Swingers - Swapping Partners

[god's_pawn]

Answer me this... if everyone involved consents, whats wrong with it?

it could still be against what God has already stated on the issue. He said that murder is wrong thus the debate ends there. consent doesn't matter, God said it's wrong.

 

[LightHorseman]

it could still be against what God has already stated on the issue. He said that murder is wrong thus the debate ends there. consent doesn't matter, Gos said it's wrong.

Ah, so you support the idea of arbitrary, meaningless rules for no better reason than "but the Bible SAYS!" . Got it.

 

[god's_pawn]

Ah, so you support the idea of arbitrary, meaningless rules for no better reason than "but the Bible SAYS!" . Got it.

no i support the beneficial obviously meant for our betterment rules as given to us in the Bible. each and every word in the Bible has a meaning and a purpose. through reading and studying the Bible we can learn how to truly live in a way that is good and right and ultimately the best. God doesn't make rules just so that we have something to follow. He makes them because He knows that by following them, we can truly "live life to the fullest" as Jesus Himself put it.

 

[LightHorseman]

no i support the beneficial obviously meant for our betterment rules as given to us in the Bible. each and every word in the Bible has a meaning and a purpose. through reading and studying the Bible we can learn how to truly live in a way that is good and right and ultimately the best. God doesn't make rules just so that we have something to follow. He makes them because He knows that by following them, we can truly "live life to the fullest" as Jesus Himself put it.

I believe the Bible IS meant to better our lot. But blind adherence to its rules regardless of situation does not achieve this. So still I await your answer, if everyone in a given situation gives their informed, adult consent, in what possible tangible way can anyone be doing anything wrong?

 

[god's_pawn]

I believe the Bible IS meant to better our lot. But blind adherence to its rules regardless of situation does not achieve this. So still I await your answer, if everyone in a given situation gives their informed, adult consent, in what possible tangible way can anyone be doing anything wrong?

give me any situation and i bet i can guarantee that i can find some reason why it could be wrong. take for instance the murdering question. suppose that by murdering that person, he will not be able to go through with missionary training that he would've done had he not been murdered and thus He will no be able to go to that remote African jungle that no one else had yet gone to to preach the gospel and thus because of his and everyone else's mistake of murdering him, hundreds of African people must go on living without the message of the gospel as may have happened otherwise. it doesn't matter with our consent (plus it's probably impossible to get the full consent every single person involved since this would include future acquantances), God has a plan and acting on everyone else's consent is not the way it should go. really, if such an escape clause existed or was possible to activate, i'm sure God would've told us about it.

 

[LightHorseman]

If you're going to get into the hypotheticals of future maybes, well, then we're ALL sinners because you chose not to have sex today, and the child that would have come from that union MAY have gone on to cure cancer.

Thats just silly. We're dealing with concrete examples here please, or none at all.

I'm more than happy to accept that you probably can't ever find an example of a person who could be killed with the willing consent of everyone involved, and thats what makes murder wrong. However, I bet you CAN find people who swing where everyone involved hHAS given their informed consent... and, since that is the issue here, perhaps that is what is best discussed, rather than arcane obscure hypotheticals about the missionary work that a suicidal person MIGHT have gone oin, at some point in the undefined future?

 

[NaLuvena]

God consented when he gave us free will, a conscience, and the commandment to love our neighbours as ourselves. From that point on, we get to make our own decisions on what is morally correct.

Not true. What God does not consent to, is covered by the laws in the bible. We cannot know what is morally correct without God, and His guidance.

 

[LightHorseman]

Not true. What God does not consent to, is covered by the laws in the bible. We cannot know what is morally correct without God, and His guidance.

What God does not consent to are acts that hurt people against their will.

Hence "Love thy neighbour as yourself" is the greatest commandment.

Look, you're welcome to follow the Bible blindly without giving an ounce of rational thought to what it REALLY means, I won't try to stop you. But be aware that one of the things it tells you is to not be haughty and arogant, which is how you sound when you tell other people that they are wrong without considering their point of view.

 

[sunlover1]

I believe the Bible IS meant to better our lot. But blind adherence to its rules regardless of situation does not achieve this. So still I await your answer, if everyone in a given situation gives their informed, adult consent, in what possible tangible way can anyone be doing anything wrong?

Because marriage is a blood covenant, instituted by
God almighty, and protected by Him as well.
Why bother entering into covenant if it's a free
for all?

He makes it clear from Genesis to Revelation.
It's so simple even a child can understand.
I asked for proof but have seen nothing but
BS, or invitations to read some guys book.
BTW, it's against the CC's teachings.


His reason for marriage?

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he lovedb, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the masterc and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand. 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residued of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. 17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?


One means one​

​

 

[LightHorseman]

Because marriage is a blood covenant, instituted by
God almighty, and protected by Him as well.
Why bother entering into covenant if it's a free
for all?

He makes it clear from Genesis to Revelation.
It's so simple even a child can understand.
I asked for proof but have seen nothing but
BS, or invitations to read some guys book.
BTW, it's against the CC's teachings.


His reason for marriage?

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he lovedb, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the masterc and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand. 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residued of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously. 17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? ​

One means one​

Would I be correct in sumarising your argument as "The Bible SAYS! so I refuse to rationally evaluate it any further"?

