Swingers - Swapping Partners

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chingchang

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Judge and condemn swinging? Of course we do! Do you wish to preserve the practice for some particular virue it holds?

This is truly the epitome of:

Isaiah 5:20
What sorrow for those who say
that evil is good and good is evil,
that dark is light and light is dark,
that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.


What I am seeing is apostasy. The harm is done to one's spirit--sin kills it.

Luke 6:37 (NIV)
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged.Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

John 14:15 (NIV)
"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

Here we have Jesus COMMANDING us to NOT judge and NOT condemn. If we love him...we obey him. His words...not mine.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV)
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The new covenant is fulfilled through love and results is life (eternal and more abundant). Jesus did this for us. The Spirit enables us to do it (love).

chingchang
 
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Floatingaxe

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Luke 6:37 (NIV)
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged.Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

John 14:15 (NIV)
"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

Here we have Jesus COMMANDING us to NOT judge and NOT condemn. If we love him...we obey him. His words...not mine.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV)
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The new covenant is fulfilled through love and results is life (eternal and more abundant). Jesus did this for us. The Spirit enables us to do it (love).

chingchang


Christians are charged with the job of judging many things---sin being chief among them.

Ephesians 5:11
Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, expose them.




Misusing bits of Scripture is not a good thing. It helps to read it all.



There is no love in embracing sexual sin, declaring it good.
 
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chingchang

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What I am seeing is apostasy. The harm is done to one's spirit--sin kills it.

2 Peter 2:1 and Jude 1:4 tell me that the apostasy will take place because of false teachers who deny Jesus for who he really is. This issue has nothing to do with that. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with apostasy. Don't worry...you're safe.

cc
 
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NaLuvena

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We agree. You just wrote:

"Adultery is man's attempt to break what God has joined"

That is YOUR definition of adultery...and it is very similar to mine and to what I believe God views as adultery. This definition doesn't necessarily involve a sex act. Consent does matter...because if there is consent then there is no breaking of what "God has joined". If a man does not attempt to break the other's marriage covenant and the marriage covenant isn't broken...then there is no adultery.

I don't think that our definitions of adultery are similar, because yours allows the concept of consent to take place, and also places the "ownership" of the marriage with the people involved in the marriage.

I believe that God joins the married couple, and as such, the marriage is before him, and anyone who tries to break that joining, even if it is the two married people themselves, are guilty of adultery. The consent to do something like that is God's to give.

A husband cannot give consent for his wife to sleep with another man, because that consent is not his to give. That is why, if a man divorces his wife, for any reason other than sleeping around outside of their relationship, he causes her to commit adultery.

Matthew 5:32

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

The exception there is because if the wife committed any sexual immorality on her own, she was already an adultress.


I also agree with you that it was not God's design for Man to be over Woman...such that the Woman became the property of the Man. However...it is our reality none-the-less and is so because God made it so when cursing Adam and Eve in the garden. The simple fact is that a wife was the property of a man just like an ox during OT times. If the man wanted to loan his ox out for work...he had the right to do that. Same with his wife. No breaking of the marriage covenant.
Again not true.

The marriage act predates the fall, and God's punishment of making the woman inferior to the man. When God joined Adam and Eve, they had not sinned, and were not the property of one another. That is how God
intended it to be.

While women might have been property in OT times (and even in parts of the world today), that does not justify the consent argument. You cannot use the traditions of man to justify what God has put in place.

As God instituted marriage, there is no right for anyone to loan out his wife to another. This is sin.

Dueteronomy 22:22 (KJV)
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

The reference you made to the law can be found in Deut 22:22 (above). The idea here is that the man "be found" lying with a woman married. There is no consent when someone "be found". If I came home from work and "be found" my wife lying with another man...that would be adultery. I did not consent to it and that is a direct attempt to break the marriage covenant. So...consent absolutely matters.

You assume that the husband is the only one who can find the wife in this position. It can be anyone, doesn't necessarily have to be the husband. If the husband gave the consent, and the wife did the act, and the neighbor caught the wife and the lover, they would still be stoned.

When a marriage covenant is established...the woman becomes the property of the man (OT) and the man becomes the property of the woman (NT Paul-thing):

1 Cor 7:4 (NIV)
The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

Of course love is the fulfillment of the law. So...if I love my wife I would never ask her to do something that would harm her or that she isn't comfortable with. And her the same with me. So...if there is no breaking of the marriage covenant due mutual consent...and love rules...then where is the sin? What is most important?

