Ta'anit B'Khorim

I could be wrong, I don't always comprehend fully after the first read but from what I gathered it was about any tractate from the Gemara or books from the Tanakh. And the completion of one of these would be reason for such a siyum. And to be able to have such a siyum to fall on days where a called fast could be put aside because of the celebration.

pat34lee said:

Let's start with the parts of the talmud that are commentaries on the Tanakh and life in general. These would be the areas a scholar would find most helpful, correct? How much of that is reported to come from before the 1st century AD? Before the 3rd century? And how much of the total talmud is it?

A large part of the Tanakh is setting up the rules and traditions that the Jews were to live by, and is not applicable to messianics. How much of the talmud is that?

Parts of the talmud are specifically anti-gentile, anti-Christian, or anti-Yeshua. How much of the talmud comprises these views?

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Shalom Pat,

The notion that nothing was written prior to the first century is a little naive, don't you think? The Jews were meticulous record keepers. Try to think of Talmud and in fact, the entirety of the ancient written works of the Jews as a compilation that encompasses not only scripture, but all aspects of government and daily life.

In the search for context, none of the ancient works of the Jews should be off limits. However, all of it should be read with a discerning eye and the help of others that have more than a rudimentary understanding of them.

I am going to return to my forensics example for a moment. Let's say that I am an investigator (which I am, just not a criminal investigator). In the course of an investigation of a radical group with views very much different than my own, I come across their hidden manifesto. It is sent to the lab where various forensic specialists pour over it in detail. They can determine who handled it from fingerprints and DNA. From trace analysis of the prints, they determine what was on the hands of those that touched it, yielding more information. Profilers try to determine the personality and mental state of the authors, while linguistic experts and computer programs try to determine what other works they may also have written. They identify catch phrases, buzz words and idioms that are only defined in this document, greatly assisting in the understanding of the interpersonal communication of this very closed society.

In time, these reports land on my desk. They were sent to me to assist me in apprehending these individuals. I also have information about these peoples activities, habits and known associates. But my expertise is different from the 'lab rats'. I too can determine a great many things about these individuals and how they conform to society and the law. Part of my job is to determine their behavior as it applies on the 'street level'. And now that I know the hidden meaning of some of their words and phrases, I get a better feeling for their motivations and reactions to everyday stimuli. By taking all of this information into account, I can extrapolate information I might never have guessed, that may help me in my task of 'getting it and getting them'.

I see my supervisor crossing the noisy squad room and sing out with my hand in the air, 'Hey, Lieutenant Lee, I need a copy of the manifesto to read.'
The squad room falls silent. Everyone looks away, as if they know something I don't. My boss looks at his hands first and shifts his stance to partially sit on the desk he had been standing next to and slowly replies, "Parts of the hidden manifesto of this radical group of extremists are specifically anti-human, anti-social, or anti-law enforcement. I don't think that you should read it."

Whoa! Shades of Jack Nicholson saying, "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth".

Pat, you are right to be cautious. Some people are not mature enough in their faith to read anything other than scripture and the carefully edited contextual teachings of others. But I am not young in my beliefs or weak in my faith. I can read things critical of the truth and not be shaken, but I confess that when I do it grieves me in my spirit. So for your warning I would say, thank you for your concern.

Blessings,

Abba loves all His kids, and will continue to protect them even if they insist on staying on the bottle, in diapers and on all fours. But the infant will never experience the joy that Abba has for him if he refuses to take those very scary steps of maturation. It's up to each infant how mature he will allow himself to grow.

talmidim said:

Shalom Pat,

The notion that nothing was written prior to the first century is a little naive, don't you think? The Jews were meticulous record keepers. Try to think of Talmud and in fact, the entirety of the ancient written works of the Jews as a compilation that encompasses not only scripture, but all aspects of government and daily life.

In the search for context, none of the ancient works of the Jews should be off limits. However, all of it should be read with a discerning eye and the help of others that have more than a rudimentary understanding of them.

I am going to return to my forensics example for a moment.

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Very little of what is in the mulitple volumes of talmud goes back before the time of Yeshua, and none can be proven to be older than about 300 BC.

One flaw, if I'm reading your story correctly. The handbook and those who put it out are not important to your case. You only want to use information from that book to find out more about a second group. One that this group despises.

Let's try a different analogy. You want to know more about Israel since it became a state. So, naturally, you would go to those closest to Israel and ask them: the 'Palestinians', Egyptians, Syrians, etc., and expect honest answers.

Another would be finding out what the McCoys were like by asking the Hatfields.

Brother Pat,

I fear that you are not understanding me at all. Would you do me the service of answering a few questions? I will in turn attempt to clarify what I wrote to you, OK?

pat34lee said:

Very little of what is in the mulitple volumes of talmud goes back before the time of Yeshua, and none can be proven to be older than about 300 BC.

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So in your way of thinking, one of the most comprehensive historical records about Judaism, recording hundreds of years of Hebraic thinking and linguistic application, that covers the span of time prior to the advent of Messiah through the time of the split of Messianic Judaism from Rabbinic Judaism, is of no contextual value?

pat34lee said:

One flaw, if I'm reading your story correctly. The handbook and those who put it out are not important to your case. You only want to use information from that book to find out more about a second group. One that this group despises.

