Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

Jamdoc · Oct 19, 2020

It's not Isaiah 11 but Isaiah 2, and Joel 3 and Micah 4 all describe a time of beating swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks, and outside of an earthly millennial kingdom I can't see how that comes to pass. as in eternity, there never are weapons to convert into farming implements.
In a Millennial period, yes, this earth has a long history of war, so, a time of peace on earth where weapons are converted to farming implements seems a lot more plausible, than us having weapons to convert to begin with in eternity.

sovereigngrace · Oct 19, 2020

genez said:
ok... infant. An infant placed into eternity. No resurrection body? Just remains an infant forever?

You can not answer that. Not with a good answer, you can't.

.... infancy + eternity? = a retarded soul for all eternity!?

For, nothing ages in eternity. Nothing can grow old, nor age.

How long is that going to take to sink in? all eternity?

I have already addressed this in post 24 and you have already carefly avoided it. I will repeat it. It rebuts your whole thesis.

The NHNE comes after the millennium/Satan's season not at the beginning as you argue. Check Rev 20 and 21. Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah 65:19-25? Nowhere! Premils force their beliefs into the sacred text where it does not belong. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to them.

Let us let the Bible speaks for itself!

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

The one thing we know for sure is that Scripture does not contradict itself in any way. The way some theologians explain this passage would lead you to believe that this passage is the one exception to this rule in Scripture. Of course, we know it isn’t (or can’t be). This much-debated passage before us must therefore beautifully correlates with other similar Scripture, which informs us that the Coming of Christ is climactic and that the new earth is totally free of the curse. It is essential that we always interpret difficult passages like this with other clearer and simpler passages.

The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.

Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and not imposing a private interpretation on this Old Testament chapter means letting New Testament Scripture locate the “new heavens and a new earth.” Various passages show the removal of the old corrupt heavens and earth at the coming of Christ and their replacement with the new perfect heavens and earth. Jesus teaches in Matthew 24:35-37: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.”

Revelation expressly locates the new earth after the millennial period and not at the beginning. Revelation 21:1-5 tells us: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

This is beyond dispute. Any other understanding is contradicting Scripture. Notwithstanding, this doesn’t stop some Bible students forcing this passage into a supposed future millennium in between this current age and the new heavens and a new earth in the age to come. This can only occur if one is to ignore the setting clearly outlined by the Holy Ghost elsewhere in Holy Writ.

The next absolute we know from interpreting Scripture with Scripture is that there is no sin or corruption in the new heavens or on the new earth. There is therefore no death or decay, sickness or rebellion. It is a perfect holy environment that is free of iniquity. 2 Peter 3:13 confirms: “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” The Bible makes clear that this current earth is purged at the Second Coming of all the repercussions of the fall and perfected for His glory.

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר

Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after

לֹא־
lō-
Not

יִֽהְיֶ֨ה
yih-yeh
Be

מִשָּׁ֜ם
miš-šām
Hence

ע֗וֹד
‘ō-wḏ,
More

ע֤וּל
‘ūl
an infant

יָמִים֙
yā-mîm
[of] days

וְזָקֵ֔ן
wə-zā-qên,
an old man

אֲשֶׁ֥ר
’ă-šer
After

What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת

Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die

לֹֽא־
lō-
Not

יְמַלֵּ֖א
yə-mal-lê
Fulfill

אֶת־
’eṯ-
Your

יָמָ֑יו
yā-māw;
Days

כִּ֣י
kî
Inasmuch

הַנַּ֗עַר
han-na-‘ar,
a child

בֶּן־
ben-
Old

מֵאָ֤ה
mê-’āh
Hundred

שָׁנָה֙
šā-nāh
Years

יָמ֔וּת
yā-mūṯ,
Die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing, only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more ageing, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of ageing and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”

sovereigngrace · Oct 19, 2020

Jamdoc said:
It's not Isaiah 11 but Isaiah 2, and Joel 3 and Micah 4 all describe a time of beating swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks, and outside of an earthly millennial kingdom I can't see how that comes to pass. as in eternity, there never are weapons to convert into farming implements.
In a Millennial period, yes, this earth has a long history of war, so, a time of peace on earth where weapons are converted to farming implements seems a lot more plausible, than us having weapons to convert to begin with in eternity.

I have already addressed this.

With Premils, they not only invent an additional age to that which Jesus and the NT recognized, but they then conveniently dump prophecy after prophecy into this supposed future age. This is problematic. This is seen when the OT prophet mentions where it relates to. Because Premil lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 “last days” periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.

