Swingers - Swapping Partners

[TheReasoner]

I'm reminded of that passage somewhere that says something to the effect that whosoever looks at another in that certain way has already committed adultery.

Yeah, it's in Matthew 5:28: "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.".

Hands up those who can plead innocent to this charge.

I don't think anyone will. But plenty will try to explain it away.

 

[Nadiine]

I haven't read any posts in here yet but

There's no such thing as a Christian 'swinger'.

Mat. 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[chingchang]

I haven't read any posts in here yet but

There's no such thing as a Christian 'swinger'.

Mat. 7:21-23

21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

You're right Nadiine. The swingers who claim to be Christian, who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, who proclaim the Gospel, who do good works in his name, who pray, who seek the truth...they aren't really Christians...because they 'swing'. Sinners can't be Christians...thanks for reminding us...

chingchang

 

[Nadiine]

You're right Nadiine. The swingers who claim to be Christian, who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, who proclaim the Gospel, who do good works in his name, who pray, who seek the truth...they aren't really Christians...because they 'swing'. Sinners can't be Christians...thanks for reminding us...

chingchang

Ya, you're right!
For that matter then, who's to say the Priests who continually molest young
kids at the church aren't pedophile Christians.
hey, let's not forget the Christian rapists & adulterous Christians
(which is what swapping spouses is: ADULTERY)...

oh, & then there's Christian murderers... people who murder
in God's name & don't think there's anything wrong with it...
& dont' forget all the bank robbing Christians
who pull off heists a few times a year for a living....
& Fred Phelps & his crew who hate people & are glad some
are dead -
Let's see, did I forget anybody who continues living the ways
they want?

Try getting some proper study in about sin - then we'll talk.

 

[TheReasoner]

You're right Nadiine. The swingers who claim to be Christian, who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, who proclaim the Gospel, who do good works in his name, who pray, who seek the truth...they aren't really Christians...because they 'swing'. Sinners can't be Christians...thanks for reminding us...

chingchang

We all sin, but I do think there is a difference between falling in sin while trying not to, and living in sin. When someone make sin a lifestyle, can that person be said to truly follow the Lord?

Swinging is sinful, that's pretty plain I think. So if you swing fully knowing it is a sin, and try to justify it... Well.... It certainly isn't anything we should encourage I don't think.

Of course, so is living in a materialistic lifestyle. If you are a true materialist, as many Christians sadly are, then you're living in sin just as surely as a Swinger is. But of course many people think sexual sin is somehow much worse than sins relating to property. I think sin is sin. It's fruit is still death.

 

[chingchang]

Nadiine,

Just becuase you say something and believe it is true (or of God) does not make it so. I know...as well as you...that adultery is a sin...and a VERY serious sin. The argument is not whether adultery is sin...but whether or not swapping spouses is sin. If you remove your emotional reaction to the proposal and study what God says adultery is (that involves cracking the OT)...you'll learn very quickly that adultery may...or may not involve a sexual act. Did you know that in OT times the only way a man could commit adultery was to take (steal) another man's wife and have sex with her? King David did this. There was no sexual sin in his life until that point...and he had sex with hundreds of women (wives/concubines/slaves). I would even go as far as to say King David had more of God's favor than you or I have. There are MANY OT examples of things that happend that you would consider "sin"...that God did not rebuke...correct...or provide any kind of guidance on. If you have an understanding of what God's law means...and points to...then you have reached a place of spiritual maturity. If you focus on the letter (which kills)...then one could argue that you don't have the spirit. Hear this if you have ears to hear...if you were to engage in swinging...you would be committing a sin becuase you believe it is wrong (Romans 14). But...other Christians who have God's understanding of adultery can engage in that as long as they aren't violating their own consciouses (Romans 14). Adultery is not a sexual act...although it can involve a sexual act. Adultery is severing or attempting to sever the marriage bond (breaking the covenant). Have you ever heard of "sexual hospitality"? Do you know what would have been a common practice in the households of wealthy Israelites back then...such as when Israel's Kings (like David) received guests? Do a little searching on that subject and you'll soon see that adultery is not a sexual act. Now...if there is no permission...then there is theft and a breaking of God's law. Usually coveting proceeds theft (another broken law). But...we know that love is the fulfillment of the law. So, in the case of Christian swingers...the law of love applies...as well as Romans 14. A Christian can stand confidently before God and apply the law of love, Galations 5:1 and Romans 14 without flenching. That is a mature position.

