Swingers - Swapping Partners

[Floatingaxe]

apparently people read & write their own bibles & call that truth
despite the obvious teachings we read.

People do a much more honest & fair job interpreting fiction &
fairy tale than God's word today (I claim it's becuz fiction doesn't command us how to live morally & deny us what we want to do and have in life).

Unfortunately these types of people will find out when they meet God
that their neglect of scripture didn't change anything for them.

Amen. Plus the embracing of secular writings by people who are unanointed, is evidence of spiritual dilution and deception.

We are to keep our eyes and our minds fixed only on Jesus.

Obviously some have spiritual strabismus.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am completely taken aback that as Christians we have to even think about this topic as being defensible under Christ. Relative morality has reached a new low. What's next, Christian orgies? Christian prostitution? Christian pornography? And to think that a "man of God" called by God to spread the pureness of His word is actually defending this kind of obvious sinful behavior.

It's a mistake to believe a person that claims to be a pastor is called to it. Some people grasp.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Again, if you are truly interested, check out the references I have provided. They put the entire subject into the proper historical and biblical context and build upon the facts. I don't think that I can post the entire book here.

Proof from the authoritative Word of God, PLEASE.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I do not believe that anyone here has said that the Word of God is wrong. On the contrary, it is man's interpretation and manipulation of that word that has created the wrong teaching. Just like the Pharisees did with their teachings, ever expanding what they thought God meant until it was unrecognizable, even by Jesus.

Believe me, I spent almost 4 years researching this and praying every minute about whether this was where God wanted me to go. He and the Holy Spirit continued to guide me to the evidence through innumerable sources. I have been His child a long time and I do know His voice. But of course, you only have my word for that. And I understand where you are coming from also. I have been there. I know that even if I were to perform miracles in front of your own eyes, you could not believe what I have posted. And you would probably use Rev 13:14 on me. There were those that would not believe Jesus simply because of the Sabbath even with His miracles - John 9:16. So when you say that you wouldn't believe what we say no matter what or who says it, I get it. Sometimes we are so set in our ways that God Himself has to come directly to us to prod us off the stump Acts 10.

Grace and peace

Sorry, but....poppycock.

No amount of study will give you anything other than what we have told you that God says. Searching and searching for loopholes is futile. God is NOT going to lead people into all truth, if their heart is seeking a way out of obedience to God's requirement of holy, moral living!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.



This includes the behaviour of promoting swinging and brazenly defending it before the Body of Christ.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I thought so too, FA....but apparently we're wrong. There is a dispute about this

LOL! The thing is, in case some may not know, disputable matters are those that we are given personal discretion about, and may not judge another for his/her indulgence or abstention.

 

[Kodos]

Wow. What a thread!

When I look at something like swinging -- which in my mind, is basically a physical high without the emotional and commitment attachments, I can clearly see that it is both immoral and a sin.

I don't know where polygamy would stand in God's eyes -- but at least there was a marriage covenant between the men and the women. When swingers 'get together', there is no commitment, no emotional attachments or further responsibility towards the other partner.

And thinking about it for myself, if my body is a temple for the Holy Spirit, then there's only one person in this life that I want this temple to be with, and that is the mother of my children. As a Christian, we are supposed to be a repository for the Holy Spirit, for God Himself.

And so, I will not do drugs, will not get drunk, will only take pleasure with my wife, and be good to my children.

For I am to be a temple for God as a Christian.

I don't care what loopholes people think they find in Scripture. That's where I stand.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Wow. What a thread!

When I look at something like swinging -- which in my mind, is basically a physical high without the emotional and commitment attachments, I can clearly see that it is both immoral and a sin.

I don't know where polygamy would stand in God's eyes -- but at least there was a marriage covenant between the men and the women. When swingers 'get together', there is no commitment, no emotional attachments or further responsibility towards the other partner.

And thinking about it for myself, if my body is a temple for the Holy Spirit, then there's only one person in this life that I want this temple to be with, and that is the mother of my children. As a Christian, we are supposed to be a repository for the Holy Spirit, for God Himself.

And so, I will not do drugs, will not get drunk, will only take pleasure with my wife, and be good to my children.

For I am to be a temple for God as a Christian.

I don't care what loopholes people think they find in Scripture. That's where I stand.

Welcome to CF!

 

[sunlover1]

I guess so.

So if swinging is cool, then orgies are too...
Hmmm.

Hen, this has been our GRIPE for years on this forum.