Last days

Let us start with the subject of "the last days."

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Is this spiritually speaking of the intra-Advent period or is it talking about some new age in-between this evil age and the age to come?

The correlation between Isaiah’s vision and that of Micah is undoubted and remarkable.

But what is these prophecies all about?

The whole thrust of these passages surrounds a new anticipated day when Messiah would come and usher in true peace. Of course, many trip up with passages like this with their literalist mind-set. They fail to see that peace with God is not some purely abstract earthly thing. It would be wrong to understand or interpret the prophetic words in both of these texts in a natural literal carnal sense. It is not referring to the cessation of physical violence. The termination of war or military conflict does not constitute true peace in God’s eyes.

The last days

The NT assists us in locating this period. We do not need to speculate.

Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the ‘last days’. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

1 Peter 1:18-20 also confirm the fact that says, “Christ … was manifest in these last times for you.”

The ‘last days’ commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ and will terminate with His glorious Second Coming. Hebrews 9:26 says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin.”

In Acts 2:16-21 Peter shows that the last days were active and ongoing at Pentecost, saying, “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”

John testified in I John 2:18 that he was actually in the last days: “Little children, it is the last time.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 says, “the ends of the world are come.”

Speaking of his day, James 5:1-3 says, “Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.”

These passages demonstrate that we are in the end times since Christ’s first Advent and that the last days don’t relate to another age after Christ’s appearing, as Premillennialism imagines. The “last days” clearly relate to the intra-Advent period and find their conclusion at the “last day” – Christ’s Coming. I see the “last day” (singular) of the “last days” (plural) as the all-consummating appearing of Christ, which witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgement. I believe Scripture shows that the “last days” (plural) terminate at the “last day” (singular) with the raising and judging of both the righteous (John 6:39-44, 54, 11:23-24) and the wicked (John 12:48). In all these references, the wording in the original for “last day” is always the same – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

sovereigngrace · Oct 19, 2020

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

You have clearly no answers to the Amil position. You cannot address one single point or Scripture that was presented. All we are getting is insults, crude language and frustration in response. How you think that will appeal to anyone is beyond me. On top of that, you cannot give us one single Scripture that teaches your theory of (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

Marilyn C · Oct 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Who are Gog and Magog and who are the saints on earth in Satan's little season in Rev 20?

Gog and Magog is the nation/s in the far north, the northern quarter of the earth. (Ez. 38: 1 & 15, Joel 2: 20)

The saints that Satan comes against are those who believe in God and obey Him. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

Jamdoc · Oct 19, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I have already addressed this.

With Premils, they not only invent an additional age to that which Jesus and the NT recognized, but they then conveniently dump prophecy after prophecy into this supposed future age. This is problematic. This is seen when the OT prophet mentions where it relates to. Because Premil lacks any corroboration in Scripture for a future 1,000 years’ age after the second coming, it invents 2 “last days” periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.

Last days

Let us start with the subject of "the last days."

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Is this spiritually speaking of the intra-Advent period or is it talking about some new age in-between this evil age and the age to come?

The correlation between Isaiah’s vision and that of Micah is undoubted and remarkable.

But what is these prophecies all about?

The whole thrust of these passages surrounds a new anticipated day when Messiah would come and usher in true peace. Of course, many trip up with passages like this with their literalist mind-set. They fail to see that peace with God is not some purely abstract earthly thing. It would be wrong to understand or interpret the prophetic words in both of these texts in a natural literal carnal sense. It is not referring to the cessation of physical violence. The termination of war or military conflict does not constitute true peace in God’s eyes.

The last days

The NT assists us in locating this period. We do not need to speculate.

Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the ‘last days’. Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

1 Peter 1:18-20 also confirm the fact that says, “Christ … was manifest in these last times for you.”

The ‘last days’ commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ and will terminate with His glorious Second Coming. Hebrews 9:26 says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin.”

In Acts 2:16-21 Peter shows that the last days were active and ongoing at Pentecost, saying, “this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh.”

John testified in I John 2:18 that he was actually in the last days: “Little children, it is the last time.”

1 Corinthians 10:11 says, “the ends of the world are come.”

Speaking of his day, James 5:1-3 says, “Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.”