Understand clearly what I am saying...adultery is sinful...swinging may or may not be. I...personally don't engage in it. However...I would never sit in the seat of judgement and tell people they are sinning when I don't know for sure that they are. If they were directly violating the law of love or the specifics of the 10 commandments...then...and only then...would I say something. But that is me...I'm not a legalist.

chingchang

Ya, you're right!
For that matter then, who's to say the Priests who continually molest young
kids at the church aren't pedophile Christians.
hey, let's not forget the Christian rapists & adulterous Christians
(which is what swapping spouses is: ADULTERY)...

oh, & then there's Christian murderers... people who murder
in God's name & don't think there's anything wrong with it...
& dont' forget all the bank robbing Christians
who pull off heists a few times a year for a living....
& Fred Phelps & his crew who hate people & are glad some
are dead -
Let's see, did I forget anybody who continues living the ways
they want?

Try getting some proper study in about sin - then we'll talk.

 

[Nadiine]

We all sin, but I do think there is a difference between falling in sin while trying not to, and living in sin. When someone make sin a lifestyle, can that person be said to truly follow the Lord?

Swinging is sinful, that's pretty plain I think. So if you swing fully knowing it is a sin, and try to justify it... Well.... It certainly isn't anything we should encourage I don't think.

Of course, so is living in a materialistic lifestyle. If you are a true materialist, as many Christians sadly are, then you're living in sin just as surely as a Swinger is. But of course many people think sexual sin is somehow much worse than sins relating to property. I think sin is sin. It's fruit is still death.

The bible does specify sexual sins are of a different type - you not
only sin against God, but against your own body. It's abuse of
the body. & the sin of homosexuality is also referred to as
"abusers of mankind".

But if we can't say Christians aren't chronic swingers who commit adultery
for fun, then what can we say anymore?
It would mean there's literally NO way to identify a Christian as one who obeys God by turning from sin; but one who chooses
to live in sin & claim God.
Biblically, it's called decieving ourselves becuz there is no such
thing as someone who continues to practice sin regularly w/out
repentance or stopping. & anyone promoting such sins
would show lack of moral conscience.

Struggling w/ sin is 1 thing - and everyone does...
The issue is living in it as a regular lifestyle.
'Swingers' are living a continual life of adultery without
repentance.

The mark of a Christian is a changed lifestyle. Repenting means
to turn from sin & stop it and even hate it. (obedience to God's
standards that we WANT to comply with).
John 15:14
"You are My friends if you do what I command you.

I think Paul was clear in 2 passages:
1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:
immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these,
of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you,
that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mat. 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them,
'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

The word practice there in Greek, is also translated as
"work" to literally work at sin consistently/perpetually.

Greek ergazomai:
middle voice from ergon - ergon 2041; to toil (as a task, occupation, etc.), (by implication) effect, be engaged in or with, etc.:--commit, do, labor for, minister about, trade (by), work.

This isn't struggling w/ sin & trying to stop it, but chronically
making a practice of sin as a regular lifestyle.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine,

Just becuase you say something and believe it is true (or of God) does not make it so. I know...as well as you...

I would never make such a claim that if I say something, it makes
it true.

God's Word says it - that makes it true.
We'll be judged by what we do with that. Obey or rebel.

 

[chingchang]

I would never make such a claim that if I say something, it makes
it true.

God's Word says it - that makes it true.
We'll be judged by what we do with that. Obey or rebel.

Obey or rebel YOUR understanding of 'God's Word' based on YOUR exegesis of YOUR Bible translation? Have you ever really studied?

chingchang

 

[TheReasoner]

The bible does specify sexual sins are of a different type - you not
only sin against God, but against your own body. It's abuse of
the body. & the sin of homosexuality is also referred to as
"abusers of mankind".

But if we can't say Christians aren't chronic swingers who commit adultery
for fun, then what can we say anymore?
It would mean there's literally NO way to identify a Christian as one who obeys God by turning from sin; but one who chooses
to live in sin & claim God.
Biblically, it's called decieving ourselves becuz there is no such
thing as someone who continues to practice sin regularly w/out
repentance or stopping. & anyone promoting such sins
would show lack of moral conscience.

Struggling w/ sin is 1 thing - and everyone does...
The issue is living in it as a regular lifestyle.
'Swingers' are living a continual life of adultery without
repentance.

The mark of a Christian is a changed lifestyle. Repenting means
to turn from sin & stop it and even hate it. (obedience to God's
standards that we WANT to comply with).
John 15:14
"You are My friends if you do what I command you.

I think Paul was clear in 2 passages:
1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:
immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these,
of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you,
that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mat. 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them,
'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

The word practice there in Greek, is also translated as
"work" to literally work at sin consistently/perpetually.

Greek ergazomai:
middle voice from ergon - ergon 2041; to toil (as a task, occupation, etc.), (by implication) effect, be engaged in or with, etc.:--commit, do, labor for, minister about, trade (by), work.