This isn't the only topic either - we've been told by other "christians"
that PORN is just fine (so long as the 2 christians are consenting
& it helps their relationships), that open nudism/women taking their
tops off is just fine, homosexuality, fornication (which always
gets redefined to mean pagan orgies not sex outside wedlock), swinging,....... you name it.

& my concern is always the lost as they read this trash.

Keep standing.

 

[Nadiine]

Amen. Plus the embracing of secular writings by people who are unanointed, is evidence of spiritual dilution and deception.

We are to keep our eyes and our minds fixed only on Jesus.

Obviously some have spiritual strabismus.

(pulling out dictionary)

.

 

[LightHorseman]

So, has the issue been settled yet?

 

[Armistead]

John T,

If you had read my posts and those of CC, you would know how I can say the things I have said.

I spent more than 20 years just accepting what the church, pastors, and more senior believers said was true and what the Bible meant. Then I opened my eyes and started looking into things myself. Looking into the true meaning and context of words and scripture. Looking into the history of the church and when and by whom certain doctrines were developed and how they were promulgated. Looking into why those doctrines were spread throughout the church, etc. Using more than the easily attainable references, commentaries, and Bible school materials.

One of the things I found was that sexuality was quite a bit more free in the early church, and throughout the OT, than it is in today's church. I found that pagan converts and Gnostic influences changed that and began to make sex a thing of evil rather than a God given thing of beauty and enjoyment. And that once Augustine declared sex to actually be sinful under almost every instance, the church began using that to condemn and hold the masses in bondage, generally for control and for money, basically in the same way that the Catholic Church held salvation hostage for indulgences prior to Luther.

A couple of sources, if you are interested, are Dirt, Sex, & Greed by L. William Countryman and Divine Sex by Philo Thelos. There are many others, though many are from the liberal end of the Christian spectrum and as such are often completely disregarded just for that reason. But even a broken clock can be right twice a day and when other more conservative sources concur or at least come to the same conclusions on the same facts, even the most liberal teachers can be right.

I believe that I have made my case and supplied some reference material for those that are actually interested in searching for the truth about sexual freedom under Christ. The reference material provides the evidence needed to point out errors on this subject.

As far as surrendering my pulpit, since God put me here, I would not bow to any man's call for that. I would preach to the rocks if that was all that was left. At least until God Himself moves me somewhere else. And I know that goes for the hundreds of pastors in evangelical and conservative churches in the US that believe the same thing on this subject.

Thanks for your input though. I do challenge you to check out the reference material cited. It may just spur you to look into it further.

Grace and peace

I am a sincere believer in the Royal Law of love...a couple of great books about it. I agree that the church has dumped sexuality into one pile and called it sin. No doubt the church has corrupted sexuality in many ways.

With any doctrine, two sides can be easily formed. However, the Royal law of love lives by the premise that we do no harm. Swinging is harmful, even if you can get by the emotional aspect of it, the fact that STD's are rampant in swinging...it's dangerous. I wouldn't put my spouse in any possible position that would cause her possible harm that she didn't have to be in....we all have to drive. I don't see how you can get past that.

The greeks and others believed that the body was seperate from the soul.
That is how they worshipped. They had no problem going to an orgy one day and worship the next. Even early Christians at Corinth had this problem...Paul rebuked them saying the Body is for the Lord and the Lord for the body. Study in proper context, I think it's obvious clear that God was againt those that shared their bodies with others. I know the argument that ...only in regards to idol worship. Paul clearly dealt with that....NO HARM...

Some put one bullet in a gun and spin it. So what if five chambers are empty, one is not. You spin enough and pull the trigger, eventually you're going to lose. Those that swing enough will eventually be dealing with issues of STD's, ect.

I have no problem with a great sex life. My wife an I believe and enjoy some kinky stuff, but before we would swing, we would buy a love doll.
We aren't jealous. We accept and can admire the beauty of others without jealously, but not going to risk getting herpes or aids. We have children to raise. The fact is many juices are flowing, multiplied over a hundred times, the odds are not in your favor...You admit it's an issue that has to be dealt with. The question is why would you want to deal with an issue that could cause harm or possible death to the one you loved...who wouldn't want to avoid that.

I also feel there is a deeper issue here. I think some people get off watching their spouse with others, but I think they're deeper motives involved.

See, I have no doubt that you are sincere. I never considered swinging, except fantasy only at one point. It's just something we wouldn't act on. I studied it to the conclusion that you have on many levels. We wanted great sex, we enjoyed many levels of fantasy...still do. You can make an argument that seems valid...but I think it's a failed process in the end. Trust me, there is something much more special in knowing I share just this with my spouse and no one else. Regardless of what you say...swingers cannot obtain an emtional connection as a loving husband and wife that are devoted to each other...only.