These passages demonstrate that we are in the end times since Christ’s first Advent and that the last days don’t relate to another age after Christ’s appearing, as Premillennialism imagines. The “last days” clearly relate to the intra-Advent period and find their conclusion at the “last day” – Christ’s Coming. I see the “last day” (singular) of the “last days” (plural) as the all-consummating appearing of Christ, which witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgement. I believe Scripture shows that the “last days” (plural) terminate at the “last day” (singular) with the raising and judging of both the righteous (John 6:39-44, 54, 11:23-24) and the wicked (John 12:48). In all these references, the wording in the original for “last day” is always the same – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

That doesn't address it at all. It's a lot of diatribe that does not address the issue of the OT prophets, envisioning a future age, where war USED to exist, but now peace reigns, and weapons are converted to tools of peace.
War will NEVER have existed on the new earth.
Where would the weapons come from to convert?

sovereigngrace · Oct 20, 2020

Marilyn C said:
Gog and Magog is the nation/s in the far north, the northern quarter of the earth. (Ez. 38: 1 & 15, Joel 2: 20)

The saints that Satan comes against are those who believe in God and obey Him. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

So your millennial earth is overrun by wicked Satanist? And there is a sizeable amount of righteous mortals. Where did they come from, by the way?

sovereigngrace · Oct 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
That doesn't address it at all. It's a lot of diatribe that does not address the issue of the OT prophets, envisioning a future age, where war USED to exist, but now peace reigns, and weapons are converted to tools of peace.
War will NEVER have existed on the new earth.
Where would the weapons come from to convert?

Yes it does. It exposes your fixation with a future millennium and it highlights how you have zero corroboration to support your theory. We are in the last days now, and these will end at Christ's one-and-only coming on the last day.

You therefore have to invent 2 “last days” periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this. This is theological gerrymandering to support false teaching.

Jamdoc · Oct 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Yes it does. It exposes your fixation with a future millennium and it highlights how you have zero corroboration to support your theory. We are in the last days now, and these will end at Christ's one-and-only coming on the last day.

You therefore have to invent 2 “last days” periods to allow Premil to fit. Mark 1 now, and Mark 2 after the second coming. Premils also invent 2 new heavens and new earths. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this. This is theological gerrymandering to support false teaching.

You still haven't addressed it dude.
The OT prophets talk about an place where war USED to exist, so there are weapons, but then peace reigns, so the weapons are converted to peaceful things.
The new earth will NEVER have that happen, because there will have never been war on it!
You have no way to deal with those scriptures so you shoot over the mark and go right back to your diatribe. Every time it's brought up, you do not address the scriptures that are inconvenient to you.
I didn't go into a bible having been taught ANYTHING about a millennium. I only picked up belief in a millennium AFTER reading the bible.
YOU on the other hand, got disappointed because the rapture wasn't in 2000, so you got disappointed and restructured your entire eschatology to avoid being disappointed again. I'm sorry that happened to you, but your eschatology should not be based on fear of disappointment.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
The difference is, if you believe that the 1st resurrection refers to 2000 years ago, and that we're all waiting for the 2nd resurrection, which resurrects everyone, and that happens as Jesus comes down from heaven, people get resurrected, as many unbelievers who have already died get resurrected, and then, instantly incinerated to die a second time, which would require another resurrection for them to stand judgement.
That's the part that is silly.

I don't believe that any dead unbelievers will get resurrected only to be killed again and then resurrected a second time to stand before judgment. I don't believe any unbelievers get killed twice. After reading the rest of your post, I realize now how you came to that conclusion that I believed that. I clarified my view for you at the end of this post.

See if it's only believers who are resurrected at the return of Christ, then it is no problem that the resurrection happens while Jesus is still in the air, before He's destroyed anything or anyone in His wrath. Nobody's subject to a second death there.
But if EVERYONE is resurrected while Jesus is returning and is still in the air, before any wrath has started, then they are subject to a second death, and then hell being the 3rd death.
If the first resurrection is an end times resurrection at the rapture of believers only, and the 2nd resurrection happens after the world has been purged by fire, and resurrects everyone (aside from those who'd already been resurrected in the rapture) , well then they can just stand judgement. Rather than be resurrected, killed, then have to be resurrected again to stand judgement.

Okay, after responding to your previous comments by asking what you were talking about (I have now removed those responses) I finally figured out what you've been talking about in terms of thinking I believe some people will get killed twice. Allow me to explain.