1 Cor 13:13 (NIV)
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I think even if it could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that adultery isn't necessarily a sex act some here would still find reasons to judge and condemn swinging. I like to call it "modern-day Phariseeism". The letter of the law isn't what we should be focusing on...it is the Spirit of the law. The law was given to show us something. If you understand the big picture behind the law and what Jesus taught (and Paul too)...you'll see it is ALL about love. If there is no harm done to people then there is no sin.

:D:D:D:D

Big hole in your argument, my friend.

Your definition of sin is wrong.

If there is no harm done to people, but you do something that is contrary to the standard of God, that is still sin.

A man can give consent to his wife, to sleep with someone else, and she can do so, and they are all happy, but it is still sin, because God does not allow that.

Sin has nothing to do with the harm inflicted on people (although most sin does inflict harm on someone). Sin is missing the mark God sets for us, not reaching the standard of perfection that God is, and holds us to.

Sin is against God, primarily. Sometimes, it is against people too.
 
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Floatingaxe

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2 Peter 2:1 and Jude 1:4 tell me that the apostasy will take place because of false teachers who deny Jesus for who he really is. This issue has nothing to do with that. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with apostasy. Don't worry...you're safe.

cc

Acceptance of blatant sin by so-called Christians is indicative of apostasy.
 
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Floatingaxe

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I don't think that our definitions of adultery are similar, because yours allows the concept of consent to take place, and also places the "ownership" of the marriage with the people involved in the marriage.

I believe that God joins the married couple, and as such, the marriage is before him, and anyone who tries to break that joining, even if it is the two married people themselves, are guilty of adultery. The consent to do something like that is God's to give.

A husband cannot give consent for his wife to sleep with another man, because that consent is not his to give. That is why, if a man divorces his wife, for any reason other than sleeping around outside of their relationship, he causes her to commit adultery.

Matthew 5:32

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

The exception there is because if the wife committed any sexual immorality on her own, she was already an adultress.



Again not true.

The marriage act predates the fall, and God's punishment of making the woman inferior to the man. When God joined Adam and Eve, they had not sinned, and were not the property of one another. That is how God
intended it to be.

While women might have been property in OT times (and even in parts of the world today), that does not justify the consent argument. You cannot use the traditions of man to justify what God has put in place.

As God instituted marriage, there is no right for anyone to loan out his wife to another. This is sin.



You assume that the husband is the only one who can find the wife in this position. It can be anyone, doesn't necessarily have to be the husband. If the husband gave the consent, and the wife did the act, and the neighbor caught the wife and the lover, they would still be stoned.



:D:D:D:D

Big hole in your argument, my friend.

Your definition of sin is wrong.

If there is no harm done to people, but you do something that is contrary to the standard of God, that is still sin.

A man can give consent to his wife, to sleep with someone else, and she can do so, and they are all happy, but it is still sin, because God does not allow that.

Sin has nothing to do with the harm inflicted on people (although most sin does inflict harm on someone). Sin is missing the mark God sets for us, not reaching the standard of perfection that God is, and holds us to.

Sin is against God, primarily. Sometimes, it is against people too.

:thumbsup::amen::clap:

Not only is the definition of sin wrong, but the concept of love is wrong as well.
 
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chingchang

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I don't think that our definitions of adultery are similar, because yours allows the concept of consent to take place, and also places the "ownership" of the marriage with the people involved in the marriage.

I believe that God joins the married couple, and as such, the marriage is before him, and anyone who tries to break that joining, even if it is the two married people themselves, are guilty of adultery. The consent to do something like that is God's to give.

That is nice...and you might want that to be true...and it might be true in your mind...but it is NOT Biblical. It is not God's consent to give. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 7 that the body of the wife belongs to the husband (not God) and the body of the husband belongs to the wife (not God).

As God instituted marriage, there is no right for anyone to loan out his wife to another. This is sin.

In your opinion and based on YOUR definition of adultery...not God's. Where there is no harm there is no sin. Love is the fulfillment of the law.


You assume that the husband is the only one who can find the wife in this position. It can be anyone, doesn't necessarily have to be the husband. If the husband gave the consent, and the wife did the act, and the neighbor caught the wife and the lover, they would still be stoned.

You are assumming. If you study the FACT that something we might call "sexual hospitality" was somewhat common place during OT times you would know otherwise. The picture here is of someone being "caught" behind the back of the rightful property owner.



Big hole in your argument, my friend.

Your definition of sin is wrong.

If there is no harm done to people, but you do something that is contrary to the standard of God, that is still sin.

A man can give consent to his wife, to sleep with someone else, and she can do so, and they are all happy, but it is still sin, because God does not allow that.

