I'll put it to my friend who has trained with Vasiliev. The guy is ex parachute regiment arrest and restraint instructor, so I very much doubt he goes in for pushing people over with energy!
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Systema and Orthodoxy
- Thread starter D+C
- Start date
AV1
Junior Member
Let me first say this: It is often easy to dismiss something you know nothing about...doubly so if you haven't experienced it first hand...and even more so, if you assume the things you see and hear on the internet are representative of the origins of anything, or the practice of something. This is pretty much universal in all things.
Now that that is out of the way, I will share my experience with Systema...first hand experience. I train in Systema with a guy who was one of Vladimir's first assistants in the US.
Systema is a modern name for an amalgamation of "Russian" self defense knowledge that has been passed on and developed over the history of the region. It has its origins in the Orthodox Church in the way that the Church was the center of the communities during this time period. It was not like the Orthodox priests said "lets make a martial art." Rather the parishioners passed on their knowledge for generations to protect the Church from invaders, oppressors, and evil. The Orthodox faith has played a key role in Systema formation and practice by default for these reasons alone. When communism reared its ugly head, the powers that be recognized the art as a useful tool in battle and adopted some of its practices into the Russian military. It continued to be developed in the communities and in the military. In more modern times, the elites of the Russian military (Spetsnaz) really gave it its recent incarnation, and that is what we see practiced today. The modern masters of Systema are former Spetsnaz soldiers, Rykabo being the current head internationally. He is devout Orthodox, as is Vladimir, the North America head of Systema. They take their God and their faith very seriously and consider that to be the center of all things, and are not bashful about speaking that way during training. "Everything is a gift from God" is Rykabo's favorite saying. He states that every time he hits you in training it is God teaching you something about yourself, and making you better. Systema philosophy is one of meeting aggression with a proper response. In training, its goal is to help the other man become a better person, even your enemy. Tough love as it were.
Systema is built on that idea and focuses on physical and mental relaxation, breathing, and awareness. There are no forms, kata, or specific techniques. It is difficult to relax, but that is when you are effective, and that is your goal as a student.
As far as effectiveness goes...it is. I have seen first hand what it can do, against people who know what they are doing...teachers of other martial arts, boxers, MMA fighters, bouncers, Filipino knife masters, you name it. I have a background in Kung Fu San Soo, and my instructor mops the floor with me...effortlessly.
Now that that is out of the way, I will share my experience with Systema...first hand experience. I train in Systema with a guy who was one of Vladimir's first assistants in the US.
Systema is a modern name for an amalgamation of "Russian" self defense knowledge that has been passed on and developed over the history of the region. It has its origins in the Orthodox Church in the way that the Church was the center of the communities during this time period. It was not like the Orthodox priests said "lets make a martial art." Rather the parishioners passed on their knowledge for generations to protect the Church from invaders, oppressors, and evil. The Orthodox faith has played a key role in Systema formation and practice by default for these reasons alone. When communism reared its ugly head, the powers that be recognized the art as a useful tool in battle and adopted some of its practices into the Russian military. It continued to be developed in the communities and in the military. In more modern times, the elites of the Russian military (Spetsnaz) really gave it its recent incarnation, and that is what we see practiced today. The modern masters of Systema are former Spetsnaz soldiers, Rykabo being the current head internationally. He is devout Orthodox, as is Vladimir, the North America head of Systema. They take their God and their faith very seriously and consider that to be the center of all things, and are not bashful about speaking that way during training. "Everything is a gift from God" is Rykabo's favorite saying. He states that every time he hits you in training it is God teaching you something about yourself, and making you better. Systema philosophy is one of meeting aggression with a proper response. In training, its goal is to help the other man become a better person, even your enemy. Tough love as it were.
Systema is built on that idea and focuses on physical and mental relaxation, breathing, and awareness. There are no forms, kata, or specific techniques. It is difficult to relax, but that is when you are effective, and that is your goal as a student.
