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Swingers - Swapping Partners

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Nadiine

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I'm not really surprised. We have a Christian seeker, the tag itself is a violation of scripture as no one seeks after God on their own, promoting this idea that wife swapping is okay and can glorify God. When this person is actually saved and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, I believe their belief on this matter will change.

One thing that saddens me though is that it's okay to commit adultery and have sex with people who are not your spouse, but it's not okay to judge other Christians who openly profess and engage in this behavior, even though we are told in scripture to judge those in the church. Apparently judging is the real sin here, not adultery. :doh:
apparently people read & write their own bibles & call that truth
despite the obvious teachings we read.

People do a much more honest & fair job interpreting fiction &
fairy tale than God's word today (I claim it's becuz fiction doesn't command us how to live morally & deny us what we want to do and have in life).

Unfortunately these types of people will find out when they meet God
that their neglect of scripture didn't change anything for them.
 
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Zecryphon

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The definition of adultery is the matter here. I couldn't agree more that adultery is a sin.
You can't agree that adultery is a sin if you are saying that swapping sex partners is okay. What definition of adultery are you using?

I most certainly can judge it. Go read 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. I am given the authority by God to judge other believers.

This is a disputable matter whether you like it or not and that is why your are not to judge (Romans 14).
Sorry, it's not disputable, whether I like it or not has nothing to do with it. I do not base my walk with Christ upon what I like or don't like. God has given believers in Christ the authority to judge those in the church. Romans 14 still does not trump that.

The seventh commandment does not change or become invalidated because of OT sexual ethics, which you have yet to identify.


You have yet to read all my posts...but I am not one man on an island and certainly no scholar. If you really want to know...then seek.
Again you assume, with no knowledge at all of what I've read, that I have not read your posts. But I'll agree you're no scholar.

It's really perposterous that you assume that I have not studied, simply because I take a position on this matter that is not your own. Adultery was defined in the OT and then Jesus in the NT raised the bar. But maybe Jesus' own words don't carry a lot of weight with you since you are not a Christian. And before someone hits that report button on me for telling someone else they are not a Christian, check his icon, he admits it himself.


I am a follower of Jesus Christ.
So you say.

If that meets your definition of 'Christian'...then that is what I am.
Why do you think everybody has their own definitions for various words? If Christ is your Lord and Savior change your icon.

If I have to view everything in the Bible (which you probably refer to as 'God's Wor') like you do in order to be classified as a 'Christian'...then I probably am not.
You should really stop spoutin' off at the mouth like you have a clue about me or what I believe.

I selected 'Christian-Seeker' for my faith icon because that is what I am...a Christian who is seeking. If you have stopped seeking you will stop growing.
Do you write the messages in fortune cookies in your spare time?
 
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Hentenza

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John T,

If you had read my posts and those of CC, you would know how I can say the things I have said.

I spent more than 20 years just accepting what the church, pastors, and more senior believers said was true and what the Bible meant. Then I opened my eyes and started looking into things myself. Looking into the true meaning and context of words and scripture. Looking into the history of the church and when and by whom certain doctrines were developed and how they were promulgated. Looking into why those doctrines were spread throughout the church, etc. Using more than the easily attainable references, commentaries, and Bible school materials.

One of the things I found was that sexuality was quite a bit more free in the early church, and throughout the OT, than it is in today's church. I found that pagan converts and Gnostic influences changed that and began to make sex a thing of evil rather than a God given thing of beauty and enjoyment. And that once Augustine declared sex to actually be sinful under almost every instance, the church began using that to condemn and hold the masses in bondage, generally for control and for money, basically in the same way that the Catholic Church held salvation hostage for indulgences prior to Luther.

A couple of sources, if you are interested, are Dirt, Sex, & Greed by L. William Countryman and Divine Sex by Philo Thelos. There are many others, though many are from the liberal end of the Christian spectrum and as such are often completely disregarded just for that reason. But even a broken clock can be right twice a day and when other more conservative sources concur or at least come to the same conclusions on the same facts, even the most liberal teachers can be right.

I believe that I have made my case and supplied some reference material for those that are actually interested in searching for the truth about sexual freedom under Christ. The reference material provides the evidence needed to point out errors on this subject.

As far as surrendering my pulpit, since God put me here, I would not bow to any man's call for that. I would preach to the rocks if that was all that was left. At least until God Himself moves me somewhere else. And I know that goes for the hundreds of pastors in evangelical and conservative churches in the US that believe the same thing on this subject.

Thanks for your input though. I do challenge you to check out the reference material cited. It may just spur you to look into it further.

Grace and peace

Tell me, how exactly was sex "more" free in the early church?
 
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Nadiine

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You can't agree that adultery is a sin if you are saying that swapping sex partners is okay. What definition of adultery are you using?


I most certainly can judge it. Go read 1 Corinthians 5:12-13. I am given the authority by God to judge other believers.

Sorry, it's not disputable, whether I like it or not has nothing to do with it. I do not base my walk with Christ upon what I like or don't like. God has given believers in Christ the authority to judge those in the church. Romans 14 still does not trump that.