This isn't struggling w/ sin & trying to stop it, but chronically
making a practice of sin as a regular lifestyle.

I agree with much, most or all of what you say. Well, with one absolute exception. The word "because" is not spelled with a z.

I especially like your last sentence.
I do wish to ask you though, just to clarify, do you agree that the wages of any and all sin is death? Do you agree that a person living in sexual sin is just as lost as a person living in material, commercial or violent sin? That even ONE sin means you're lost without the blood of Jesus?!

 

[archaeologist2]

The argument is not whether adultery is sin...but whether or not swapping spouses is sin.

to swap spouses you have to either:

1. stay married to them and have them committ adultery which is sin
2. divorce your spouse and committ pre-marital sex which is sin, especially if the divorce is not for adultery.
3. break one's vows given at marriage which would be a violation of the passage- do not make a vow you cannot keep (paraphrased). if you promised to be withone spouse forever, thenyou would be sinning by spousal swapping as you broke your oath.

no matter how you cut it spousal swapping is sin and wrong.

Obey or rebel YOUR understanding of 'God's Word' based on YOUR exegesis of YOUR Bible translation? Have you ever really studied?

If somebody wants to be a swinger, as long as you're not my husband, I don't care. If somebody wants to be a swinger and call themselves Christian, have at it. Really, I have bigger things to worry about and not enough free time to spend deciding who is and is not a real Christian, and who can and cannot claim to practice a faith that, last I checked, doesn't have closed enrollment.

these attitudes are why the organized church is having so many problems and making minimal impact for God. if one ignores the 'little' things, they soon grow to bigger problems and have been allowed to spread throughout the church.

weed out the 'little' things and you won't have to dealwith the bigger items that come along.

if a person is NOT willing to weed out false teachings, identify whatis not christian how can they dealwith the 'bigger' things? they can't as they wouldnot be able to recognize if the 'bigger' things are of God or not.

there is a closed entrollment, and it begins with those who preach another gospel than the one Jesus and the apostles taught. if one cannot do as God says by expelling those who do not believe then satan ghas won in that church.

there sis more but i am too tired to think atthe moment

Do you agree that a person living in sexual sin is just as lost as a person living in material, commercial or violent sin? That even ONE sin means you're lost without the blood of Jesus?!

one is lost when they reject Jesus Christ as their savior. though one does not continue to practice sin after salvation, they have given it up.

 

[Orville]

There are certain things in life you don't need to look to scripture for in order to assess their merit.

I'd say swinging ranks pretty damn high among the more stupid things a person could do. Forget the potential health issues, it simply reeks of a void spirit. You can try and remove the intimacy of the act in your mind, and make it a recreational sport, but you can't escape the reality that it is intimacy in it's most intense form.

I see swingers the same way I see drug or alcohol abusers; a way to numb the mind of introspection while savoring the joys of sensation. Seriously, swingers are sick.

 

[god's_pawn]

Wife swapping, masturbation, homosexuality, serial monogamy, mixed families, a black President - the world, some would have us believe, is going to hell in a hand basket.

Personally, as long as the participants are not indulging is some form of psychological, emotional or physical abuse, I see no problem. Better that than bombing, killing and raping.

you seem to have missed the point about where these sorts of acts are unhealthy. the laws given in the OT were not given so that the Israelites had something to follow, but because they were good and healthy things to follow. also, you are not the determiner of what is good or bad, whether or not you see a problem is beside the point. are these acts better? perhaps, but that's no excuse. it is better to choose neither of two evils than the lesser.

 

[wayseer]

Ah, Yes - I see a number of hands in the air. Thank you, but I don't happen to share your confidence.

Perhaps it is also timely to re-read Samuel 1 & 2. David happened to be a bit of a swinger himself. He also committed murder in an an attempt to cover his tracks so to speak. Yet, and yet it was from this man that Jesus was born. Strange how God operates. Sort of, unpredictable really. Don't you think?

 

[sunlover1]

The reason the church is making a minimal impact for God is that the church has spent so much time telling the world about how bad everybody is, that people think that to be devout you need to either be self-loathing or have a narcissistically high opinion of yourself. You see it all the place on these forums even. People where you need to either hate yourself, or hate everybody else, or you're not good enough to call yourself Christian.

You mean that the BIBLE tells folks how 'bad' they/we are.
But yeah, that might be part of the reason many people dont
want to come to the party.

This of course only works if you make the assumption that not everybody is a sinner in need of redemption. However, since everybody sins everyday, even the most pious and judgmental of Christians, unless you weed out everybody, there will always be people who are Christian who sin.

Well, my church doesn't have a bouncer that stands outside that says you must be X sanctimonious to enter. Our church is open to everybody, because they missed the part of the Bible that stated not everybody needs or deserves the love of God and Jesus, and should be denied that love and attention.

