Supreme Court stays lower court ruling, allowing Trump transgender ban to proceed

[BCP1928]

That's not entirely true...

So if we unpack it by looking at transgender individual (both without, and with affirming care), and look at the prevalence of certain mental health situations

Per the NIH, without affirming care:

• Anxiety disorders: Around 40-60% of transgender individuals report experiencing anxiety, compared to about 14% of the general U.S. adult population.
• Depression: Around 30-50% of transgender people have been diagnosed with or experienced major depressive episodes, versus 7-10% in the general population.
• Suicidal ideation: About 40% of transgender adults report having attempted suicide at some point in their lives, compared to roughly 4.6% in the general U.S. population.

With affirming care (per JAMA, 2023 American Journal of Psychiatry, and the NIH)

Condition​	General Population​	Trans people with affirming care​
Depression (past year prevalence)​	~7–10%​	~19–31%​
Anxiety disorders​	~14%​	~28–32%​
Suicidal ideation​	~4.6%​	~22–28%​

So even for people who've received, what is currently considered the best treatment option available, by the advocates, we're still talking about
Triple the rates of depression
Double the rates of anxiety disorders
5x the rate of suicidal ideation

That is a cause for concern...

Not to mention, those things, as stand-alone diagnoses, can be disqualifying measures on their own in many cases.

Condition​	Generally Disqualifying?​	Waiver Possible?​
Anxiety disorders​	Yes — if current or recent, or if it required medication/therapy. Some isolated, resolved cases may be waiverable.​	Sometimes, if mild, well-documented as resolved, and no current symptoms.​
Depressive disorders​	Yes — especially if there’s a history of major depressive disorder, multiple episodes, hospitalization, or recent symptoms.​	Sometimes, for mild, situational, well-resolved cases with good documentation.​
Suicidal ideation or attempts​	Yes — a history of suicidal thoughts or behaviors is typically a hard disqualifier.​	Very rarely, and only in exceptional, historic, well-treated, and documented cases, usually with strong medical endorsements.​

And, of course, none of those unfavorable outcomes has anything to do with social discrimination and disapproval.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And, of course, none of those unfavorable outcomes has anything to do with social discrimination and disapproval.

1) just because something overlaps with some sort of social disapproval, that doesn't negate the risk factors.

For example, there are restrictions prohibiting epileptics from being commercial airline pilots. If some people who supported that policy also happened to be people who made some bigoted or mean-spirited comments about people with epilepsy, that doesn't negate any and all reasons for the policy, nor would that be justification for waiving the policy.


2) Even in affirming supportive environments, the rates are still higher.

Condition​	General Population​	Trans individuals receiving care in affirming environments​
Depression (past year)​	~7-10%​	~18-25%​
Anxiety (past year)​	~14%​	~25-30%​
Suicidal ideation (lifetime)​	~4.6%​	~20-25%​

(More specific metric courtesy of The Trevor Project)

If you notice after a person receives affirming care, the environmental factor of "affirming vs. non-affirming environment" only seems to bring down the rates marginally. (the anxiety rate dropping from 32% down to 30%, and suicidal ideation dropping from 22% to 20%, resulting from a supportive ecosystem for a post-treatment person isn't exactly "game changer" numbers)


So even in a case where a person receives the affirming procedures and hormones, has a social circle that's 100% accepting, and lives in a progressive environment/local, some factors still persist.

A 2021 study in JAMA Surgery found the following:
while three quarters of post-treatment patients reported some improvement in quality of life, about 15-20% expressed lingering dissatisfaction related to physical outcomes.

Unrealistic or idealized expectations: Some people may imagine transition as a total resolution to all dysphoria, social struggles, or mental health challenges — when in reality, while it can greatly reduce gender dysphoria, it doesn't eliminate life’s other difficulties.

Not all physical transition outcomes (like surgeries, hormone effects, voice training) turn out exactly as hoped — due to individual biology.

For a portion of people, gender identity and how it’s embodied may continue to evolve post-transition in ways they didn’t expect, which can be disorienting.

 

[BCP1928]

1) just because something overlaps with some sort of social disapproval, that doesn't negate the risk factors.

For example, there are restrictions prohibiting epileptics from being commercial airline pilots. If some people who supported that policy also happened to be people who made some bigoted or mean-spirited comments about people with epilepsy, that doesn't negate any and all reasons for the policy, nor would that be justification for waiving the policy.


2) Even in affirming supportive environments, the rates are still higher.