The seventh commandment does not change or become invalidated because of OT sexual ethics, which you have yet to identify.


Again you assume, with no knowledge at all of what I've read, that I have not read your posts. But I'll agree you're no scholar.


It's really perposterous that you assume that I have not studied, simply because I take a position on this matter that is not your own. Adultery was defined in the OT and then Jesus in the NT raised the bar. But maybe Jesus' own words don't carry a lot of weight with you since you are not a Christian. And before someone hits that report button on me for telling someone else they are not a Christian, check his icon, he admits it himself.


So you say.

Why do you think everybody has their own definitions for various words? If Christ is your Lord and Savior change your icon.

You should really stop spoutin' off at the mouth like you have a clue about me or what I believe.

Do you write the messages in fortune cookies in your spare time?
a rep worthy post bro!
:thumbsup: :amen:
 
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sunlover1

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Thanks for your honesty. I hadn't either at one point and I believed as you. I'm not a scholar...but many Biblical Scholars have studied this and published their findings. Search for William Countryman (as one example) on Amazon.com.




I have already posted 'proof' (if-you-will). Go back and look at ALL of my posts in this thread and other threads in this forum related to sex.


Now THAT is a great question. Is there anything wrong with lust? Can I 'lust' after my own wife? Was it a sin if I lusted after my wife before we were married? Who was Jesus talking to (context)? How is coveting related to what Jesus was talking about? What are the implications given OT law? I can think of a few more...but if you can answer these questions you'll get the answer that you are looking for. Clue: God designed men and women to be sexually attracted and aroused by each other. If he did not...then his command to "...and multiply" wouldn't work so well. :)


Sunlover...thanks for your honesty and for being nice to me!

Free Hugs!
CC
I have no reason to be rude to you or anyone.
I dont see any correlation between the passage and coveting.

It's a very straightforward passage:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman
to lust after her hath committed adultery
with her already in his heart.http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50156662#_ftn1
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=50156662#_ftnref1
 
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Hentenza

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I am completely taken aback that as Christians we have to even think about this topic as being defensible under Christ. Relative morality has reached a new low. What's next, Christian orgies? Christian prostitution? Christian pornography? And to think that a "man of God" called by God to spread the pureness of His word is actually defending this kind of obvious sinful behavior.:sick:
 
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Nadiine

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One of the things I found was that sexuality was quite a bit more free in the early church, and throughout the OT, than it is in today's church. I found that pagan converts and Gnostic influences changed that and began to make sex a thing of evil rather than a God given thing of beauty and enjoyment. And that once Augustine declared sex to actually be sinful under almost every instance, the church began using that to condemn and hold the masses in bondage, generally for control and for money, basically in the same way that the Catholic Church held salvation hostage for indulgences prior to Luther.
Wkon...
now go read Revelation 2 when Jesus evaluates the churches.

IF what you claim is true, then Reading Rev. 2 will put that into
proper perspective:

WE FOLLOW CHRISTS WORD, not how other churches who claim to
know God ACT & live when it blatantly violates the written word of
God.

Read this:
Rev 2
19'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

20'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
21'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
22'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.


5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first;
or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

We don't pull people's or past churches sins from the OT or NT to claim we can copy sin, we call it sin and REFUSE to live in it like others wrongfully did.
 
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sunlover1

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I am completely taken aback that as Christians we have to even think about this topic as being defensible under Christ. Relative morality has reached a new low. What's next, Christian orgies?
That's what swinging is isnt it?
 
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Nadiine

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I am completely taken aback that as Christians we have to even think about this topic as being defensible under Christ. Relative morality has reached a new low. What's next, Christian orgies? Christian prostitution? Christian pornography? And to think that a "man of God" called by God to spread the pureness of His word is actually defending this kind of obvious sinful behavior.:sick:
Hen, this has been our GRIPE for years on this forum.

This isn't the only topic either - we've been told by other "christians"
that PORN is just fine (so long as the 2 christians are consenting
& it helps their relationships), that open nudism/women taking their
tops off is just fine, homosexuality, fornication (which always
gets redefined to mean pagan orgies not sex outside wedlock), swinging,....... you name it.

it's utterly unacceptable in God's name when His word is SO
crystal clear on all this crap.

As long as this site is going to give anyone carte blanche to
say anything in God's name just becuz they pick a little
Christian symbol, this site will be rampant with false teaching
& promotion of evil in God's name.

& my concern is always the lost as they read this trash.
 
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wkonwtrtom

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Tell me, how exactly was sex "more" free in the early church?

Again, if you are truly interested, check out the references I have provided. They put the entire subject into the proper historical and biblical context and build upon the facts. I don't think that I can post the entire book here.
 
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Hentenza

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Again, if you are truly interested, check out the references I have provided. They put the entire subject into the proper historical and biblical context and build upon the facts. I don't think that I can post the entire book here.

I will be honest with you. You have seen my posts and know what I think. I do not believe that there would be any piece of literature that would ever convince me that the word of God is wrong. Any Christian that can possible take this topic of wife swapping and defend it truly needs to have a real hard talk with God. This is not about the church teaching that all sex is wrong or that sex for pleasure within a marriage is wrong or anything like it. This is about sinning purposely. The word of God is clear about this issue, pastor. No further research is needed.

