18 Whoever he be that shall rebel against your command, and shall not listen to your words in all that you command him, he shall be put to death; only be strong and of good courage.'

    Joshua 3:7 And the L-RD said to Joshua: 'This day will I begin to magnify you in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with you.

    Joshua 3:10 And Joshua said: 'Hereby you shall know that the living G-d is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Hivite, and the Perizzite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Jebusite.
     
  3. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    I loved my Kabbalistic studies...especially the Sefer Yitzerah...but Kabbalah is not the word of God. Metatron is not Tanakh. When Mosheh asks Him "What is your shem?" The Angel of the LORD (Exodus 3) identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob...the "I Am"...thus the Angel of the LORD IS YHVH manifest (hence the Word, the Glory, He who shakan's in the Tabernacle)...Let the God's word define such things not later philosophers and mystics.
     
  4. sevengreenbeans

    sevengreenbeans Remember Yosef

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    I also understand what you are saying, pshun2404. Notice I used the name only to distinguish "Mine angel" (messenger/representative) from "an angel" (messenger/prophet), because the person I was responding to (chunkofcoal) made reference to a Rabbinical reference about Exodus 23.

    I was defining the verse solely using the word of G-d, and showing how it ties to Joshua and the captain of the host of YHWH. *See all previous posts, not just those with the name "Metatron" in them. :)

    (Do you set a place and open the door for Elijah? Do you sing Lecha Dodi? Do you sing Shalom Aleichem? All this and more is Kabbalistic.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  5. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Interesting point about "an angel" and "mine angel". But the Rabbis who believe the angel to be Metatron point out the phrase "My name is in him". I guess we have to figure out if God's name was in Joshua.
     
  6. daq

    daq Messianic

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    That is what is nice about simply believing the clear emphatic statements of Yeshua. I can simply state that it is Eliyahu from what is written and move on without debating those who do not wish to believe the Master-Teacher. :)
     
  7. sevengreenbeans

    sevengreenbeans Remember Yosef

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    I am not stating they (Metatron and Joshua) are one and the same.

    I am saying the text of Exodus 23 is describing two messengers, compare Joshua 5 and it is there the two messengers of Exodus 23 are carrying out what was spoken by YHWH in Exodus 23.

    (Exodus 23:20-22 and Joshua 1:18 and Joshua 5) Joshua brought the Israelites to the place YHWH prepared and the captain of the host of YHWH, who is identified in some circles as Metatron, met them at the place YHWH prepared, in order to lead them in battle against the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, etc. (Exodus 23:23 and Joshua 3:10, 5:14 and the taking of Jericho immediately follows.)

    The spiritual and the physical working together, as YHWH said they would in Exodus 23.

    As for G-d's name being in Joshua...I believe it's the same thing as having His Spirit upon (or in) him. Numbers 27:18, Deuteronomy 34:9, Joshua 1:17, Joshua 3:7.
     
  8. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    The link you provided says:

    Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar, Parshah 1, Part 2
    “In the exposition of the text, And the Lord spoke unto Moshe in the wilderness of Sinai (Bamidbar / Numbers 1:1) … And there was no water for the congregation (Bamidbar / Numbers 20:2). How was the well constructed? It was rock-shaped like a kind of bee-hive, and wherever they journeyed it rolled along and came with them. When the standards under which the tribes of journeyed halted and the tabernacle was setup, that same rock would come and settle down in the court of the Tent of Meeting and the princes would come and stand upon it and say, Rise up, O well (Bamidbar / Numbers 21:17), and it would rise.” (שם במדבר כ׳) ולא היהמים לעדה,והיאך היתה הבאר עשויה סלע כמין כוורת היתה ומתגלגלת ובאת עמהם במסעות וכיון שהיו הדגלים חונים והמשכן עומד היה אותו הסלע בא ויושב לו בחצר אהל מועד והנשיאים באים ועומדים על גביו ואומרים עלי באר והיתה עולה, ואח״כ הבאתי לכם שלוים, המדבר הייתי לישראל שמא כמדבר נהגתי עמכם אלא אם ארץ מאפליה לא אני בידי הייתי מאיר לכם שנא׳ (שמות יג)
    According to the midrash, the rabbis say that when the children of Israel needed water, the Lord constructed for them a well that was shaped like a bee-hive that gave forth water and this rock followed them whereever they journeyed in the wilderness. In addition to this, the rock that gave life giving water settled down in the Ohel Moed (Tent of Meeting) and the princes of the tribes of Israel would come and stand upon it and say “Rise up O well.” The rock tabernacled with His people. In the rabbinic literature, there are other references to this same life giving rock, the children of Israel, and the wilderness. In the Targum Jonathan (Aramaic Translation) the rabbis expands upon Bamidbar / Numbers 21:19 to describe the rock or “well” that “followed” them (the children of Israel):
    - See more at: Bits of Torah Truths, Parashat Bamidbar, The New Testament as Midrash | MATSATI.COM Ministry
    Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar, Parshah 1, Part 2
    “In the exposition of the text, And the Lord spoke unto Moshe in the wilderness of Sinai (Bamidbar / Numbers 1:1) … And there was no water for the congregation (Bamidbar / Numbers 20:2). How was the well constructed? It was rock-shaped like a kind of bee-hive, and wherever they journeyed it rolled along and came with them. When the standards under which the tribes of journeyed halted and the tabernacle was setup, that same rock would come and settle down in the court of the Tent of Meeting and the princes would come and stand upon it and say, Rise up, O well (Bamidbar / Numbers 21:17), and it would rise.” (שם במדבר כ׳) ולא היהמים לעדה,והיאך היתה הבאר עשויה סלע כמין כוורת היתה ומתגלגלת ובאת עמהם במסעות וכיון שהיו הדגלים חונים והמשכן עומד היה אותו הסלע בא ויושב לו בחצר אהל מועד והנשיאים באים ועומדים על גביו ואומרים עלי באר והיתה עולה, ואח״כ הבאתי לכם שלוים, המדבר הייתי לישראל שמא כמדבר נהגתי עמכם אלא אם ארץ מאפליה לא אני בידי הייתי מאיר לכם שנא׳ (שמות יג)

