Swingers - Swapping Partners

[LightHorseman]

There is absolutely no biblical evidence to support the notion that something is only a sin if it "appears" to hurt someone---otherwise God is AOK with all the things HE has defined as sin when it "appears" no one is hurt. ALL sin is destructive---in one way or another, temporally and eternally. God is Holy and God's laws are Holy............He is not mocked by man disregarding His laws and making up their own as they go along.

I disagree. I believe Christ's new commandment tells us EXACTLY this... it is only sin if it harms someone else. Period.

Adultery defiles the marriage bed. The definition of adultery is having unlawful relations with someone who is not your spouse or having unlawful relations with the spouse of another. It is sin, not only against the marriage partner God joins one to (whether they are "willing" or not is not the issue concerning guilt), but it is sin against the Holy commands of the Lord.

Yeah... I get that... but WHY?

WHY does God care if no one is getting hurt?

 

[lastblast]

I disagree. I believe Christ's new commandment tells us EXACTLY this... it is only sin if it harms someone else. Period.Yeah... I get that... but WHY?

WHY does God care if no one is getting hurt?

What are the 2 commandments of Jesus? Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus said, "if you love me, obey me".............God says, "do not commit adultery"..........if one is committing adultery (as defined by God), they do NOT love God, but hate Him as evidenced by their disobedience.

If a person LOVES their neighbor they will not entice them to enter into sin and offend/disobey God---for then, by them entering into sin (one's spouse AND the other parties), you have become a stumbling block in their relationship to God. So, if one entices another to sin, they are in fact HATING their neighbor............and they ARE hurting them.

 

[LightHorseman]

What are the 2 commandments of Jesus? Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus said, "if you love me, obey me".............God says, "do not commit adultery"..........if one is committing adultery (as defined by God), they do NOT love God, but hate Him as evidenced by their disobedience.

If a person LOVES their neighbor they will not entice them to enter into sin and offend/disobey God---for then, by them entering into sin (one's spouse AND the other parties), you have become a stumbling block in their relationship to God. So, if one entices another to sin, they are in fact HATING their neighbor............and they ARE hurting them.

Your not really answering the question... you're kind of clarifying the legality of whether or not something is adultery... what I want to know is WHY is it wrong if no one is getting harmed?

Or, another way, what specific, empirical, harm is caused to two spouses who freely consent to an open relationship?

 

[lastblast]

Your not really answering the question... you're kind of clarifying the legality of whether or not something is adultery... what I want to know is WHY is it wrong if no one is getting harmed?

Or, another way, what specific, empirical, harm is caused to two spouses who freely consent to an open relationship?

I don't know what you want me to say Is not the fact that God calls defiling the marriage bed, sin, enough for you? When God says, "you shall not commit adultery", are you saying that you believe it ok to disobey God and then commit adultery and it is not "hurting" anyone? Sin KILLS..........SIN separates, not only us from each other, but us from God. If one has children, adultery harms them as well.

You are not talking about a recreational "sport", you are saying that what God has called sin/immorality CAN be practiced with no ill effects---even though Jesus and Paul both taught that the sexually immoral will have their place in the lake of fire/not inherit the kingdom of God. Is that not the ultimate in harm?

 

[LightHorseman]

Well I'd be interested in any evidence that yu have thought about this issue in any depth BEYOND merely parroting what "the Bible SEZ!"

The Bible is not an end in itself, merely a means to an end. You don't seem to have any comprehension that the Bible was written for a reason, you seem happy with the knowledge only that it was written.

 

[lastblast]

Well I'd be interested in any evidence that yu have thought about this issue in any depth BEYOND merely parroting what "the Bible SEZ!"

The Bible is not an end in itself, merely a means to an end. You don't seem to have any comprehension that the Bible was written for a reason, you seem happy with the knowledge only that it was written.

Ah, I understand now...............if speaking and living by the Word of God is not enough for you, we understandably will see things VERY differently.

You obviously elevate the created above the creator, so we will not be able to come into agreement. "Thus saith the Lord" means something to me. Understanding/and even not understanding the why's sometimes should never change what we choose to do if we truly LOVE and trust God's judgment on sin.

To say one CAN commit adultery with no harm to anyone is very "me" focused and is not viewing the action in light of deeper understanding. When God commanded that we do not defile the marriage bed by committing adultery----HE SAW IT ALL----the pain, the destruction of family and healthy relationships within that family, the perversion of marriage as He created it (one man/one woman for life).

 

[Machachachi]

2 Timothy 3:16

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

The meaning of the Bible I think is made quite clear. Its foolish to think inside of a vacuum, which Swinging more or less is. Your claim that it hurts no one is spurious. You come here seeking to argue about ethics, but your position has no backbone, it is simply repeating what the world says. As long as no one gets hurts, as long as it feels good, its okay. Except its just not, Christianity is not about being nice or even moral, its about knowing the almighty God, the Holy of Holy's. The whole pretense of your argument is that good behavior is enough, when really, that's not what our faith is about, the Spirit of God produces fruit, but the Spirit of God is our end goal, not the fruit it produces, but evidence of the Spirit is in the fruit we produce, I can see no situation in which Swinging would bring glory to God.