I urge you to read your bible and pray to the Lord to lead you away from this evil teaching.
 
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Floatingaxe

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You are cherry-picking here. Read all of Romans 14 and you might understand what Paul was talking about when he said "Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves". He talks about doing things with a "clean" conscious...because to do something against one's own conscious is sin according to Paul. If a believer knows something to be "ok" but does it without a clear conscious...he has condemned himself. There are many spiritual applications to the entire chapter of Roman 14. This chapter is actually one of the pillars on which I build my argument for why swinging may be o.k. in some cases.

Also in Romans 1 Paul is talking about a specific group of people and a specific set of behaviors.

I'm guessing you do forgive me for upsetting/offending you?

Thanks,
CC

I forgive.

I also know what God thinks of those who mince His Word for their own purposes.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Pastor to pastor:

What sort of nonsense are you spewing there?

Why do you take the subject of this EVIL to be subjective when the very thought of it is offensive to a just, righteous and holy God?

Can you not see the bold faced evil that the TROLL instigated, and then blame the reader and the protester(s) for calling evil, good? I am not suggesting any ulterior motives on your part, but I fail to see how a shepherd of God's flock can not howl in righteous indignation-driven outrage in the face of evil.

If this were a matter of then I could understand. HOWEVER this is the same sort of abominations that were practiced at the Temple of Diana, and in Baal worship, both of which are deservedly condemned in the Bible.

By your failure to CONDEMN this practice and supporting a thread based on it, you are essentially CONDONING it among the people of God. How on earth can you face your congregation on Sunday knowing that you are not condemning the same things that God hates?

Yes, this is a strong rebuke. I am doing as one pastor to another pastor in hopes that you will see the error of your ways, and repent. If you choose not to do so, I pray that you will surrender your pulpit; it is THAT serious.

Shalom,

John T

:thumbsup::amen::clap::bow:
 
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Floatingaxe

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I HAVE changed my mind about many things as the years have gone by...being open to God's Spirit.




It is necessary to study the OT in depth to construct a Godly sexual ethic. When you do that, you'll notice many things. One thing...for example...is that the ONLY way a man could commit adultery in the OT was by taking another man's wife (property). King David's sexual escapades is our prime example...but there are MANY. So...you contend that I am wrong...but you understanding of Godly sexual ethics are biased to what you've been taught and how society has programmed you. Let God program you via his Holy Spirit and you'll see things differently.

Hugs,
CC

We don't CONSTRUCT a "godly sexual ethic"! LOL!

Knowing Jesus Christ instills it within us!

The Holy Spirit changes us to cause us to conform to the image of Christ. He stands for sexual purity, one man with one wife only.
 
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Floatingaxe

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So I suppose if it were not adultery (according to your definition), you would engage in swinging? It is your preference not to...since you would most likely not do it regardless of your relationship with God and your understanding of what 'God's Word' is. So...you are guilty of interpreting the Bible in support of your preference!

It works both ways...

CC

In the same way, if murder was not a sin according to the Word, would you then consider committing it without guilt?


Come on!

Redeemed people have a sensitive spirit regarding sin. Somewhere along the line if a Christian is approving of this type of over Sexual depravity, there is a serious problem with one's conscience. Is it seared? Is it damaged by childhood abuse? Early adult dabbling in sex?

Something is rotten in Denmark.
 
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wkonwtrtom

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I will be honest with you. You have seen my posts and know what I think. I do not believe that there would be any piece of literature that would ever convince me that the word of God is wrong. Any Christian that can possible take this topic of wife swapping and defend it truly needs to have a real hard talk with God. This is not about the church teaching that all sex is wrong or that sex for pleasure within a marriage is wrong or anything like it. This is about sinning purposely. The word of God is clear about this issue, pastor. No further research is needed.

I urge you to read your bible and pray to the Lord to lead you away from this evil teaching.


I do not believe that anyone here has said that the Word of God is wrong. On the contrary, it is man's interpretation and manipulation of that word that has created the wrong teaching. Just like the Pharisees did with their teachings, ever expanding what they thought God meant until it was unrecognizable, even by Jesus.

Believe me, I spent almost 4 years researching this and praying every minute about whether this was where God wanted me to go. He and the Holy Spirit continued to guide me to the evidence through innumerable sources. I have been His child a long time and I do know His voice. But of course, you only have my word for that. And I understand where you are coming from also. I have been there. I know that even if I were to perform miracles in front of your own eyes, you could not believe what I have posted. And you would probably use Rev 13:14 on me. There were those that would not believe Jesus simply because of the Sabbath even with His miracles - John 9:16. So when you say that you wouldn't believe what we say no matter what or who says it, I get it. Sometimes we are so set in our ways that God Himself has to come directly to us to prod us off the stump Acts 10.

Grace and peace
 
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Floatingaxe

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This is a disputable matter whether you like it or not and that is why your are not to judge (Romans 14).

This behaviour does NOT fall into the category of disputable matters whatsoever!
 
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