When I say that all people, believers and unbelievers, will be resurrected at the same time/hour (as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29), I don't mean at the exact same time with no time in between at all. What I really mean is that they both get resurrected at the same event, namely the second coming of Christ. When Christ descends from heaven at His return, the dead in Christ will be raised and changed (1 Cor 15:50-54) and then meet the Lord in the air. Fire will then come down upon the earth to destroy the wicked and even the earth itself (the surface of the earth, at least). Right after that (I don't know how long exactly since scripture doesn't say - probably not very long at all), all of the dead unbelievers (including those who were just killed) will be raised to stand before the great white throne. And, of course, as an amil I believe the saved will be there at the judgment as well (Matt 25:31-46).

Did all that make sense? Let me now if not. It never occurred to me that I would need to clarify the timing like this since I assume people would know that I meant that I believe they will be raised at the same general time even if not at the same exact time.

Jamdoc · Oct 20, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I don't believe that any dead unbelievers will get resurrected only to be killed again and then resurrected a second time to stand before judgment. I don't believe any unbelievers get killed twice. After reading the rest of your post, I realize now how you came to that conclusion that I believed that. I clarified my view for you at the end of this post.

Okay, after responding to your previous comments by asking what you were talking about (I have now removed those responses) I finally figured out what you've been talking about in terms of thinking I believe some people will get killed twice. Allow me to explain.

When I say that all people, believers and unbelievers, will be resurrected at the same time/hour (as Jesus taught in John 5:28-29), I don't mean at the exact same time with no time in between at all. What I really mean is that they both get resurrected at the same event, namely the second coming of Christ. When Christ descends from heaven at His return, the dead in Christ will be raised and changed (1 Cor 15:50-54) and then meet the Lord in the air. Fire will then come down upon the earth to destroy the wicked and even the earth itself (the surface of the earth, at least). Right after that (I don't know how long exactly since scripture doesn't say - probably not very long at all), all of the dead unbelievers (including those who were just killed) will be raised to stand before the great white throne. And, of course, as an amil I believe the saved will be there at the judgment as well (Matt 25:31-46).

Did all that make sense? Let me now if not. It never occurred to me that I would need to clarify the timing like this since I assume people would know that I meant that I believe they will be raised at the same general time even if not at the same exact time.

Well, that's clearer. But you're still making a peaks of prophecy mistake. You're assuming something shortly after, because you don't believe a time is given.
Well, there is a time given, 1000 years for one, and even if no specific time is given, it is an assumption you're making that it happens right away after.
We're talking about a God for whom time is basically meaningless. Where a week is prophetically 7 years, and a day can be a thousand years. The only time I take time to be litearl is when the time seems to be specific. IE I do not count "the day" or "the hour" to mean specifically 1 24 hour period (where you get literal and I consider it figurative) or a single 60 minute period, which I also consider figurative, but when a period of time like five months, or 3 days is given, I usually do interpret that literally. There is however some exceptions like Hosea 6 giving a prophecy of Israel being gathered together on the 2nd day after being scattered, and resurrected and taken to be with God on the 3rd day, which.. okay that didn't happen in 24 hour periods.. but it can be interpreted to happen as in between 1000-2000 years (Hebrew time reckoning always counts the day you're on as day 1) so 1948 regathered, and sometime after 2070 possibly the resurrection and living with God. But, I'm not 100% on that interpretation, just something I've heard for it.
So who knows, maybe the "Millennium" is a single 24 hour day since God flips around a day and 1000 years sometimes... but that's in reverse from how that time reckoning usually works, so I doubt it.
So I don't think it's good to assume everything happens within a single 24 hour day, because you make the same mistake that people in Jesus' time made in assuming that Jesus wasn't going to have a second coming and that He failed by dying. They thought the Messiah was supposed to fulfill everything at once.
So you're following their precedent of making a bad assumption that everything happens at once.

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2020

genez said:
ok... infant. An infant placed into eternity. No resurrection body? Just remains an infant forever?

You can not answer that. Not with a good answer, you can't.

.... infancy + eternity? = a retarded soul for all eternity!?

For, nothing ages in eternity. Nothing can grow old, nor age.

How long is that going to take to sink in? all eternity?

Please tell us how old will an infant appear to be in heaven, and give us the scripture to back up your
claim.

Then please tell us how many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

.

BABerean2 · Oct 20, 2020

genez said:
Keep in mind. Israel as a nation had disappeared in 70 AD, and reappeared on May 14, 1948!

Which of the two Israels found in Romans 11:1-5 are you talking about?

Are you talking about the faithful "remnant" in verse 5, or are you talking about the Baal worshipers?

How many times does Jacob Rothschild give God the credit for creating the modern State of Israel in the video below?