 

[max1120]

lastblast...I think you are way over the top comparing remarriage after divorce to "swinging". Kind of like comparing killing in self defense to 1st degree murder. Yes there is a dead body involved but how they were killed becomes the real point!

You honestly believe that woman who divorces a man who beats her regularly or beats her children and then finds happness with a man who treats her like a queen and is a good and decent father to her children is somehow committing adultry?

The god you worship is not mine!!!! I worship the Christian God...not a tyrannt who out to get us all which is the one I suspect you worship. That guy sounds cruel and lacks real love or mercy. My God is all about love and mercy and he does not think that remarriage after divorce is a sin!

Max

 

[davedjy]

WHY does God care if no one is getting hurt?

I guess it depends on what you interpret as "getting hurt". There is plenty of psychological harm in using your body like that until you become numb to it. Look at prostitution, how is it any different and yet many prostitutes admit that their promiscuity is wrong and they go against their consciences to do it. Having sex is supposed to be a sign of unity and trust with one person, and promiscuity and treating your body like public sexual gym equipment cheapens what sex actually was intended for.

 

[chingchang]

Adultery must be defined in a Biblical context in order to debate the issue of swinging in light of the Bible's strong condemnation of adultery as sin. I contend that adultery during OT times is not what we consider adultery today. Quite simply...the only way a man could commit adultery during OT times was if he had sex with a married woman or a betrothed woman. All other women were game...regardless of how many wives and concubines he already had.

An important note on Hebrews 13:4...some translations say the marriage bed must be KEPT pure (undefiled)...while others say that the marriage bed IS pure (undefiled). Wow...what a difference. One Bible translation says that you need to make an effort to make sure the marriage bed doesn't become defiled so that you won't suffer the same fate as adulters and whoremongers...while the other translations basically say that there is no effort that needs to be made because the marriage bed IS pure...meaning there is nothing you can do to muck-it-up.

The marriage covenant is what is important. It is the covenant! If you break any of the vows you made to your spouse...you've committed adultery in the same way that Israel committed adultery against Jehova in the OT by not following his rules and seeking to please Him. If you have sex with another behind your spouses back and that hurts them...you have sinned. If you and your spouse both enjoy sharing your sexuality with others and give thanks to God for that...where is the sin? I think Romans 14 would apply in that case. But...this is my humble opinion after studying the issue of adultery in depth for years. While adultery can and often does include sex with someone other than your spouse...it doesn't have to. The definition of adultery that some of us have arrived on is "causing or intending to sever the marriage bond...or breaking the marriage covenant".

This issues of sexual sin, adultery, the marriage bed, etc. have been beaten to death in other threads. I'm not sure much more can be said...except this:

ALL OF YOU WHO ARE CONVINCED IN YOUR OWN MIND...DO NOT CONDEMN YOURSELVES AND DO NOT LET YOURSELF FALL UNDER THE YOKE OF BONDAGE AGAIN...YOU HAVE BEEN SET FREE BY JESUS CHRIST FOR THE SAKE OF FREEDOM!!!! WHAT AN AWESOME PLACE TO BE!

Remember...love and liberty. We are at liberty to let nothing but love rule. I believe this is taught Jesus and the NT Saints. Why do we need to know anything else? Love can do no wrong. This is what the modern-day pharisees on these threads stumble on:

Romans 13:10 (King James Version)
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law

Hugs All,
chingchang

 

[god's_pawn]

well, forgive me for skipping over all the replies, but i just wanted to put my two cents in on the OP, hopefully i wont just be repeating what others have already stated.

my opinion is that this group is well, false. there is a practice known as "reading between the lines" that should make it obvious that what this group promotes is wrong. and also, something not said in the bible is not necessarily legal. it's like saying that we can get high at marajuana because it is never specifically mentioned in the Bible.

 

[max1120]

As far as "swingers" go...I am not so sure it's a "sin". If two people married or whatever want to participate in sexual "sex parties" or orgies or whatever together...that is not adultery in my view. They both consented and enjoyed so who gets hurt..no one! As far the whole std thing...use condoms and be somewhat selective in your partners and stay away form dirty needles and your chances or getting HIV is very very very very low. Other std's are a differnt story. The good news is you get a vaccination for the most dangerous varrities of HPV (Human Papaloma Virus) and Chlymidia and Syphilis is currable with antibiotics. As far as Herpes (HSV 2) virus, I understand it can be an very unpleasent thing but not deadly and can be treated with medication. Also there will likely be a cure for HIV through the use of embryonic stem cell research in the not to distant future. So std's while serious are not a good reason to just give up sex..lol Be smart, be wise, be safe, and use good sense and 99.999% of the time you will be ok.