    According to the midrash, the rabbis say that when the children of Israel needed water, the Lord constructed for them a well that was shaped like a bee-hive that gave forth water and this rock followed them whereever they journeyed in the wilderness. In addition to this, the rock that gave life giving water settled down in the Ohel Moed (Tent of Meeting) and the princes of the tribes of Israel would come and stand upon it and say “Rise up O well.” The rock tabernacled with His people. In the rabbinic literature, there are other references to this same life giving rock, the children of Israel, and the wilderness.

    According to the Tosefta, this tradition of the rock is related in the following way:

    “It was likewise with the well that was with the children of Israel in the wilderness, it [the well] was like a rock that was full of holes like a sieve from which water trickled and arose as from the opening of a flask. It [the rock-well] ascended with them to the top of the hills and descended with them into the valleys; wherever Israel tarried there it tarried over against the entrance to the tabernacle”

    ...

    Based upon these rabbinic references, there appears to be a Midrashic tradition that was captured in the translation of the Targums and of the Talmud. The idea of a rock that gave forth life giving waters, that followed Israel in the wilderness. While studying the Apostolic Writings, the Apostle Paul utilizes the rabbinic midrash while speaking to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4. Because of this midrashic explanation of the book of Numbers, the first Century people would have been very familiar with the parable of the rock that followed Israel giving them life.


    Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar, Parshah 1, Part 2
    “In the exposition of the text, And the Lord spoke unto Moshe in the wilderness of Sinai (Bamidbar / Numbers 1:1) … And there was no water for the congregation (Bamidbar / Numbers 20:2). How was the well constructed? It was rock-shaped like a kind of bee-hive, and wherever they journeyed it rolled along and came with them. When the standards under which the tribes of journeyed halted and the tabernacle was setup, that same rock would come and settle down in the court of the Tent of Meeting and the princes would come and stand upon it and say, Rise up, O well (Bamidbar / Numbers 21:17), and it would rise.” (שם במדבר כ׳) ולא היהמים לעדה,והיאך היתה הבאר עשויה סלע כמין כוורת היתה ומתגלגלת ובאת עמהם במסעות וכיון שהיו הדגלים חונים והמשכן עומד היה אותו הסלע בא ויושב לו בחצר אהל מועד והנשיאים באים ועומדים על גביו ואומרים עלי באר והיתה עולה, ואח״כ הבאתי לכם שלוים, המדבר הייתי לישראל שמא כמדבר נהגתי עמכם אלא אם ארץ מאפליה לא אני בידי הייתי מאיר לכם שנא׳ (שמות יג)
    According to the midrash, the rabbis say that when the children of Israel needed water, the Lord constructed for them a well that was shaped like a bee-hive that gave forth water and this rock followed them whereever they journeyed in the wilderness. In addition to this, the rock that gave life giving water settled down in the Ohel Moed (Tent of Meeting) and the princes of the tribes of Israel would come and stand upon it and say “Rise up O well.” The rock tabernacled with His people. In the rabbinic literature, there are other references to this same life giving rock, the children of Israel, and the wilderness. In the Targum Jonathan (Aramaic Translation) the rabbis expands upon Bamidbar / Numbers 21:19 to describe the rock or “well” that “followed” them (the children of Israel):
    - See more at: Bits of Torah Truths, Parashat Bamidbar, The New Testament as Midrash | MATSATI.COM Ministry
     
