Sweeping investigation of Southern Baptists churches reveals 700 sex abuse victims in the last 20...

[Rhamiel]

So you think people 150, 200 yrs ago were just as prone toward homosexuality and pedophilia as they are today and that it was the fear of punishment essentially that kept them from acting on their impulses?

No, I would guess that it was less of a problem back then in general

The specific issues of homosexuality and pedophilia were probably even less common then general abuse

But the abuse crises in the USA is not pedophilic in nature, most of the people molested are above the age of puberty and are male
That makes this a crises Predatory Homosexuals

 

[JacobKStarkey]

I explained why it was not considered the problem back "then" instead of now: lack of access and everyone living in everyone else's business.

 

[Michie]

I think sin is getting the glamour/victimization that is unknown in history. As Scripture says, there is nothing new under the sun. Sin was as prevelant in the past as if is now. The only difference is how society percieves sin. And how well it is accepted. We have people applauding infanticide now, among other things. The only difference is people's attitudes. We were warned of this in Scripture.

Are we dealing with new phenomena that our contemporary socities have created or are we just now becoming self aware? In other words, did Edwardian America or Europe suffer with these same issues to this same extent?

 

[JacobKStarkey]

The human race is in the post-sin secular age, and consequences will follow because of such beliefs.

 

[chevyontheriver]

This doesn't seem to logically follow. If fear of punishment was the driving force, from whence did the recognition of just laws and their corresponding punishments arise? A corrupt bunch of people cannot enforce justice.

There was this thing called the sexual revolution. All sorts of deviations became normalized in that. We are blessed that society still thinks sex with children is wrong, but almost everything else has been normalized. Pope Paul VI saw it coming. Couldn't stop it though.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree. We must keep the public view, heat on. The present abuse of children for forced child slavery in the United States is horrible. Forcing children eight or ten years old to work one hundred hours a week, seven days a week, in America, is atrocious! Yet exploiting children for cheap labor, does not gain the spot light of our nation, as necessarily being a bad thing. How can this not be a bad thing! Many see forced child slavery as innocent, while we now accept sexual child abuse as a horrible crime. All child abuse is horrible, and exposing it, to change the minds and heart of the nation, is a good thing.

Children forced to work 100 hours a week ended a long long time ago. Unless you know something we're all missing.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

The FLDS used to work the children in the pecan orchards for no pay for 60 hours a week or more during harvest.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The FLDS used to work the children in the pecan orchards for no pay for 60 hours a week or more during harvest.

What's a FLDS? And how long ago? And how did they get away with that?

The wacko fringe of the Mormons? Led by the guy who spent time in prison? If so, that's an aberration and not in any way normal.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Yeah, a Mormon whack fringe group: white patriarch pioneer polygamist fruitcakes were doing that in the last ten years. Any religious (Christian or other) group that is patriarchal and "weird" to the bone will abuse children and women. What the FLDS did, while uncommon, is not rare.

 

[Beloved2018]

Do not mistake that I said all people are corrupt, for I did not. It logically follows that enough people are, though, that just laws and punishments develops from one's inability to resist personal corruption, obsession, and possession. It may not deter the act, but the perp is put away or killed judicially.

But what I'm saying is, that the majority of people 150, 200 yrs ago couldn't have been potential perpetrators as potential perpetrators don't enact just laws (the late-term scandal in NY is a case in point). Evil people are going to make laws that reflect their corrupt 'values'.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

I disagree with your observation, Beloved2018, because the majority in most countries now and back then often did not make the laws.

 

[Beloved2018]

I disagree with your observation, Beloved2018, because the majority in most countries now and back then often did not make the laws.

You may be right and if so, I stand corrected. Let's look at this.
My scope of reference was only 200 hundred yrs and only included America and Europe but we can go further back and include other Christian nations.
1) America (Republic)
2) France (Republic)
3) England (Parliamentary Monarchy)
4) Russia (Monarchy)
5) Germany/Austria (Monarchy)
6) Greece (Monarchy)
7) Prussia (Monarchy)
8)Can you or someone else fill in the others?

 

[Markie Boy]

I think it is important to mention that most of the problems in our Church had to do with same sex attraction and not pedophillia, per se. From what I have read on the issues in the Baptist Church, much of their problems, not all, seem to deal with opposite sex encounters.

Yes - we must hope they deal with that head on at they synod. It's everywhere, but we have single states where the numbers are greater than what's show in the Baptist reports for the whole country.

We shouldn't even compare to secular groups. We expect more from the Church, far more, as we should.

Everywhere has a problem, but we must admit we have a unique problem.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

You may be right and if so, I stand corrected. Let's look at this.
My scope of reference was only 200 hundred yrs and only included America and Europe but we can go further back and include other Christian nations.
1) America (Republic)
2) France (Republic)
3) England (Parliamentary Monarchy)
4) Russia (Monarchy)
5) Germany/Austria (Monarchy)
6) Greece (Monarchy)
7) Prussia (Monarchy)
8)Can you or someone else fill in the others?

And up until the end of the 17th Century (and occasionally beyond) the National Churches had tremendous influence on the making of laws. In the Middle Ages, it was the role of the Popes and Bishops and Metropolitans, etc. to guide law making.

I have no reason to believe we are any more or less wicked as human beings now compared to back 'then.' The differences major now are the numbers and the opportunities because of technology.

In fact, we may be even more evil because the West is now in a post-sin age that seems to excuse almost everything sexually except for sexual assault and sex with children (I am speaking very generally).

 

[Markie Boy]

You got it! When the Church is doing the same as the world - we are in trouble - and that's where we are at right now.

 

[Beloved2018]

You got it! When the Church is doing the same as the world - we are in trouble - and that's where we are at right now.

So, let's say, hypothetical speaking, the 'Roman Catholic Church' was the officially sanctioned state Church of the United States, even allowing for all the present scandals, would abortion, same-sex marriage (and whatever else, you'd like to add), currently be law? Bear with me on this...

 

[Markie Boy]

No worries - we should always listen to one another. I'd like to say they would not be law. But we have an odd situation where they have some laws on the books, but they don't enforce them.

My only honest answer, is I'm not sure. They have not roped in Fr. James Martin, and much of the other issues are let to run, while conservative priests get shunned or exiled.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Cultural Catholics blend in with society. Real Catholics do not.

 

[Beloved2018]

Cultural Catholics blend in with society. Real Catholics do not.

Is there anything to protect 'real' Catholics especially within the hierarchy from societal influence?

 

[Michie]

I think that is up to us. How much time and effort we put into continually learning our faith with an abundance of prayer asking for protection and guidance. Let's face it, a good majority are pew warmers. Catholic or not.

Is there anything to protect 'real' Catholics especially within the hierarchy from societal influence?