I am amazed at how some people try to use std's to somehow justify there views on abstence. Safe sex, getting vaccinated for HPV and HepB, and using a little common sense is what we should be supporting.

Max

 

[god's_pawn]

As far as "swingers" go...I am not so sure it's a "sin". If two people married or whatever want to participate in sexual "sex parties" or orgies or whatever together...that is not adultery in my view. They both consented and enjoyed so who gets hurt..no one! As far the whole std thing...use condoms and be somewhat selective in your partners and stay away form dirty needles and your chances or getting HIV is very very very very low. Other std's are a differnt story. The good news is you get a vaccination for the most dangerous varrities of HPV (Human Papaloma Virus) and Chlymidia and Syphilis is currable with antibiotics. As far as Herpes (HSV 2) virus, I understand it can be an very unpleasent thing but not deadly and can be treated with medication. Also there will likely be a cure for HIV through the use of embryonic stem cell research in the not to distant future. So std's while serious are not a good reason to just give up sex..lol Be smart, be wise, be safe, and use good sense and 99.999% of the time you will be ok.

I am amazed at how some people try to use std's to somehow justify there views on abstence. Safe sex, getting vaccinated for HPV and HepB, and using a little common sense is what we should be supporting.

Max

if we are supposed to protect our bodies and keep them a temple for God then anything that causes any kind of damage to them is a sin. this includes things that have a "very very very very low" chance of causing damage, because those things nonetheless have a chance of being unhealthy and therefore the act causing them is wrong. also, the Bible talks against all kinds of sexual immorality, this will almost certainly include any kind of orgy or other sexual act that this group promotes. consent isn't an issue here, we don't sin against eachother as we do against God. we don't have the authority to say: "oh, sure you can go ahead and do this sin and i won't count it as such" and expect that action to no longer be a sin. God defines sin, not us, and we can't change His ruling

 

[matt09832]

"this is just crazy. people like that make me really think twice about "christians"

 

[NaLuvena]

If a man slept with a married woman, in the time of Moses, the Law stated that both of them were to be stoned to death. I'd say that is proof that God is against swinging.

The issue of consent does not even come into play.

 

[wayseer]

Wife swapping, masturbation, homosexuality, serial monogamy, mixed families, a black President - the world, some would have us believe, is going to hell in a hand basket.

Personally, as long as the participants are not indulging is some form of psychological, emotional or physical abuse, I see no problem. Better that than bombing, killing and raping.

 

[&Abel]

21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.
24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips,
30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, (BC)unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them.

 

[chingchang]

If a man slept with a married woman, in the time of Moses, the Law stated that both of them were to be stoned to death. I'd say that is proof that God is against swinging.

The issue of consent does not even come into play.

The issue of consent absolutely DOES come into play because the wife was the man's PROPERTY. There is no coveting or stealing if consent is involved. Ever wonder why adultery is a sin? What was the point of the 10 commandments? Every law given to men from God can be tested against the 10 commandments to understand how/why it is a sin. Adultery does not involve consent...and always involves first coveting your neighbor's property (i.e. wife) and next stealing (taking without consent of the owner) that property. Ultimately, of course, love is the fullfilment of the law (see the NT). So, if love is first in our decision-making and nobody is being harmed...there is NO sin.

You don't have to accept it. Romans 14 speaks about the difference between those who can and can not accept it. I hope I have not hurt you faith by saying this...for it was/is not my intention.

Hugs All!
chingchang

 

[archaeologist2]

In response to the poster who used the example of a women escaping an abusive husband for a better one, one must remember that Go ddoes not give permission to people to sin. Plus people are NOT to use sin to escape sin; they are to use God's ways.

God has given people a way to escape but they must be true to Him and not use such an escape as justification for their actions.

in my view.

doesn't matter what your 'view' is, you are not the final judge, you will not be sitting in place of God at the final judgment and you do not over-rule God.

God's kingdom-God's rules not yours. if any people claim to be christian and hold to views contrary to the Bible, then check the source for God will NOT give opinions or views contrary to His word and rules.

as for christian swingers--- they are just looking to excuse or justify their folowing their sinful desires. one cannot look at the action of sarah or other women on a surface and limited scale but must look at all the factors involved. Yes sarah was doing a cultural practice BUT guess what--ishmael was NOT part of God's promise to abraham nor was he the son abraham was to expect...there is more but it will have to wait for another time.

swinging, whether christian or secular, is against God's rules, laws, commands (whichever word you want to use there) thus IT IS SIN. God determines what sin is and man CANNOT make any changes to that declaration.

IT DOES NOT matter if the people are 'consenting' or not, there is NO teaching from any biblical writer, apostle or Jesus which states that 'consent' changes sin to not sin.

 

[wayseer]

I'm reminded of that passage somewhere that says something to the effect that whosoever looks at another in that certain way has already committed adultery. Hands up those who can plead innocent to this charge.