As far as effectiveness goes...it is. I have seen first hand what it can do, against people who know what they are doing...teachers of other martial arts, boxers, MMA fighters, bouncers, Filipino knife masters, you name it. I have a background in Kung Fu San Soo, and my instructor mops the floor with me...effortlessly.
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AV1
Junior Member
Here is a great article by Martin Wheeler, a Brit who is an instructor in California, and a quite respected one in the Martial Arts, and personal protection communities.
[FONT="][FONT="]"A common question is: do you have to be Orthodox Christian or even religious in order to be good at Systema? The answer is no. But the concept of faith and religious philosophy in Systema is an intriguing one.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]What is the purpose of faith in Systema other than the well known health and well-being benefits? I think there are many, and they are certainly worth exploring, as the heart of the art is more than certainly rooted in religious philosophy.
To me it seems likely that the concept of Systema has been around for a very long time, a lot longer than the name Systema itself. The art we are learning today is simply too vast to have evolved from an amalgamation of ideas that have only existed since the Cold War.
Historically, it is believed that centuries ago when the ancient warriors left the Russian battlefields, some entered the churches and monasteries to atone for their battlefield experiences. Out of this mix of warrior arts and Christian philosophy, the art that is handed down to us from Mikhail Ryabko was likely born.
When I first discovered Systema, I was immediately struck by its relaxed approach to combat. The other thing that was mostly lacking in the fighting arts that I had studied, was its deep philosophy. A philosophy that not only guides your actions, but more importantly, can guide your entire life.
Despite the amount of movement explored in Systema training (which is far more than in any art I can think of) movement is only one percent of Systema training. The majority of Systema is philosophy. The way you think and feel reflects directly in how you move and interact with others.
Fear of death is the fear that rules all our fears, and studying Systema is a pathway to exploring those fears and overcoming them. In doing so, removing any doubts and obstacles as to how and when you act and react and more importantly what you feel. If you can remove the fear of death, it changes your perspective on the world.
On a professional level to see the world differently from others is a definite advantage. As a non-professional, it is no less important to remove fear, especially the ultimate fear. The fear of death. Nothing does that more effectively than religious training and the strengthening of your belief.
Watching Vladimir’s or Mikhail’s relaxed effective work, it is easy to see the benefits of their devotion. But when I think one of the biggest lessons I had in recent years about the nature of relaxation and how an untrained psyche reacts, was passed to me by Father Vladimir, the head of the Orthodox Church in Toronto.
He is casually impressive, very friendly, affable and most human of men. I always come away with deep insights into life after any conversation with him that effect me to this day. But on one occasion it was his actions that spoke volumes, more than his words.
We had just come from a beautiful service he had presided over and were having lunch with the Vasilievs family on a hot muggy summer Toronto afternoon outside of a patio restaurant. Father Vladimir was sitting opposite, sweating uncomfortably in the heat and chatting animatedly.
... A fly landed on his forehead. Walked around to his eye brow and after a while, flew away.
I was fixated by it. I know I would have reacted, flinched, brushed it away if it had landed on me. Something. But he just carried on chatting like nothing had happened. I know he knew the fly was there, I found myself wanting to reach across and brush it away. But Father Vladimir was unfazed, relaxed, and comfortable enough with his own psyche not to react to the annoying intrusion. That was very good Systema.
There is of course so much more to accepting God’s love than this, I present this is as just one very limited view point. But if considering Christian philosophy helps to interpret Systema, then maybe it will help to decipher the meaning behind Master Mikhail Ryabko’s words in this recent interview:
Question: Is Systema more defense or offensive?
MIKHAIL: If we are talking about real situations, any martial art more is defensive because first you need to survive and then attack.
Q: What is the most important quality in training and fighting?
MIKHAIL: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]“As in life in general, the main attribute should be doing everything to glorify God.
Note how in the Scriptures, our Lord calls Himself the Son of Man. Do you know why that is?