Sin has nothing to do with the harm inflicted on people (although most sin does inflict harm on someone). Sin is missing the mark God sets for us, not reaching the standard of perfection that God is, and holds us to.

Sin is against God, primarily. Sometimes, it is against people too.

Well...I think your understanding of sin is incorrect. The mark that God has set for us IS LOVE. Love for him and love for our neighbor (in Jesus' words). Love is the fulfillment of the law (according to the Bible) for a reason. God is not a Father of uncomprehendable rules with flamming hoops for us to jump through. If you ask "why?" he'll show you (seek/knock). When you don't ask why you never get beyond the letter of the law. When you ask why and receive the answer you'll get the Spirit of the law...which is love. Sin absolutely DOES have to do with harm inflicted on others (read the 10 commandments!!!!!). Some are not so obvious...like "thou shalt not covet...". However...stealing always begins with coveting. So...that makes sense. So on and so forth. When all you see are the rules...you can't see the forest through the trees.

CC
 
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chingchang

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Acceptance of blatant sin by so-called Christians is indicative of apostasy.

This (above) is what you resort to when your position is built on sand. I guess I'm a "so-called Christian". :p
 
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chingchang

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:thumbsup::amen::clap:

Not only is the definition of sin wrong, but the concept of love is wrong as well.

Shoot...maybe ya'll can set me strait since I'm obviously an apostate "so-called Chrsitian" who advocates "blatant sin" and has no understanding of love or sin? Wow.

CC
 
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Floatingaxe

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This (above) is what you resort to when your position is built on sand. I guess I'm a "so-called Christian". :p

My house is built on the Rock.

The Word, Jesus, who lives his life in us, tells us what sin is---so, to call catting around with other partners besides the spouse He supposedly gave, is indicative of one who has either abandoned faith in Christ, or has counterfeit faith altogether...and those who don't do it, yet approve of it and argue for it are included.

Now, that's sand!
 
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holo

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Sin has nothing to do with the harm inflicted on people (although most sin does inflict harm on someone). Sin is missing the mark God sets for us, not reaching the standard of perfection that God is, and holds us to.

Sin is against God, primarily. Sometimes, it is against people too.
Well, that all depends on what God wants. Does God ever want something which is less than good for a person? I don't think it's possible to sin against God if it's not in some way harmful toward one of his children. Even denying God as your lord or father doesn't hurt God in and of itself. It hurts him because he wants what's best for you. If God wants a man and woman to stay together, it's because he knows that will be best for them, not because he needs to satisfy some weird rule.
 
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MarkSB

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In your opinion and based on YOUR definition of adultery...not God's. Where there is no harm there is no sin. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

So swinging = an act of love? :confused:

NaLuvena said:
I don't think that our definitions of adultery are similar, because yours allows the concept of consent to take place, and also places the "ownership" of the marriage with the people involved in the marriage.

I believe that God joins the married couple, and as such, the marriage is before him, and anyone who tries to break that joining, even if it is the two married people themselves, are guilty of adultery. The consent to do something like that is God's to give.

A husband cannot give consent for his wife to sleep with another man, because that consent is not his to give. That is why, if a man divorces his wife, for any reason other than sleeping around outside of their relationship, he causes her to commit adultery.

Very well said. :thumbsup:

A marriage relationship is to have the hand of God upon it. And what God has joined together, let no man seperate.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Matthew 7:24-27
“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”
 
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chingchang

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Matthew 7:24-27
“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”

Luke 6:37 (NIV)
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged.Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

John 14:15 (NIV)
"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

Hmmm...so you've "listened to my teachings"...but are you following? Do you love Jesus? If so...you can show him that by obeying his commands in Luke 6:37!!!
 
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holo

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So swinging = an act of love? :confused:
Personally I can't imagine a situation where "swinging" could to any good or be healthy emotionally or physically, or that it would not harm those involved.

But I know there are polygamists with pure hearts, who are actually following their convictions and even honestly believe that the bible says they should do it. So it's too easy to judge their motifs without knowing their hearts and intentions.

Compare it with stealing or killing - sure, it's wrong, but it can still actually be the right thing to do. Peter gives the hooker Rahab credit for lying and misleading some soldiers. And you can probably think of a situation where killing someone would be right, yourself. Like if you had to choose between two of your daughters and an enemy soldier.

So many christians can't handle a world that is in full colour and do their best to reduce it to black and white.
 
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chingchang

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God sees it in black and white. That's what counts. Relativism reduces everything to a pall of muddy gray.

You're on a roll tonight. Would you like to provide us with some scripture that shows that God sees all issues in black and white?

CC
 
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