Condition​	General Population​	Trans individuals receiving care in affirming environments​
Depression (past year)​	~7-10%​	~18-25%​
Anxiety (past year)​	~14%​	~25-30%​
Suicidal ideation (lifetime)​	~4.6%​	~20-25%​

(More specific metric courtesy of The Trevor Project)

If you notice after a person receives affirming care, the environmental factor of "affirming vs. non-affirming environment" only seems to bring down the rates marginally. (the anxiety rate dropping from 32% down to 30%, and suicidal ideation dropping from 22% to 20%, resulting from a supportive ecosystem for a post-treatment person isn't exactly "game changer" numbers)


So even in a case where a person receives the affirming procedures and hormones, has a social circle that's 100% accepting, and lives in a progressive environment/local, some factors still persist.

A 2021 study in JAMA Surgery found the following:
while three quarters of post-treatment patients reported some improvement in quality of life, about 15-20% expressed lingering dissatisfaction related to physical outcomes.

Unrealistic or idealized expectations: Some people may imagine transition as a total resolution to all dysphoria, social struggles, or mental health challenges — when in reality, while it can greatly reduce gender dysphoria, it doesn't eliminate life’s other difficulties.

Not all physical transition outcomes (like surgeries, hormone effects, voice training) turn out exactly as hoped — due to individual biology.

For a portion of people, gender identity and how it’s embodied may continue to evolve post-transition in ways they didn’t expect, which can be disorienting.

1) just because something overlaps with some sort of social disapproval, that doesn't negate the risk factors.

For example, there are restrictions prohibiting epileptics from being commercial airline pilots. If some people who supported that policy also happened to be people who made some bigoted or mean-spirited comments about people with epilepsy, that doesn't negate any and all reasons for the policy, nor would that be justification for waiving the policy.


2) Even in affirming supportive environments, the rates are still higher.

Condition​	General Population​	Trans individuals receiving care in affirming environments​
Depression (past year)​	~7-10%​	~18-25%​
Anxiety (past year)​	~14%​	~25-30%​
Suicidal ideation (lifetime)​	~4.6%​	~20-25%​

(More specific metric courtesy of The Trevor Project)

If you notice after a person receives affirming care, the environmental factor of "affirming vs. non-affirming environment" only seems to bring down the rates marginally. (the anxiety rate dropping from 32% down to 30%, and suicidal ideation dropping from 22% to 20%, resulting from a supportive ecosystem for a post-treatment person isn't exactly "game changer" numbers)

What affect does discrimination and bullying have on epilepsy?

So even in a case where a person receives the affirming procedures and hormones, has a social circle that's 100% accepting, and lives in a progressive environment/local, some factors still persist.

A 2021 study in JAMA Surgery found the following:
while three quarters of post-treatment patients reported some improvement in quality of life, about 15-20% expressed lingering dissatisfaction related to physical outcomes.

Unrealistic or idealized expectations: Some people may imagine transition as a total resolution to all dysphoria, social struggles, or mental health challenges — when in reality, while it can greatly reduce gender dysphoria, it doesn't eliminate life’s other difficulties.

Not all physical transition outcomes (like surgeries, hormone effects, voice training) turn out exactly as hoped — due to individual biology.

For a portion of people, gender identity and how it’s embodied may continue to evolve post-transition in ways they didn’t expect, which can be disorienting.

That doesn't really control all the variables, but never mind. As a practical matter, any person who requires exceptional supportive care is unfit for military service. There is no moral issue at stake.

 

[DaisyDay]

That's not entirely true...

So if we unpack it by looking at transgender individual (both without, and with affirming care), and look at the prevalence of certain mental health situations

Per the NIH, without affirming care:

• Anxiety disorders: Around 40-60% of transgender individuals report experiencing anxiety, compared to about 14% of the general U.S. adult population.
• Depression: Around 30-50% of transgender people have been diagnosed with or experienced major depressive episodes, versus 7-10% in the general population.
• Suicidal ideation: About 40% of transgender adults report having attempted suicide at some point in their lives, compared to roughly 4.6% in the general U.S. population.

With affirming care (per JAMA, 2023 American Journal of Psychiatry, and the NIH)

Condition​	General Population​	Trans people with affirming care​
Depression (past year prevalence)​	~7–10%​	~19–31%​
Anxiety disorders​	~14%​	~28–32%​
Suicidal ideation​	~4.6%​	~22–28%​

So even for people who've received, what is currently considered the best treatment option available, by the advocates, we're still talking about
Triple the rates of depression
Double the rates of anxiety disorders
5x the rate of suicidal ideation

That is a cause for concern...