 

[NaLuvena]

What God does not consent to are acts that hurt people against their will.

Hence "Love thy neighbour as yourself" is the greatest commandment.

Look, you're welcome to follow the Bible blindly without giving an ounce of rational thought to what it REALLY means, I won't try to stop you. But be aware that one of the things it tells you is to not be haughty and arogant, which is how you sound when you tell other people that they are wrong without considering their point of view.

Actually "Love the Lord your God" is the 1st. Love your neighbour as yourself is the 2nd. The 2 sum up the entire law.

How do you love God? By obeying His commandments.

Deuteronomy 11:1

Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

John 14:15

If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:21

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 14:24

He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

So obviously, if you say you love God, or your neighbour as yourself, and do not obey God's commandments, you are a liar. You cannot "love your neighbour as yourself "alone, if you do not fulfill the 1st commandment, then keeping the 2nd will not get you anywhere.

 

[LightHorseman]

Actually "Love the Lord your God" is the 1st. Love your neighbour as yourself is the 2nd. The 2 sum up the entire law.

How do you love God? By obeying His commandments.

Deuteronomy 11:1

Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

John 14:15

If you love me, you will obey what I command.

John 14:21

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

John 14:24

He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

So obviously, if you say you love God, or your neighbour as yourself, and do not obey God's commandments, you are a liar. You cannot "love your neighbour as yourself "alone, if you do not fulfill the 1st commandment, then keeping the 2nd will not get you anywhere.

And I believe that the way to kerep the first, is to keep the second. And, as you so rightly popint out, the second sums up the entire law. And since I believe it is possible for someone to "swing" without breaching the second, you can swing without breaching the first, so its OK.

 

[NaLuvena]

And I believe that the way to kerep the first, is to keep the second. And, as you so rightly popint out, the second sums up the entire law. And since I believe it is possible for someone to "swing" without breaching the second, you can swing without breaching the first, so its OK.

Again you're incorrect. It's not the 2nd that sums up the entire law, BOTH OF THEM sum up the entire law.

And your idea that if no one is hurt, and everyone consents is also wrong. God is hurt by our sins. Swinging is wrong, my friend. Both of them must be kept, if we are to be true in our love of God and others.

The way to keep the 2nd is to keep the 1st.

 

[sunlover1]

Would I be correct in sumarising your argument as "The Bible SAYS! so I refuse to rationally evaluate it any further"?

Yeah, lol.
Me and my silly Biblical world view.
K, nuff said.
Now I know.

 

[LightHorseman]

Again you're incorrect. It's not the 2nd that sums up the entire law, BOTH OF THEM sum up the entire law.

And your idea that if no one is hurt, and everyone consents is also wrong. God is hurt by our sins. Swinging is wrong, my friend. Both of them must be kept, if we are to be true in our love of God and others.

The way to keep the 2nd is to keep the 1st.

I don't see how swinging contradicts the first if it doesn't contradict the second.

God IS hurt by our sins... BECAUSE they hurt other people. An act that does NOT hurt other people, doesn't hurt God, nor does he consider such acts sinful. I defy you to find a single instance of a consentual adult activity that harms no one without consent that I would consider wrong. Please, please do try, as I'd very much like to learn if I am wrong.

 

[sunlover1]

I don't see how swinging contradicts the first if it doesn't contradict the second.

God IS hurt by our sins... BECAUSE they hurt other people. An act that does NOT hurt other people, doesn't hurt God, nor does he consider such acts sinful. I defy you to find a single instance of a consentual adult activity that harms no one without consent that I would consider wrong. Please, please do try, as I'd very much like to learn if I am wrong.

Lusting after another in your heart (doesnt hurt anyone right?)
But it's called sin by God (adultry)

We all have our choices to make.

10 For we must all stand before Christ to be judged.
We will each receive whatever we deserve
for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50175966#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50175966#_ftnref1

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, God DID give the moral law... which is the one about mutual adult consent (loving the neighbour as your self) The problem with all your examples is that they involve MORE than just the two people consenting. In ANY activity, if ALL parties consent, it is not sinful. Ever.

So, if all parties agree to rob and kill someone, it's not sin?

Your logic astounds.

Group promiscuity, fornication, adultery---all of it is an orgy. People who participate in this behaviour are spoken of in Scripture and guess what? They are rejected by God and forfeit the Kingdom, because they willingly live in their sins, and refuse to live in the light.

Sons and daughters of darkness. Wolves in sheep's clothing. They are among us even in this thread.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Indeed it could.

However, I would point out that the harm caused to third parties through suicide are concrete and quantifiable, any harm caused to third parties by swinging are far more intangible, and can also be addressed with adequate preparation and care.

Hellfire is pretty tangible, to me.

 

[Floatingaxe]

God consented when he gave us free will, a conscience, and the commandment to love our neighbours as ourselves. From that point on, we get to make our own decisions on what is morally correct.

God gave the moral law. It is even written on our hearts. Rejecting it and overriding it sears one's conscience.

A seared conscience does what it likes and not what God likes...all the time.

You are completely wrong, in that moral choices, while ours to make, if one belongs to Christ, he obeys God despite how his FLESH is craving sin.

 

[Lady Bug]

It is absolutely absurd to even conceive of the possibility that such a thing would be condoned in Christianity. It's not even a matter of discussion - which is why I am surprised at how long the thread has become.