This is to emphasize that all the miracles He created were for other people, none were created for Himself. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]In one episode the Pharisees and the crowd tried to seize Him, but it was not time for His sacrifice yet. So, what He did was He walked right through the crowd and no one could lay their hands on Him. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]How did He do that if we know that He did not perform any miracles for Himself…?
His movements were so correct and pure that no miracle was needed. He just escaped.
This is an example to us of how we should work and act and fight.”[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]“Blessed are the pure in heart…” Systema allows us to attain this.
“Also, it is important to differentiate the purpose of our training – either sport or defending your country.
Sport generally breeds pride, whereas defending your loved ones, one is ready to sacrifice his life.
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
If one is ready to fight for his loved ones, he is only afraid of God and no one else and nothing else. Such a warrior becomes undefeatable.
In our training, it is therefore very important to overcome the unwanted fear and emotions. To keep up the fear of God and cleanse our heart from the needless fear, anger, pride and other feelings. We do it through breath work, strengthening/endurance exercises, natural movements and understanding ourselves.”[/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="]"A common question is: do you have to be Orthodox Christian or even religious in order to be good at Systema? The answer is no. But the concept of faith and religious philosophy in Systema is an intriguing one.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]What is the purpose of faith in Systema other than the well known health and well-being benefits? I think there are many, and they are certainly worth exploring, as the heart of the art is more than certainly rooted in religious philosophy.
To me it seems likely that the concept of Systema has been around for a very long time, a lot longer than the name Systema itself. The art we are learning today is simply too vast to have evolved from an amalgamation of ideas that have only existed since the Cold War.
Historically, it is believed that centuries ago when the ancient warriors left the Russian battlefields, some entered the churches and monasteries to atone for their battlefield experiences. Out of this mix of warrior arts and Christian philosophy, the art that is handed down to us from Mikhail Ryabko was likely born.
When I first discovered Systema, I was immediately struck by its relaxed approach to combat. The other thing that was mostly lacking in the fighting arts that I had studied, was its deep philosophy. A philosophy that not only guides your actions, but more importantly, can guide your entire life.
Despite the amount of movement explored in Systema training (which is far more than in any art I can think of) movement is only one percent of Systema training. The majority of Systema is philosophy. The way you think and feel reflects directly in how you move and interact with others.
Fear of death is the fear that rules all our fears, and studying Systema is a pathway to exploring those fears and overcoming them. In doing so, removing any doubts and obstacles as to how and when you act and react and more importantly what you feel. If you can remove the fear of death, it changes your perspective on the world.
On a professional level to see the world differently from others is a definite advantage. As a non-professional, it is no less important to remove fear, especially the ultimate fear. The fear of death. Nothing does that more effectively than religious training and the strengthening of your belief.
Watching Vladimir’s or Mikhail’s relaxed effective work, it is easy to see the benefits of their devotion. But when I think one of the biggest lessons I had in recent years about the nature of relaxation and how an untrained psyche reacts, was passed to me by Father Vladimir, the head of the Orthodox Church in Toronto.
He is casually impressive, very friendly, affable and most human of men. I always come away with deep insights into life after any conversation with him that effect me to this day. But on one occasion it was his actions that spoke volumes, more than his words.
We had just come from a beautiful service he had presided over and were having lunch with the Vasilievs family on a hot muggy summer Toronto afternoon outside of a patio restaurant. Father Vladimir was sitting opposite, sweating uncomfortably in the heat and chatting animatedly.
... A fly landed on his forehead. Walked around to his eye brow and after a while, flew away.
I was fixated by it. I know I would have reacted, flinched, brushed it away if it had landed on me. Something. But he just carried on chatting like nothing had happened. I know he knew the fly was there, I found myself wanting to reach across and brush it away. But Father Vladimir was unfazed, relaxed, and comfortable enough with his own psyche not to react to the annoying intrusion. That was very good Systema.