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

.

sovereigngrace · Oct 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Well, that's clearer. But you're still making a peaks of prophecy mistake. You're assuming something shortly after, because you don't believe a time is given.
Well, there is a time given, 1000 years for one, and even if no specific time is given, it is an assumption you're making that it happens right away after.
We're talking about a God for whom time is basically meaningless. Where a week is prophetically 7 years, and a day can be a thousand years. The only time I take time to be litearl is when the time seems to be specific. IE I do not count "the day" or "the hour" to mean specifically 1 24 hour period (where you get literal and I consider it figurative) or a single 60 minute period, which I also consider figurative, but when a period of time like five months, or 3 days is given, I usually do interpret that literally. There is however some exceptions like Hosea 6 giving a prophecy of Israel being gathered together on the 2nd day after being scattered, and resurrected and taken to be with God on the 3rd day, which.. okay that didn't happen in 24 hour periods.. but it can be interpreted to happen as in between 1000-2000 years (Hebrew time reckoning always counts the day you're on as day 1) so 1948 regathered, and sometime after 2070 possibly the resurrection and living with God. But, I'm not 100% on that interpretation, just something I've heard for it.
So who knows, maybe the "Millennium" is a single 24 hour day since God flips around a day and 1000 years sometimes... but that's in reverse from how that time reckoning usually works, so I doubt it.
So I don't think it's good to assume everything happens within a single 24 hour day, because you make the same mistake that people in Jesus' time made in assuming that Jesus wasn't going to have a second coming and that He failed by dying. They thought the Messiah was supposed to fulfill everything at once.
So you're following their precedent of making a bad assumption that everything happens at once.

It is very difficult taking lectures from Dispys about the literal straightforward rendering of any time period when tbey decapitate the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 by propeling the last 7 years into the unknown. This butchers the harmonious time-period and negates everything that was been said of the Messiah. This is terrible hermeneutics.

When Scripture says 7 days, 70 days, 70 weeks or 70 years it is proper to see this as sequential and congruent.

The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

All Becomes New · Oct 20, 2020

OP raises a legitimate question for me as a premillennial.

One explanation might be that upon Christ's return he glorifies our bodies, but not at the exclusion that sin is impossible in the millennial kingdom. As such, upon Gog and Magog being influenced by Satan when Satan is released from the bottomless pit, Satan tries to take as many souls with him as possible in that short time he is release from the bottomless pit but before the final judgement.

Hmm...

sovereigngrace · Oct 20, 2020

True Counterphobia said:
OP raises a legitimate question for me as a premillennial.

One explanation might be that upon Christ's return he glorifies our bodies, but not at the exclusion that sin is impossible in the millennial kingdom. As such, upon Gog and Magog being influenced by Satan when Satan is released from the bottomless pit, Satan tries to take as many souls with him as possible in that short time he is release from the bottomless pit but before the final judgement.

Hmm...

Thank you for your candor and willingness to look at this issue. It is hard to get Premils to go there.

What occurs to these mortal believers before the NHNE in your estimation?

All Becomes New · Oct 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
What occurs to these mortal believers before the NHNE in your estimation?

Which ones?

Oh. Do you mean the believers who are alive at Christ's return to usher in the millennial kingdom? I think they get glorified bodies. But as I said, that doesn't necessitate that sin is impossible during the 1,000 year reign. But I am no expert at this stuff.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 20, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Well, that's clearer. But you're still making a peaks of prophecy mistake. You're assuming something shortly after, because you don't believe a time is given.

What is wrong with that? Do you know how much time goes by between what occurs in Rev 20:9 and Rev 20:11-15? No. Would you assume it's shortly after? I would think so. So, would you be making a "prophecy mistake" then? I'm sure you would say no. So, to me the point your made here is...pointless.

Well, there is a time given, 1000 years for one, and even if no specific time is given, it is an assumption you're making that it happens right away after.

No, it is not an assumption at all. Where is your future thousand years found here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Where does your future thousand years fit in here:

Matthew 25:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

We're talking about a God for whom time is basically meaningless. Where a week is prophetically 7 years, and a day can be a thousand years.

So, with that being the case why does the thousand years have to be literal? Why can't it figuratively refer to a long period of time similar to how the weeks in Daniel are longer than literal weeks and instead each represent 7 years?

The only time I take time to be litearl is when the time seems to be specific.