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I'm sorry but no. You have completely misunderstood my example. There are two groups. They are at odds. One group is investigating the other. Follow me so far?

The group being investigated has a document that exposes their innermost beliefs. It becomes available to the second group, the one that is investigating the first group. With this in mind, you should be able to understand what I was attempting to illustrate.

pat34lee said:

Let's try a different analogy. You want to know more about Israel since it became a state. So, naturally, you would go to those closest to Israel and ask them: the 'Palestinians', Egyptians, Syrians, etc., and expect honest answers.

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Pat, it's not about questioning them and expecting honest answers. Try this: You suddenly come into possession of their state secrets and diplomatic communique's; thousands of them, as they tell each other the truth about their plans against Israel. That is worth studying, don't you think?

pat34lee said:

Another would be finding out what the McCoys were like by asking the Hatfields.

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Actually, since they have so much in common, studying one WOULD reveal a lot about the other. But your right, I wouldn't necessarily trust their opinions. But since I'm not looking for opinions, it doesn't matter to me anyway.

Pat, you DO realize I don't reference Talmud to understand what they think of Y'shua, right? That's a given. I study to find out about the language, culture, politics, etc., of the very people that Y'shua came to save. I reference Talmud and other ancient Jewish writings to better understand the sayings of the Master as given to that audience.

Blessings,

It's like learning a new language. If I want to learn Spanish, I sure wouldn't go to a person born and raised in Russia who speaks Spanish only as a second or third language. I would go to a person born and raised in Spain who has spoken and studied Spanish all their life but one who is fluent in English as a second language. That's the only way to really learn a new language, imo.
As for finding out why Yeshua said something the way he did and what he meant by it and how it can be applied to me today- the best way is to find out what His contemporaries were learning, and what His people later learned. Why they think and taught what they did. Why would I go to a christian commentary to tell me what Isaiah meant when they don't even think the same way? It's much brighter to go to the people who have been studying Isaiah for the last, what?, 3000 years? I think they know their own prophet much better than any christian commentary possibly could.

yedida said:

It's like learning a new language. If I want to learn Spanish, I sure wouldn't go to a person born and raised in Russia who speaks Spanish only as a second or third language. I would go to a person born and raised in Spain who has spoken and studied Spanish all their life but one who is fluent in English as a second language. That's the only way to really learn a new language, imo.
As for finding out why Yeshua said something the way he did and what he meant by it and how it can be applied to me today- the best way is to find out what His contemporaries were learning, and what His people later learned. Why they think and taught what they did. Why would I go to a christian commentary to tell me what Isaiah meant when they don't even think the same way? It's much brighter to go to the people who have been studying Isaiah for the last, what?, 3000 years? I think they know their own prophet much better than any christian commentary possibly could.

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talmidim said:

Brother Pat,

I fear that you are not understanding me at all. Would you do me the service of answering a few questions? I will in turn attempt to clarify what I wrote to you, OK?So in your way of thinking, one of the most comprehensive historical records about Judaism, recording hundreds of years of Hebraic thinking and linguistic application, that covers the span of time prior to the advent of Messiah through the time of the split of Messianic Judaism from Rabbinic Judaism, is of no contextual value?

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There is value, and I am sure that I have benefited by some of it at least second-hand through others. It is a danger to some though, as much of it was written specifically to separate the Jews from anything that might be considered 'Christian' or cause them to accept that Yeshua was the messiah. Have you ever heard of the 18 edicts of Shammai, or the Birkat HaMinim?

talmidim said:

The group being investigated has a document that exposes their innermost beliefs. It becomes available to the second group, the one that is investigating the first group. With this in mind, you should be able to understand what I was attempting to illustrate.

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While not exact, I see what you're trying to show. What I asked earlier about when parts were written and such were to show that very little of the talmud as a whole is from early sources. The majority is from the 3rd to the 10th century or later, and there are earlier sources of information than that, many from the early church fathers.

talmidim said:

Pat, you DO realize I don't reference Talmud to understand what they think of Y'shua, right? That's a given. I study to find out about the language, culture, politics, etc., of the very people that Y'shua came to save. I reference Talmud and other ancient Jewish writings to better understand the sayings of the Master as given to that audience.

Blessings,

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I respect that scholars like to use all information available, and there is much in the talmud. But,as the Bible has a unifying message thoughout, so does the talmud, and they are not the same.

If you can't tell, I don't like writing long answers, as it takes me forever to organize my thoughts. That may make my comments sound more abrupt than they are meant to be sometimes.

pat34lee said:

*snip*​

I respect that scholars like to use all information available, and there is much in the talmud. But,as the Bible has a unifying message thoughout, so does the talmud, and they are not the same.

If you can't tell, I don't like writing long answers, as it takes me forever to organize my thoughts. That may make my comments sound more abrupt than they are meant to be sometimes.

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We actually agree on many things, including the Talmud's message about Y'shua. But like I said, I'm not really interested in their opinions about the Jewish Messiah. I just wanted you to know why I thought there was value to be found in ancient Jewish literature for the diligent student of the Word.

However, your opinion I value brother. You are correct. It is not for those that are not well founded in their faith or are still on milk.

Be Well,