I believe swingers do seperate the body from the soul. However, I also believe those that swing forget how to make love, because sex becomes just a means for pleasure, not a loving connection between a husband and wife.

I seldom find swingers at a convention promoting Christ...The fact is it would be hard. It doesn't feel quite right...because it isn't.

 

[Kodos]

Great post. I agree completely! Between a husband and wife sex is a beautiful thing, it is great and I believe God wants us to be happy and enjoy each others bodies. I do not believe that God is shamed by sex!

However, here is another question -- what do swingers do in the case of pregnancy? See where I am going with this? This starts to lead down the question of couples tempted to abort a child, or a couple who ends up suing another couple for child support for a child that comes out of this tryst, possibly leading to divorces, children growing up in broken homes, a child who finds out he/she is illegitimate, etc...?

Why open that can of worms? God tries to protect us from these fates.

I am a sincere believer in the Royal Law of love...a couple of great books about it. I agree that the church has dumped sexuality into one pile and called it sin. No doubt the church has corrupted sexuality in many ways.

With any doctrine, two sides can be easily formed. However, the Royal law of love lives by the premise that we do no harm. Swinging is harmful, even if you can get by the emotional aspect of it, the fact that STD's are rampant in swinging...it's dangerous. I wouldn't put my spouse in any possible position that would cause her possible harm that she didn't have to be in....we all have to drive. I don't see how you can get past that.

The greeks and others believed that the body was seperate from the soul.
That is how they worshipped. They had no problem going to an orgy one day and worship the next. Even early Christians at Corinth had this problem...Paul rebuked them saying the Body is for the Lord and the Lord for the body. Study in proper context, I think it's obvious clear that God was againt those that shared their bodies with others. I know the argument that ...only in regards to idol worship. Paul clearly dealt with that....NO HARM...

Some put one bullet in a gun and spin it. So what if five chambers are empty, one is not. You spin enough and pull the trigger, eventually you're going to lose. Those that swing enough will eventually be dealing with issues of STD's, ect.

I have no problem with a great sex life. My wife an I believe and enjoy some kinky stuff, but before we would swing, we would buy a love doll.
We aren't jealous. We accept and can admire the beauty of others without jealously, but not going to risk getting herpes or aids. We have children to raise. The fact is many juices are flowing, multiplied over a hundred times, the odds are not in your favor...You admit it's an issue that has to be dealt with. The question is why would you want to deal with an issue that could cause harm or possible death to the one you loved...who wouldn't want to avoid that.

I also feel there is a deeper issue here. I think some people get off watching their spouse with others, but I think they're deeper motives involved.

See, I have no doubt that you are sincere. I never considered swinging, except fantasy only at one point. It's just something we wouldn't act on. I studied it to the conclusion that you have on many levels. We wanted great sex, we enjoyed many levels of fantasy...still do. You can make an argument that seems valid...but I think it's a failed process in the end. Trust me, there is something much more special in knowing I share just this with my spouse and no one else. Regardless of what you say...swingers cannot obtain an emtional connection as a loving husband and wife that are devoted to each other...only.

I believe swingers do seperate the body from the soul. However, I also believe those that swing forget how to make love, because sex becomes just a means for pleasure, not a loving connection between a husband and wife.

I seldom find swingers at a convention promoting Christ...The fact is it would be hard. It doesn't feel quite right...because it isn't.

 

[LightHorseman]

I think this "no harm" philosophy is on the right track... so, um... swinging with people who have been screened for STDs is...? What? OK or not? Assuming all round consent, of course.

 

[sunlover1]

So, has the issue been settled yet?

What does your bible say?
Wait, what does your church say?

I I believe swingers do seperate the body from the soul. However, I also believe those that swing forget how to make love, because sex becomes just a means for pleasure, not a loving connection between a husband and wife.

I seldom find swingers at a convention promoting Christ...The fact is it would be hard. It doesn't feel quite right...because it isn't.

I think this "no harm" philosophy is on the right track... so, um... swinging with people who have been screened for STDs is...? What? OK or not? Assuming all round consent, of course.

What does your church say?
Wait, what does the Spirit of God say?

 

[LightHorseman]

What does your bible say?
Wait, what does your church say?





What does your church say?
Wait, what does the Spirit of God say?