The reference to weeks in Daniel is pretty specific. There is nothing there that specifically indicates that they represent 7 years. But, when it comes to the thousand years you somehow can't even allow for the possibility that it may not be literal. That's interesting.

IE I do not count "the day" or "the hour" to mean specifically 1 24 hour period (where you get literal and I consider it figurative) or a single 60 minute period, which I also consider figurative, but when a period of time like five months, or 3 days is given, I usually do interpret that literally.

It's pretty clear that we both sometimes interpret prophetic time periods literally and sometimes figuratively. Yet, for some reason, it's amils who get criticized for doing that. Very interesting.

So who knows, maybe the "Millennium" is a single 24 hour day since God flips around a day and 1000 years sometimes... but that's in reverse from how that time reckoning usually works, so I doubt it.

Do you think I believe the thousand years represents a single 24 hour day? If so, you are way off base. Have you never heard of amillennialism before? Amils believe that the thousand years figuratively represents the time period between Christ's first coming and shortly before His second coming (with Satan's little season in between). We believe Christ reigns in heaven now with the souls of the dead in Christ and also reigns in the hearts of His believers on the earth (see Eph 2:1-6, Rev 1:5-6).

So I don't think it's good to assume everything happens within a single 24 hour day, because you make the same mistake that people in Jesus' time made in assuming that Jesus wasn't going to have a second coming and that He failed by dying. They thought the Messiah was supposed to fulfill everything at once.

So you're following their precedent of making a bad assumption that everything happens at once.

I don't believe "everything" happens at once. To my amazement, it looks like you even think I believe the thousand years happens all at once (in one day). Not at all. I'm starting to realize now that you must not know anything about the amillennial view (at least not before this thread) because your focus is normally on the timing of the rapture and not the thousand years.

I do believe that scripture clearly teaches that the resurrection of all of the dead, the changing of our bodies (happens in the twinkling of an eye), our being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and the physical destruction of unbelievers all happen during the same event (Christ's second coming) at the same general time (a short time within each - the changing of our bodies happens almost instantly, so it shouldn't be hard to understand that these things will happen quickly). And I believe the judgment takes place right after that (John 12:48, Acts 17:30-31, Rom 14:10-12, Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15 all refer to judgment day - there is only one).

GenemZ · Oct 20, 2020

True Counterphobia said:
OP raises a legitimate question for me as a premillennial.

One explanation might be that upon Christ's return he glorifies our bodies, but not at the exclusion that sin is impossible in the millennial kingdom. As such, upon Gog and Magog being influenced by Satan when Satan is released from the bottomless pit, Satan tries to take as many souls with him as possible in that short time he is release from the bottomless pit but before the final judgement.

Hmm...

Amils do not understand what it means that God has called out the Church for His Bride. All other believers in history were not designated (chosen) by God to be the Bride of the Son.

John the Baptist confessed that he was a part of the "friend of the Groom' - not the Bride.
John died before the Church age began and did not enter into the Church age new creation in Christ.

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the
bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears
the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete." Jn 3:29

So we as the Church have to be an isolated group with our time in history for the gathering of His Bride. That is why we are resurrected before all the others.

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who
belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to
God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For
he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." 1 Cor 15:23-25

Notice? "Each in turn?" Each selected group of God's. The Church - we are to be needed to reign with Christ over the earth bound civilians which will take place during the Millennium. During that time the Lord Jesus has been designated as being God over all creation. As God he will make all the enemies to His Glorious humanity into His footstool.

First, that Footstool must completed and finished. Completed during the Millennium reign of Christ.

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who
belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom
to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." 1 Cor 15:23-25

Then, after the Millennium has served its purpose, we enter into a finalized area of eternal living in the next New Heavens and Earth - the Home of Righteousness. Just before that takes place, all dominion is to be then handed by the Son back to over the Father to be God over all.

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God
the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

Right now the Lord Jesus Christ has been granted by the Father to be God over all creation. In a sense...The Father has gone on vacation and handed the farm over to His Son to run everything as God and to clean up all the vermin and threats to his flocks. To eliminate them forever. To God's glory it is done! Amen.

Jamdoc · Oct 20, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is very difficult taking lectures from Dispys about the literal straightforward rendering of any time period when tbey decapitate the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 by propeling the last 7 years into the unknown. This butchers the harmonious time-period and negates everything that was been said of the Messiah. This is terrible hermeneutics.

When Scripture says 7 days, 70 days, 70 weeks or 70 years is proper to see this as sequential and congruent.

The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

I'm not a dispy, preterist.

Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

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