Swedenborg

[Noxot]

Goodness?

What's Jesus have to say about it?

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 There is no one who understands; no one whoseeks God. 12All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one'

....and you have the goodness to "birth God"? Seems to me your anti-biblical theology is fallaing apart and getting worse with each post.

all who are good get their goodness from God who is the source of true being and life. God gives birth to us and we give birth to God. if you only understand the truth that we are sinners and not that we are saved, then you are still not saved enough. because salvation implies that you have been set free or are being set free from the ways of sin and death. if we are to constantly condemn people who God is in the process of saving then you do speak ill of the grace and goodness of God. and so to always and constantly enforce that we are wicked and miserable sinners and to reject that there is goodness in humanity of which God gives to all of us as much as we are receptive of him, then you are not seeing the full revelation of the good news.

 

[-57]

all who are good get their goodness from God who is the source of true being and life. God gives birth to us and we give birth to God.

If we get our goodness from God (which I agree with) ...then it is only God who gives birth. It is God who regenerates us through the sacrificial atonement made by Jesus Christ on the cross. It is the Spirit of God that enters into us and lives in us.
It is God that chooses us.
It is God that calls us.
It is God that draws us.
It is God that grants us the ability to believe.
It is God that Gives us to Christ.
It is God that regenerates us.

 

[Noxot]

If we get our goodness from God (which I agree with) ...then it is only God who gives birth. It is God who regenerates us through the sacrificial atonement made by Jesus Christ on the cross. It is the Spirit of God that enters into us and lives in us.
It is God that chooses us.
It is God that calls us.
It is God that draws us.
It is God that grants us the ability to believe.
It is God that Gives us to Christ.
It is God that regenerates us.

God won't save us without our consent. we must be willing. if it were only Gods responsibility to save the whole world he would have already saved it! thus we have to give birth to God, because God expects that of us. we have to be free otherwise being saved has no meaning. when two people get married it is both who agree to it. and so we give birth to God by being his. and he gives birth to us by he being ours.

and so the doctrines of Swedenborg are true because God was with him. God still works through his people, he will never stop loving all his people. that is why he blesses some with so much, that they may give to all and it is what swedenborg did and it is what happens with all of those who love God. to only trust the bible is to not trust in the power and real active and living spirit that God is. the bible is good and has a vast depth to it but God is the maker of all of reality. therefore God will reach people with whatever deserts/desserts that they have and with whatever capacity they have for God. they simply must be willing as Jesus said "knock and you shall find".

 

[Albion]

real virgins are spiritual virgins according to the bible.

Not necessarily. The point about the Virgin Mary being a 'virgin' was that she was a virgin in a physical sense, not simply pure or spiritual or unmarried, etc.

 

[Noxot]

Not necessarily. The point about the Virgin Mary being a 'virgin' was that she was a virgin in a physical sense, not simply pure or spiritual or unmarried, etc.

yeah that is one purpose and Christians have made a huge deal out of it already. I am simply pointing out what is not common although it should be.

 

[EmSw]

Let me say this again to you....there are two judgements. The White Throne and the second is the judgement Seat of Christ (bema).

Form what you post it sounds like you haven't heard of the judgement seat of christ.

It sounds like you've never heard people are judged according to their works, not beliefs.

 

[-57]

God won't save us without our consent. .

Wrong. Christians are predestined.
People are already condemned...already DEAD in their sin and trespasses....unless God allows you to believe, you can't.

 

[-57]

It sounds like you've never heard people are judged according to their works, not beliefs.

I will be judged for my works....at the Judgement seat of Christ. There I will receive a reward for what I did for Christ.
It kinda sounds lke you reject the scripture that talks about the Judgement Seat of Christ...despite it being in the bible.

 

[tdidymas]

poor reasoning. try to think a little rather than tunnel vision your way into speaking evil of God because the way you interpret the bible makes God look unfair and evil.