Spirit of God says "do unto others as you have them do unto yourself"... which, to me at least, allows for the possibility of swinging, assuming consent for all parties. Although I think it is a hazardous path, I don't think there is necesarily anything INHERENTLY wrong with it.

 

[Nadiine]

So I suppose if it were not adultery (according to your definition), you would engage in swinging? It is your preference not to...since you would most likely not do it regardless of your relationship with God and your understanding of what 'God's Word' is. So...you are guilty of interpreting the Bible in support of your preference!

It works both ways...

CC

The HOLY SPIRIT convicts the world of sin (John 16).
No, I KNOW taking another partner & having intercourse w/ them
is wrong & sinful - I actually knew that when I wasn't a Christian!
& so do the unsaved today.

I also knew sex outside marriage was wrong back then too -
I just didn't happen to care enough to stop what I wanted to do.

It doesn't work both ways - if you can't read a clear passage, the
problem isn't w/ interpretative differences, it's with your inability
to honestly SEEK TRUTH.

*****
What we have is people who are doing what Satan did in
questioning what we know - "has God said...."???
YES, He has said it's sin - instead of accepting that, they
try to do word searches & obscure studies TRYING TO SUPPORT THE SIN instead of honest study; taking the emphatic commands
that ARE spelled right out into their consideration.

Instead, they flush the obvious, blatant command down the toilet
to embrace some obscure OT. situation (which is why
God brought a NT - to proclaim the FULL truth that was hidden
to them) & try to call that truth.
(& these are the same people who will claim the OT is obsolete when
you try to use it to condemn homosexuality & other things).
It's dishonest, bias study with a motive to support sin.
*****

The definition of adultery given by Jesus ENCOMPASSES THE OT -
it's Jesus who gave the law & allowed them to commit these
sexual sins becuz of their rebellious, hard hearts; but their sacrifices for 'sins in ignorance' covered them.

BUT GOD DOES NOT ALLOW THIS NOW since He's came to earth & brought the illumination of the FULL mystery of God to us - He tells us the
meaning of that OT Law & gives fullness to it.
This is why it goes FURTHER than just 'letter of law' like they blindly
followed back then & which was veiled truth.

Instead, Jesus shows us that even lusting after another person IS WANTING TO HAVE SEX W/ THEM (& when that lust is continually fed, it leads to them eventually committing the physical act -..
which is how hatred works.
Feed hatred long enough & pretty soon it's being acted on - people commit murder, violence, theft, abuse, etc.)
Read how sin is born & its natural course:

James 1:14-16
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

 

[Armistead]

Great post. I agree completely! Between a husband and wife sex is a beautiful thing, it is great and I believe God wants us to be happy and enjoy each others bodies. I do not believe that God is shamed by sex!

However, here is another question -- what do swingers do in the case of pregnancy? See where I am going with this? This starts to lead down the question of couples tempted to abort a child, or a couple who ends up suing another couple for child support for a child that comes out of this tryst, possibly leading to divorces, children growing up in broken homes, a child who finds out he/she is illegitimate, etc...?

Why open that can of worms? God tries to protect us from these fates.

The fact the ball of worms exist proves the point. What do swingers do if someone gets pregnant, they get abortions. What do they do if they get herpes...they think condoms will protect and keep having fun. That can of worms is the problem.

In marriage, being faithful, you're protected from such. Your in an agreement to deal with the responsibility of pregnacy. Marriage is the place to protect us from the can of worms. Outside of that, you open yourself up to harm and harming others. No more than I would point a gun at my spouse, would I want her to take the chance of getting AIDS.

The bible is clear..we follow love when we seek not to harm others. Why it may be fun...it's dangerous. It's a danger that's not necessary.

People that get into swinging, sex becomes the God. I'm all for great sex, but many of these people come to worship sex, the next party, ect. How far can we take this. It's like a drug..you need more and more.

Take care.

 

[Nadiine]

Spirit of God says "do unto others as you have them do unto yourself"... which, to me at least, allows for the possibility of swinging, assuming consent for all parties. Although I think it is a hazardous path, I don't think there is necesarily anything INHERENTLY wrong with it.

sinful consent is NEVER justification for sin -
it's just 2 corrupt people agreeing on sinful acts.

For that matter, if 2 people decide to commit incest or bestiality, use or sell drugs, hand minors alcohol becuz they want it for a party,
have sex w/ your teacher, drive drunk, or 2 parents beat their kids, it all becomes fine becuz "adults" consented to it.

Sorry, God gives the moral laws, not man.