There is of course so much more to accepting God’s love than this, I present this is as just one very limited view point. But if considering Christian philosophy helps to interpret Systema, then maybe it will help to decipher the meaning behind Master Mikhail Ryabko’s words in this recent interview:
Question: Is Systema more defense or offensive?
MIKHAIL: If we are talking about real situations, any martial art more is defensive because first you need to survive and then attack.
Q: What is the most important quality in training and fighting?
MIKHAIL: [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]“As in life in general, the main attribute should be doing everything to glorify God.
Note how in the Scriptures, our Lord calls Himself the Son of Man. Do you know why that is?
This is to emphasize that all the miracles He created were for other people, none were created for Himself. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]In one episode the Pharisees and the crowd tried to seize Him, but it was not time for His sacrifice yet. So, what He did was He walked right through the crowd and no one could lay their hands on Him. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]How did He do that if we know that He did not perform any miracles for Himself…?
His movements were so correct and pure that no miracle was needed. He just escaped.
This is an example to us of how we should work and act and fight.”[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]“Blessed are the pure in heart…” Systema allows us to attain this.
“Also, it is important to differentiate the purpose of our training – either sport or defending your country.
Sport generally breeds pride, whereas defending your loved ones, one is ready to sacrifice his life.
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
If one is ready to fight for his loved ones, he is only afraid of God and no one else and nothing else. Such a warrior becomes undefeatable.
In our training, it is therefore very important to overcome the unwanted fear and emotions. To keep up the fear of God and cleanse our heart from the needless fear, anger, pride and other feelings. We do it through breath work, strengthening/endurance exercises, natural movements and understanding ourselves.”[/FONT]
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I am currently travelling in Hungary, so I am saving this post to read in my hotel room later this evening. It looks interesting, especially as you quote Martin Wheeler who trained at my friends club last week!
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Thank you for posting AV1, a lot of what you said bears out what my friend has told me in the real world! That was really helpful and I very much appreciate it.
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AV1
Junior Member
Certainly, D+C. I also want to address the post about fraudulent practices, dead training, and the "no touch" video of Rykabo that was posted earlier.
First, no one that has actually trained in Systema will call it fraudulent or misleading, it is only those who don't. If you doubt me, go try it for an afternoon somewhere. If you are an accomplished fighter of any kind and are speaking from a volume of experience, go try and spar with one of these guys. I guarantee it will be humbling. Ask me how I know!
As with anything, context is important. You will never see this "no touch" stuff done at the beginning of a class. In fact you will rarely see it done in training at all. Its purpose is illustrating the way the mind and body react to external stimulus, subconsciously, and why tension is not desirable. This is only done after everyone has been hitting and moving for a while.
Imagine after you have taken 20 hits (that hurt) and then someone goes to hit you again. Your mind and body will react even before contact is made...because it knows what is coming. You see this all the time in MMA fights, especially with leg kicks. Once a guy has taken a few shots to the thigh, he will involuntarily move his leg anytime the opponent moves in a manner consistent with delivering a kick. There is no demonic force at work here, it is simply fight or flight reflex. Imagine the affect this has on you when you see first hand how the body's structure is disrupted. When you see the weak points in structure, the concept of relaxation and movement really hits home.
The "dead training" that so many people talk about is a joke. In a lot of Systema training, speeds are slowed down considerably for teaching purposes. Remember, there are no set techniques, so in order to SEE what is happening, most of the work out is done slowly so you can learn what happens to the body, and how to relax and evade. There is full speed work too, but the body can only take so much. Systema is not a sport. There are no pads or gloves...ever. The object of training isn't to destroy your students or your training partners. Everyone is used to seeing tense fighters loading their strikes from the ground through the hips. It looks a certain way. What if you don't hit like that? How is that supposed to look? I'll tell you...weird...and so quick it is hard to tell what happened.