  9. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Since this sort of thing has suddenly become a hot topic as of late I will simply say that my point was that there are two Rocks; HaTsur, (Exodus 17:6) and HaCela`, (Numbers 20:8). The one is the bedrock while the other is upon the bedrock. The Father is the bedrock. It is possible that Moshe thought the Cela` represented only the children of Yisrael, (which it does but also Messiah) and therefore spoke "inadvisedly" when he called them "rebels" just before he smote the Cela, (Psalm 106:33 says of Moshe that "they provoked his spirit so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips" and that was the reason he was not allowed to bring the congregation into the land). The lesson for me was that the Father is in Messiah, the Father is in the children of Yisrael, the Father is in the congregation. The Cela as Messiah gives forth the honey in Deuteronomy 32:13 and, thus, the tradition of the bee-hive shaped rolling rock fits the Cela "hand in glove". :)
     
  10. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    daq - thanks for pointing out Deut. 32:13 - I have been wondering why the rock would be shaped like a beehive! :)

    From what I understand the water from the rock ceased after the death of Miriam; Miriam died just before Passover. So I kind of wonder if the marriage at Cana (John 2) might have been on the anniversary of Miriam's death and maybe Yeshua was making a point when He changed the water into wine.


    Just speculating...
    :cool:
     
  11. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Well it is interesting that Bee in Hebrew (DBWRH) is similar to the word for Word (DBR), and "the Word" (HDBR) is a title for Yeshua.
     
  12. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    I'm not disagreeing with the traditional material from your link, I just thought it was interesting enough to merit being quoted here.
     
  13. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Yea, I know you probably would not have been objecting, (and, yes, thank you for posting the pertinent comments). That particular comment was not directed at you or anyone else personally but just is what it is currently. :)


    You're welcome; freely have I received and, well, you know the rest. :)
    So you like to speculate eh? Ok, take this with two of three grains of salt:

    Every person is likened to a cistern:

    Jeremiah 2:12-14
    12. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.
    13. For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
    14. Is Israel a servant? is he a homeborn slave? why is he spoiled?

    "The third day there were nuptials, in Kana of the Galil, and the mother of Yeshua was there. Moreover Yeshua and his talmidim were also called to the nuptials. And falling short of wine the mother of Yeshua says to him; They have no wine! And Yeshua says unto her; What is it to me and to you, woman? mine hour is not yet come, (for this is the greatest of all temptations which will come in the morning of Golgotha). Says the mother of him to the servants; Whatsoever he tells you to do, that do. Moreover there were standing thereby six stone cisterns, after the manner of the purification rites of the Yehudim, containing two of three baths apiece, (they held three baths but only two baths were left in each cistern). Says to them Yeshua; Fill the cisterns with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he says unto them; Draw out now, and bare to the governor of the feast. And they bare it. But when the governor of the feast had tasted the water having become wine, and knew not whence it was, (but the servants which drew the water knew) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, and said unto him; Every man at the beginning sets forth the good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but you have kept the good wine until now!" (Yochanan 2:1-10).

    The cistern pictured below may be slightly larger on the inside but it is close enough to the type which is likely spoken of in the Kana miracle, (there was also a similar water-jar/cistern excavated from Kana which is now on display and can easily be found with a quick image search). Picture a thirty gallon oak wine barrel and this is about the amount of space inside the six stone cisterns:

    [​IMG]

    We all know that wine is symbolic of the covenants. The above concerns the wash water of the purification rites of the Jews. There are six water jars or cisterns, (of the kind which are above ground but the typology is the same). Each cistern has two of three firkins left remaining in it, (the firkin is accepted as having been equal to the bath which is known to be about 9 gallons). Three firkins or baths of water are approximately 27 to 30 gallons of water. Thus what remains in the six stone cisterns are twelve baths of the wash water of the purification rites of the Jews. However Yeshua does not command that the cisterns first be emptied of the wash water of the purification rites before filling them to the brims with fresh water. Why was the wash water of the purification rites of the Jews not emptied from the cisterns before the fresh water was added if the covenants are not to be "mixed" as the majority of the mainstream shepherds proclaim? The fresh water is mixed in with the water of washing of the purification rites of the Jews. The covenants are thus mixed together despite the teachings of the modern shepherds who tell us that mixing the covenants is error.