 

[Nadiine]

I think this "no harm" philosophy is on the right track... so, um... swinging with people who have been screened for STDs is...? What? OK or not? Assuming all round consent, of course.

God's instruction is what's "on the right track".

GOD is our Creator, God has designed us and knows all things about us
and what's good for us & what's bad for us - and the spiritual laws that
affect & surround us.

What your statement here does is put YOU in control of knowing what's
good & bad (harmful or not) instead of God.
You've become the moral god; setting the standard of right & wrong
despite what scripture designates about any given moral issue.

The bigger problem is that you're failing to notice that you are the
corrupted being and God isn't. You're born in sin - a corrupted
creation, then deciding what's right & wrong according to your
[FALLEN] standards - based upon lack of full knowledge of the
spirit realms and HOW things you accept cause harm.

You aren't qualified to tell God what's right & wrong & veer from His
word just becuz you arbitrarily decide something doesn't cause harm.
What if it does?
Hind sight is usually what exposes the harm - when you didn't see
any before engaging in something. Alot of harm goes unseen!
How do you know how you stumbled a stranger by your conduct?
You don't... but it harmed someone else.
The fact that scripture warns us of "living in sin keeps us out of
God's kingdom" (eternal life) should show you that there's plenty of
harm to the soul who continues in sin without repentance.

Proverbs 16:24-26
25There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

Isaiah 55:8-10
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.


Matthew 16:26
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world
and forfeits his soul?
Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[god's_pawn]

So then I take it that you follow all the dietary laws of the OT? Do you also forbid yourself from doing anything that would be "unhealthy" or even dangerous? Do you drive? 50k people a year die in accidents in just the US every year. I would say that is a pretty dangerous or "unhealthy" thing to do. It is unhealthy to go to a hospital. It is unhealthy to shake someone's hand or to be near anyone that sneezes. Do you hold up in a sterile room and avoid people? I doubt it.

you misunderstood me. no i don't follow the dietary laws, i was simply stating that there is nothing against it and that really people who eat that way are eating healthier. you give me pork any day! did you read what i wrote or did you just skim and miss what i was saying? there is a difference between and risk and a side-effect. driving involves a risk yes i might get in an accident. jumping off a 10 story bridge on solid rock will kill me. at this point, i'd be willing to say that swinging will involve almost certain unhealthy side-effects thus i don't condone it.

If you hold to one OT law and believe that God requires you to do so, you are then subject to them all. You can not pick and choose which ones you want to follow. Even Paul said that. And if you choose to hold to the law as your guide then the grace of salvation is null and void to you. Is that what you choose? Not me.

there is a difference between following the law for salvation and following it simply for healthy eating habbits. i would admire the latter and warn against the former. i stated that in my last reply, try to read a little closer ok?

God has shown us the way to His freedom - grace and salvation. Paul was also clear that some things are sin only to those that belive it is sin but not to those who walk in a greater freedom. Some walk in a greater freedom because they do not believe that Augustine had it right concerning sex. And they believe that the church settled in on his ideas about sex since then rather than what the scripture say or do not say about sex. Unfortunately, too many Christians are complacent and just will not look at the history of where some of these dogmatic doctrines have come from, like the church tradition of restrictions on sex and their toxic effects.

greater freedom? i think you're taking that a little far. 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 ""Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." so yes we have greater freedom, but some things that we are free to do we shouldn't because we are violating our bodies and thus the temples of the Holy Spirit. yes, you can say that singers aren't prostitutes, but they were only one example used and really, they both do the same sort of thing, one just costs more than the other. one wife at a time sounds right for NT teachings and according to Paul, sex = marriage. thus swingers have more than one wife.

[

It is easy to continue to argue using the standard church line and fear about what "could" happen and how "unhealthy" or "unsafe" sex is without using the same logic on anything else in file. The church has been anti-sex for so long that no one wants to even open their eyes to the possibility that what they are taught may just be wrong. I challenge anyone that really wants to understand this issue to read Divine Sex and to seriously do the research into sex throughout church history. Unless you are afraid of finding out that what you think is Biblical may only be biblianity.

i'm not afraid of sex. i believe God created it for a purpose and that the pleasure it gives is intended for our enjoyment. but swinging seems to me to be just an excuse to have more of it and satisfy fleshy desires instead of our more spiritual needs. it's not about being afraid of sex, as it is wanting to use it in the right way. i'm not sure how sex goes for having "everything in moderation" but i have no doubt the sex in the excess is wrong.