You see what I wrote that way because of your own bias. Paul wrote that others saw his description of God as "unfair" (i.e. unjust). Romans 3:4. I am not here for "good reasoning" in the eyes of the world. I'm here to state what the Bible clearly teaches.
TD

 

[EmSw]

I will be judged for my works....at the Judgement seat of Christ. There I will receive a reward for what I did for Christ.
It kinda sounds lke you reject the scripture that talks about the Judgement Seat of Christ...despite it being in the bible.

Let's see what Jesus said about judgment.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Those who hear His word and believes in Him, SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT OR CONDEMNATION! Yet you want me to believe in a judgment seat of Christ. Those who come into judgment are those who do not hear His word and believe in Him, because Jesus has been given the authority to execute judgment.

Jesus gives more details about the judgment in John 12.

47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Those who hear His words and do not believe are not judged or condemned during their lifetime. They will be judged, that is, condemned by the very word they rejected in the last day, which Swedenborg is when a man dies.

Jesus also gave us why some come to life and some to condemnation in verse 29 of chapter 5 - those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation (judgment, damnation, and accusation). Judgment is not based upon belief, election, predestination, denomination, or favoritism. It is based strictly on how one lives his/her life. Of course, if you believe wrong, you live wrong.

 

[Fizzywig]

Let's see what Jesus said about judgment.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Those who hear His word and believes in Him, SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT OR CONDEMNATION! Yet you want me to believe in a judgment seat of Christ. Those who come into judgment are those who do not hear His word and believe in Him, because Jesus has been given the authority to execute judgment.

Jesus gives more details about the judgment in John 12.

47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Those who hear His words and do not believe are not judged or condemned during their lifetime. They will be judged, that is, condemned by the very word they rejected in the last day, which Swedenborg is when a man dies.

Jesus also gave us why some come to life and some to condemnation in verse 29 of chapter 5 - those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation (judgment, damnation, and accusation). Judgment is not based upon belief, election, predestination, denomination, or favoritism. It is based strictly on how one lives his/her life. Of course, if you believe wrong, you live wrong.

Yes, I have found that if I accept the "election" of ALL, all contradictions in the Scriptures of all Faiths, and between Faiths, are resolved.

Namu amida butsu

 

[Noxot]

only the divine seed inside each is predestined. the son of perdition will be destroyed.

 

[Fizzywig]

only the divine seed inside each is predestined. the son of perdition will be destroyed.

I have found it better to think that the "son of perdition" AND "the divine seed" are both in all of us. The divine will is that the divine seed will come through in the end. All are elected.

I would use different terminology, but........

 

[Fizzywig]

All are elected

Just to anticipate the subject of free will being raised and that God does not want robots. I would say that we are here within this reality to learn to be free, we are not here to chose between any one thing and another and to be judged eternally on those choices

On another thread concerning Thomas Merton, a Catholic posted some words of Merton on freedom, words which I have often read and reflected upon.

Here they are....

The mere ability to choose between good and evil is the lowest limit of freedom, and the only thing that is free about it is the fact that we can still choose good.

To the extent that you are free to choose evil, you are not free. An evil choice destroys freedom.

We can never choose evil as evil: only as an apparent good. But when we decide to do something that seems to us to be good when it is not really so, we are doing something that we do not really want to do, and therefore we are not really free.

Perfect spiritual freedom is a total inability to make any evil choice. When everything you desire is truly good and every choice not only aspires to that good but attains it, then you are free because you do everything that you want, every act of your will ends in perfect fulfillment.

Freedom therefore does not consist in an equal balance between good and evil choices but in the perfect love and acceptance of what is really good and the perfect hatred and rejection of what is evil, so that everything you do is good and makes you happy, and you refuse and deny and ignore every possibility that might lead to unhappiness and self-deception and grief. Only the man who has rejected all evil so completely that he is unable to desire it at all, is truly free. God, in whom there is absolutely no shadow or possibility of evil or of sin, is infinitely free. In fact, he is Freedom.