Now for effectiveness, and the "no touch" as a fighting method...really?!?!?! No Systema instructor is going to say, " I can fight you without even touching you!" That is simply ridiculous. If you try to fight one of these guys, you are gonna get hit, repeatedly and hard. Rykabo or any of these guys isn't going to play around with you, he's going to take the fight away immediately.
First, no one that has actually trained in Systema will call it fraudulent or misleading, it is only those who don't. If you doubt me, go try it for an afternoon somewhere. If you are an accomplished fighter of any kind and are speaking from a volume of experience, go try and spar with one of these guys. I guarantee it will be humbling. Ask me how I know!
As with anything, context is important. You will never see this "no touch" stuff done at the beginning of a class. In fact you will rarely see it done in training at all. Its purpose is illustrating the way the mind and body react to external stimulus, subconsciously, and why tension is not desirable. This is only done after everyone has been hitting and moving for a while.
Imagine after you have taken 20 hits (that hurt) and then someone goes to hit you again. Your mind and body will react even before contact is made...because it knows what is coming. You see this all the time in MMA fights, especially with leg kicks. Once a guy has taken a few shots to the thigh, he will involuntarily move his leg anytime the opponent moves in a manner consistent with delivering a kick. There is no demonic force at work here, it is simply fight or flight reflex. Imagine the affect this has on you when you see first hand how the body's structure is disrupted. When you see the weak points in structure, the concept of relaxation and movement really hits home.
The "dead training" that so many people talk about is a joke. In a lot of Systema training, speeds are slowed down considerably for teaching purposes. Remember, there are no set techniques, so in order to SEE what is happening, most of the work out is done slowly so you can learn what happens to the body, and how to relax and evade. There is full speed work too, but the body can only take so much. Systema is not a sport. There are no pads or gloves...ever. The object of training isn't to destroy your students or your training partners. Everyone is used to seeing tense fighters loading their strikes from the ground through the hips. It looks a certain way. What if you don't hit like that? How is that supposed to look? I'll tell you...weird...and so quick it is hard to tell what happened.
Now for effectiveness, and the "no touch" as a fighting method...really?!?!?! No Systema instructor is going to say, " I can fight you without even touching you!" That is simply ridiculous. If you try to fight one of these guys, you are gonna get hit, repeatedly and hard. Rykabo or any of these guys isn't going to play around with you, he's going to take the fight away immediately.
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AV1
Junior Member
One more thing on the business practices and disorganization. These guys will be the first to tell you to train with them and their approved instructors so you get the real deal. They understand that there are rip off artists and fake instructors out there, but remember, they are Christians and teach to help people. They support their families with there business, but aren't out there to be the Systema Police. It isn't their style. They have standards within their organizations, and requirements of their instructors, but there are no belts, ranks, or any of that stuff. Systema isn't an art of self edification.
They also authorize training groups where working with other students is encouraged. Systema is about life in general. Understanding that everything is a gift from God, and that being relaxed and free of tension is the way you should live, not just fight.
Thank you for starting this thread.
Proverbs 25:26 NKJV
"A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well."
They also authorize training groups where working with other students is encouraged. Systema is about life in general. Understanding that everything is a gift from God, and that being relaxed and free of tension is the way you should live, not just fight.
Thank you for starting this thread.
Proverbs 25:26 NKJV
"A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well."
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Protoevangel
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Senkaku
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wow, thanks AV1 for your posts, that was amazing to read. I have been involved in Neijia quan for about 10 years now and recently stumbled upon systema. I visited a class and thoroughly enjoyed it. My only concern is that of wanting to practice systema but worried that it might take me down a path I don't want to be on. but the peace it gave me was nice, they have what they call "healing sessions" at the end of class, basically partner massage work, I felt great afterwards. I totally understand it's approach with humility and keeping yourself in a calm state of mind no matter what situation you go through.
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Jesus4Madrid
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That rocks! I've actually met some fairly normal Evangelicals who came to faith through Benny Hinn (who grew up Orthodox). He's definitely not my cup of tea, but who knows, perhaps some good has come from him.
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