Surely be put to death.

[Buccaneer]

First, let me start that this is something that just entered my mind and while I do not intend it to be a debate, I have a feeling it would just end up being moved here anyway.
My question is for those who are torah die-hards, why not keep the judgements of transgressing the torah?

Hitting your parents -- Ex. 21:15
Kidnapping -- Ex 21:16
Cursing your father or mother -- Ex 21:17
Killing an unborn infant -- Ex 21:22-25
Witchcraft -- Ex. 22:18
Worship of other gods/goddesses -- Ex. 22:20
Working on the Sabbath -- Ex. 35:2
Adultery -- Lev. 20:10
Incest -- Lev. 20:11-12 & 14
Sodomy (homosexuality/lesbianism) -- Lev. 20:13
Bestiality -- Lev. 20:15-16
False prophesying -- Deut. 13:1-10
Rape under some circumstances -- Deut. 22:25
Just to name a few

I bolded the ones I felt were common enough and yet not as 'wrong' in societies eyes. (which are in ours)
Surely someone here has a son of reletive or even themselves who has broken one of these things and no one is put to death. I am aware that the laws in America forbid this, but even still, God's law must overpower. What of nations like Israel who (unless im wrong) are more connected with the almighty. They can conform their laws to fit Moses' law. Again I dont mean to stir trouble, but it just seemed to me, that if you keep the commandments, you will keep the consequences for violating them.
To disregard one aspect of torah, is to deregard all of it.

 

[Sephania]

ARe you speaking of believers breaking the Torah or unbelievers? For we are not to judge unbelievers, that is left to G-d. As believers we are told what to do if a fellow believer sins and how to restore him to G-d and the congregation. These are new covenant teachings, are you familiar with them?

 

[Buccaneer]

Im talking about they who live breathe and eat torah. they who reject to eat swine and condemn work on the sabbath and abide to every aspect of the mosaic law. even the non-messianic jews. Why do they fail to no longer carry out the mosaic punishments that are the affect of the cause of violating any given law.

 

[iitb]

Moved to the main MJ forum. If you really must know why, PM me.

 

[Henaynei]

I'm talking about they who live breathe and eat torah. they who reject to eat swine and condemn work on the Sabbath and abide to every aspect of the mosaic law. even the non-messianic Jews. Why do they fail to no longer carry out the mosaic punishments that are the affect of the cause of violating any given law.

Dear Buccaneer,

Your post is disappointingly argumentative

I believe that you would agree, if you went back and reviewed the numerous threads that include the discussions to which you allude, that almost no one (I'd say no one as I can recall none but allow for the stray poster ) in this forum has ever rejected or condemned any one for their views contrary to Torah observance. Any responses that were harsh were rather aimed at the way dissenters rebutted, not for the rebuttal in and of itself. That said....

It is well known in Judaism that no child has EVER been stoned in accordance to the Torah instruction. Also, the Jewish people, having been the uneasy and often unwelcome and always un-understood residents in guest countries, have been restrained from applying certain of the Torah instructions due to laws and circumstances in those guest countries that prohibit such actions.

This brings us to Israel today - which is by and large a G-dless and secular country and whose religious members are more often that not despised by the secular majority. They are currently restrained from full obedience to Torah even by the current laws of Israel.

One could easily ask of Christians - why do you eat meat of strangled animals when in Acts 15 & 21 you are clearly forbidden from doing so... or of Christians of the British Isles and other places why they eat blood pudding and the like when that is also clearly forbidden in Acts......

NO ONE keeps the instructions of G-d, no matter what you or I may perceive them to be, perfectly. And NO TRUE believer - Christian or Messianic - would predicate their salvation on any effort to attain any level of obedience. Rather, whether it is you in your understanding of what G-d asks of you, or me in my understanding of what G-d instructs me, we BOTH strive to obey BECAUSE we LOVE Him, no?? It is our "reasonable service."

In addition, from the beginning, Mercy has always been the higher calling.....

 

[ShirChadash]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Henaynei again."

Oh well, fine then I'll just post my thoughts here. ^ Excellently said, Henny, and ITA!!

 

[Buccaneer]

I did not mean children i mean like one's son who is accountable for his actions. It was just a simple inquiry that I had because I always hear about obeying the law (which I am totally for), but double standards or covenient or partial abidance is just bothers me. Im not criticizing because this is the whole purpose of Messiah. To cover us in our weak areas of the law.

 

[Henaynei]

I did not mean children i mean like one's son who is accountable for his actions. It was just a simple inquiry that I had because I always hear about obeying the law (which I am totally for), but double standards or covenient or partial abidance is just bothers me. Im not criticizing because this is the whole purpose of Messiah. To cover us in our weak areas of the law.

When Israel was a sovergein theocracy, even during some of it's history of monarchy, the "penalities" were meeted out.

Today's Israel is overwhelmingly secular. This includes her courts and legislature and laws. Even the Sabbath Law has been successfully repealed in places like Tel Aviv and Haifa.

There may be isolated Jewish communities where some of the penalties are carried out, such as being "cut off from Israel" for certain infractions, but the death penalty is forbidden to be carried out in all modern countries unless mandated by the secular court.

I am sure you can very clearly see that for the death penality to be prosecuted by the local Jewish community would endanger the lives of not only the Jews in that community but even the lives of Jews around the world in some palces. The rabbis have oft quoted a teaching of Torah thus:"'You shall live by Torah' not die by Torah." This means that you are not obligated to obey certain of the Torah instructions IF doing so will endanger your life or the life of another.

 

[simchat_torah]

Stoning, for example, is not a mitzvah (commandment). It is a consequence for breaking a mitzvah.


We keep the mitzvot (commandments) but the consequences are currently suspended by mercy (Y'shua).

shalom,
yafet

 

[visionary]

It it not the Lord's duty to met out the punishment? It is our to keep the law. We are the not judges for now. We will be given judgement later. But now we are to learn and keep the Torah to the best of our ability.

 

[Henaynei]

It it not the Lord's duty to met out the punishment? It is our to keep the law. We are the not judges for now. We will be given judgement later. But now we are to learn and keep the Torah to the best of our ability.

The L-rd does give us clear instruction on the punishment for many civil infractions - it is on these instructions that the laws of the Consititution are based and your state and local laws.

No G-d did not say "just leave it all to me.... don't dirty your hands..." He tolds to kill the murderer and the rapist..... he told us the penalty for theft and others.... and He ordained that we have men whose job it was to see that these penalties are meeted out to protect and nurture a healthy community. To the extent that these penalties have been exchanged for "kinder, wiser, more humane, gentler" penalties, society has suffered inoperable cancer......

 

[visionary]

The L-rd does give us clear instruction on the punishment for many civil infractions - it is on these instructions that the laws of the Consititution are based and your state and local laws.

No G-d did not say "just leave it all to me.... don't dirty your hands..." He tolds to kill the murderer and the rapist..... he told us the penalty for theft and others.... and He ordained that we have men whose job it was to see that these penalties are meeted out to protect and nurture a healthy community. To the extent that these penalties have been exchanged for "kinder, wiser, more humane, gentler" penalties, society has suffered inoperable cancer......

As civil penalties of the land pertain to the following of divine, or not following of the divine instructions, so also are the results.

As far as the religious penalties performed in today's society, or not performed as directed by the laws of the land, so we must wait until the Ruler of the Torah again takes the seat and rules from the Throne. We will have to wait until His Kingdom come.

You are one wise woman Henny!!!
Visionary