    1) Six is the number of creation and the number of man.
    2) Two baths in each cistern are twelve baths of the purification rites, (12 Tribes).
    3) Stone cisterns represent unregenerate hardened hearts of stone in man.
    4) The governor of the feast proclaims the BEST WINE was saved for last.
    5) The best wine only comes through the "Old Covenant" re-interpreted with the Testimony of Yeshua.

    Lukas 5:37-39
    37. And no man puts new wine into old wineskins; else the new wine will burst the wineskins, and be spilled, and the wineskins will perish.
    38. But new wine must be put into new wineskins; and both are preserved.
    39. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better!

    Mattityahu 13:51-52
    51. Yeshua says unto them, Have you understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Master.
    52. Then says he to them; Therefore every scribe which is discipled into the kingdom of the heavens is likened to a man that is an householder which brings forth out of his thesauros-treasury things new and old.


    The ribcage or "cavity-cistern" of the man is likewise shaped like a bee hive: :D

    Yochanan 7:37-39
    37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Yeshua stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink.
    38. Him faithfully-trusting into me, as the scripture hath said, Rivers out of his cavity shall be flowing with living waters!
    39. But this he spoke concerning the Spirit, which them faithfully-trusting into him were about to receive: for not yet was the Spirit, (Testimony of Yeshua) because Yeshua not yet was glorified.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  14. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Interesting! I think I'll have to go study up on that connection! :)
     
  15. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    I'll speculate with you, though we might not agree...:)

    I hadn't thought about the waters in the cisterns being mixed. I think I assumed the cisterns were empty and the writer was just stating how much they held. BUT - you are saying the fresh water was added to the water already there.
    The waters may have been mixed, but they were changed into wine. And it doesn't sound like it's a good idea to mix water with wine -

    Isa 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:



    I've seriously got to go read up about bees! lol!

    BUT (again!) Yeshua said "living waters". Living waters are spring waters.
    (I actually drink water from a spring and it's interesting to see how it works - the water is from deep within the mountain, and there are numerous springs that flow out the side of the mountain, all from the same source.)

    I believe Yeshua's springs flowing with "living waters" are these -

    Psa 87:7 As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.
     
  16. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Problem is that is not what the text says; they did not mix water with wine but rather they mixed the water of the purification rites of the Jews with the fresh water that Messiah commanded them to use to fill up the cisterns to the brims. The water that Messiah gives is living waters, (perhaps John 4 is specifically clarifying the meaning of this first miracle). Perhaps it might help to look at this like a recipe:

    1) Take one cistern having a capacity to hold three baths.
    2) Have two baths, (2/3 full) of the water of the purification rites of the Jews in the cistern.
    3) Fill the remainder of the cistern to the lip, (1/3) with the Testimony of Yeshua, (living waters).
    4) Seal with Torah and Prophets and let stand the whole, (maybe for 1260 days?).
    5) This is the recipe for the best wine! :D

    [​IMG]

    And the rim rings of the Ophaniym were high, and lifted up, and fearfully dreadful round about the circle, and the Glory of Adonay filled the temple. Seraphim stood from above for him: Six wings, six wings, from the backbone to the one! And cried this unto that, saying, Holy, holy, holy, YHWH Tsabaoth! All the earth is full of his Glory! And the cubit-posts of the bason were shaken from the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then came a mal'ak, and wakened me, like a man that is awakened from his sleep. And he said unto me, What did you see? And I said: Watching I was, and lo, the throne of Adonay, high and lifted up. And Seraphim standing from above for him: six wings this, six wings that, from the backbone to the one. And he answered, saying, Seraphim above and Cherubim below from the backbone to the Lamp; four wings a Cherub from his four bones in the back: four wings this, four wings that; four wings, four wings, and the four of them be one; for fearfully and wonderfully made is the man!
     
  17. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

    +431
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Thought I'd clarify - you were the one who said the water was mixed and believed it to symbolize the mixing of the two covenants. I pointed out that the water was changed into wine. If I understand your view "water+ water= wine".

    But I think if the liquids symbolize the covenants then the water is the first, and the wine the second.

    I like your recipe, though! :D

    And interesting picture of a ribcage. It does look a bit like a beehive!
     
  18. daq

    daq Messianic

    +282
    Non-Denom
    Private
    If you lift up your eyes closed and look intently you may also "see" a special kind of seven lamp menorah which gives light over-upon the heart. The seventh full rib at the bottom has "three friends", (like Job). Not a bone shall be broken, (though one side was pierced). :)
     
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