Paul Condemns Spiritual Pride

5 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.*
2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship.
3 Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit.* And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man
4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church.* I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. 5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed* and he himself* will be saved on the day the Lord* returns.
6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough?
7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us.*
8 So let us celebrate the festival, not with the old bread* of wickedness and evil, but with the new bread* of sincerity and truth.
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin.
10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that.
11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer* yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.
13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”*​

Maybe our congregation is somehow weird, but we're packed with sinners. Maybe yours isn't, and you're all wonderfuly perfect non-sinners, but if such a thing was the norm instead of the exception, then there'd be no need for God's salvation, would there?

3 Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people.
4 Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God.
5 You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.
6 Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.
7 Don’t participate in the things these people do.
8 For once you were full of darkness, but now you have light from the Lord. So live as people of light!
9 For this light within you produces only what is good and right and true.
10 Carefully determine what pleases the Lord. ​

thus says the Lord

 

[BAFRIEND]

Well, my wife and I years back met this couple at church.

They seemed to like us alot. We hung out together and went camping and our kids played together and the familys became close.

One day the lady drops by our house while my wife is alone and brings up the fact that she and her husband are swingers and they really like us, so...

We really felt violated by that experience and it ended the friendship.

Afterall, they were Catholics too and we are taught that marriage is a sacrament. The other couple, perhaps fearing a scandal after our rejection to their grooming and advance, go to another parish now even though we never mentioned what happened to anyone.

 

[archaeologist2]

Perhaps it is also timely to re-read Samuel 1 & 2. David happened to be a bit of a swinger himself. He also committed murder in an an attempt to cover his tracks so to speak. Yet, and yet it was from this man that Jesus was born. Strange how God operates. Sort of, unpredictable really. Don't you think?

you ignore that david was punished for his sins, that he was not swinging but lusted, that he repented and was restored to God, which is what grace and forgiveness is all about, making it possible for Jesus to be born in his family.

you always focus on what you want to try and make your point and you leave out so much which will defeat your arguments. if you are under the control of your sexual desires then get help not defend their sinfulness.

your logic would require that all descendents of David would have to be sinless, which would mean 1,000 years of sinless generations. that is unrealistic and just absurd.

it is becoming clear that you like to waste people's time.

 

[Nadiine]

The reason the church is making a minimal impact for God is that the church has spent so much time telling the world about how bad everybody is, that people think that to be devout you need to either be self-loathing or have a narcissistically high opinion of yourself. You see it all the place on these forums even. People where you need to either hate yourself, or hate everybody else, or you're not good enough to call yourself Christian.

Not true at all -

3 reasons they make much less impact (in the Western world only - the
rest of the world is increasing in Christianity)
1) Becuz the world is hard hearted & rebellious - choosing Sin over God
(that is why they refuse to repent - if anything, the church isn't
stating it enough).
2) THE CHURCH IS TRYING MORE TO BE LIKE THE WORLD &
is acting just like them; why should the world want what we
have when we seem to want they have?
3) prophecy teaches that men become more evil, not more good-
God haters, lovers of self & pleasure.

It's inevitable that more & more reject God permanently as per scripture
(why blame God's people for that?).
Think back in time - ALOT more people came to Christ in the past
then today... yet back then is when more churches taught against
sin & called it out.
Actually, it appears more to me like the LESS we call out sin, the LESS they
want God.

 

[Nadiine]

Well, my wife and I years back met this couple at church.

They seemed to like us alot. We hung out together and went camping and our kids played together and the familys became close.

One day the lady drops by our house while my wife is alone and brings up the fact that she and her husband are swingers and they really like us, so...

We really felt violated by that experience and it ended the friendship.

Afterall, they were Catholics too and we are taught that marriage is a sacrament. The other couple, perhaps fearing a scandal after our rejection to their grooming and advance, go to another parish now even though we never mentioned what happened to anyone.

I don't know if I would have exposed them or not... probly not since
they did leave.
I look at people like that as Predators.

My husband & I were on vacation in Palm Springs yrs. back & were in the
hot tub by our room & a couple came in with us &... somehow it just
felt wierd, but I couldn't explain why.
Well, about 1/2 hr. later I figured out why it felt wierd, they were looking
to swap.
Dear God. Plus, the husband was ugly. Come on now.
If I'm going to sin, at least make the man worth the penalty.
Sorry.

Anyways, That was when I was backslidden & out of church.
I thought it was sleazy, low class & sick then & I still do.

 

[Ave Maria]

Swinging is just another word for adultery.

Matthew 19:18 NIrV "Which ones?" the man asked. Jesus said, "'Do not commit murder. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not give false witness.