(from "New Seeds of Contemplation")

At the time the words highlighted/illuminated another set of words by a zen master, words that I had always found difficult to understand..........I responded to the Catholic guy by saying........."The quote you gave brings to mind some words of Merton that I am unable to trace. Yet I remember that they revolved around the need to submit to the will of God................and Merton spoke of this as not being submission to some enigmatic yet demanding command that would be the polar opposite of the easy yoke, because in fact the "will of God" is that we be free."

Also, it bought to mind some other words by the Zen Master Caoshan which have always seemed - at least to me - difficult to interpret and truly understand, yet seem - in the light of your own quote - to perhaps point towards the same truths.......

When studying in this way, evils are manifest as a continuum of being ever not done. Inspired by this manifestation, seeing through to the fact that evils are not done, one settles it finally. At precisely such a time, as the beginning, middle, and end manifest as evils not done, evils are not born from conditions, they are only not done; evils do not perish through conditions, they are only not done.

Anyway, this post is in part concerning "free will" but also to illustrate what is known as "dialogue" between people of different Faiths.

All this because for me, grace is one, yet differentiated in how it manifests.

All true prayer, is a giving up of ourselves, rather than making requests. More seeking to allow God to play in us, rather than playing God ourselves.

So we can plan and anticipate, have our techniques for "gaining" salvation/enlightenment, look for our own justifications, seek to make our "self" a suitable case for the receipt of any gift from the divine. Or actually see what is given, when given. Finally recognised and not earned by belief. So always new, and not what we may have expected.

 

[-57]

Let's see what Jesus said about judgment.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Those who hear His word and believes in Him, SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT OR CONDEMNATION! Yet you want me to believe in a judgment seat of Christ. Those who come into judgment are those who do not hear His word and believe in Him, because Jesus has been given the authority to execute judgment.

Jesus gives more details about the judgment in John 12.

47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Those who hear His words and do not believe are not judged or condemned during their lifetime. They will be judged, that is, condemned by the very word they rejected in the last day, which Swedenborg is when a man dies.

Jesus also gave us why some come to life and some to condemnation in verse 29 of chapter 5 - those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation (judgment, damnation, and accusation). Judgment is not based upon belief, election, predestination, denomination, or favoritism. It is based strictly on how one lives his/her life. Of course, if you believe wrong, you live wrong.

The judgement seat of Christ is a judgement for rewards. NOT salvation.

 

[-57]

Anyway, this post is in part concerning "free will" but also to illustrate what is known as "dialogue" between people of different Faiths.

When it comes to actual salvation...there is no free-will.

The closes you come to free-will is that after God regenerates you...you freely go to Jesus. If God doesn't grant you the ability to believe you can't go.

 

[Albion]

Are we through with talking about Swedenborg now?

 

[Chesterton]

Are we through with talking about Swedenborg now?

I'd like to exchange recipes for Swedish meatballs now. It would be just as relevant and much yummier.

 

[Albion]

Understood, but then again, you're enjoying some meatballs right now in the celestial realm in which you live simultaneously with this physical life...but without realizing it. OK, we're back on topic after all.

 

[Fizzywig]

When it comes to actual salvation...there is no free-will.

Yes, that is what I said.

The closes you come to free-will is that after God regenerates you.

Yes, that in effect is what I said. (Though not so much "close", more an actual sharing of God's freedom)

.

.you freely go to Jesus.

I would use "amida"

If God doesn't grant you the ability to believe you can't go.

Yes, that is what I said. On this thread, but in more detail on the "One for Israel" thread today.......(in bold print)

"Faith does not arise
Within ourselves.
The Entrusting Heart itself
Is given by the Other Power"

(Rennyo, a Pure Land devotee)

Perhaps a parallel could be made with strict Calvinist election. Amazing Grace. Nothing of our own.

Fortunately, a Pure Lander is not bound by the need to reconcile such Amazing Grace with the apparent NT teaching that not all are elected. Pure Land Buddhism is explicitly Universalist. Thus,we are not left with the quandary of why God, who "wills that all be saved", in fact does not do so.

Possibly for you the sticking point is "Jesus" and the "no other name" text found in the NT?

Nevermind, you can't have everything.