Not to mention, those things, as stand-alone diagnoses, can be disqualifying measures on their own in many cases.

Condition​	Generally Disqualifying?​	Waiver Possible?​
Anxiety disorders​	Yes — if current or recent, or if it required medication/therapy. Some isolated, resolved cases may be waiverable.​	Sometimes, if mild, well-documented as resolved, and no current symptoms.​
Depressive disorders​	Yes — especially if there’s a history of major depressive disorder, multiple episodes, hospitalization, or recent symptoms.​	Sometimes, for mild, situational, well-resolved cases with good documentation.​
Suicidal ideation or attempts​	Yes — a history of suicidal thoughts or behaviors is typically a hard disqualifier.​	Very rarely, and only in exceptional, historic, well-treated, and documented cases, usually with strong medical endorsements.​

As much as all this might be true, firing transgendered people simply and solely because they are trans and not because of any other factor that has actually affected their performance adversely is pure bigotry and discrimination.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

As much as all this might be true, firing transgendered people simply and solely because they are trans and not because of any other factor that has actually affected their performance adversely is pure bigotry and discrimination.

If a person was diagnosed with or developed a condition (4 years into a stellar career as a pilot) that required medication (that could cause an increased risk of certain things like fainting, seizures, or rapid drop in blood pressure), they would be let go, even if they hadn't actually experienced one of those those effects yet.

It would be a precautionary thing...


So while there could've been some sort of mean spirited reasoning behind it, it doesn't negate the fact that it's undoing a carveout that probably shouldn't have been created in the first place.

If someone has a condition that, even with proper treatment, still has noteworthy increased risks of anxiety, depression, and suicidality, then precautionary measures are still warranted, even if one doesn't like the motivations behind one person's rationale for implementing them.

 

[RileyG]

And, of course, none of those unfavorable outcomes has anything to do with social discrimination and disapproval.

Correlation does not equal causation- and just because someone does not approve of someone's lifestyle choice, it doesn't make it "discrimination."

 

[RileyG]

As much as all this might be true, firing transgendered people simply and solely because they are trans and not because of any other factor that has actually affected their performance adversely is pure bigotry and discrimination.

Some people aren't comfortable with it, or find that their condition may affect their job performance. It doesn't automatically make it bigotry or discrimination. Some people just believe in so-called "traditional gender roles" or are too old fashioned.

 

[NxNW]

IMO, what is wasteful spending is doing sex change operations on those with gender dysphoria and paid for with taxpayers dollars.

That's not happening in the US, outside of Republican fantasies.

 

[RileyG]

That's not happening in the US, outside of Republican fantasies.

Reality says otherwise.

 

[NxNW]

Reality says otherwise.

I just explained reality to you. The GOP likes to complain about things that aren't real.

 

[RileyG]

I just explained reality to you. The GOP likes to complain about things that aren't real.

This isn't about pizza gate and that is irrelevant. And no, not every person in the GOP believed in it. Good grief.

 

[NxNW]

This isn't about pizza gate and that is irrelevant. And no, not every person in the GOP believed in it. Good grief.

Pizza gate is just as real as what you're claiming. Which is to say, not real at all. Trump's claiming that children are given sex change operations at school, which is what got the entire GOP in a tizzy. It was a lie, of course. It never happened.

 

[RileyG]

Pizza gate is just as real as what you're claiming. Which is to say, not real at all. Trump's claiming that children are given sex change operations at school, which is what got the entire GOP in a tizzy. It was a lie, of course. It never happened.

Again, not related to the OP.

 

[DaisyDay]

Some people aren't comfortable with it, or find that their condition may affect their job performance. It doesn't automatically make it bigotry or discrimination. Some people just believe in so-called "traditional gender roles" or are too old fashioned.

The order for mass firings of all transgendered people without regard to their job performance does make it bigotry and discrimination.

 

[RileyG]

The order for mass firings of all transgendered people without regard to their job performance does make it bigotry and discrimination.

Trump just isn’t comfortable with them. Rather old fashioned, I say. Consider his age, for one. It’s only become trendy in recent times.

 

[DaisyDay]

Trump just isn’t comfortable with them. Rather old fashioned, I say. Consider his age, for one. It’s only become trendy in recent times.

So? His discomfort - assuming discomfort rather than pandering - has cost people their livelihoods and careers. How is putting his own personal discomfort over actual job performance anything other than bigotry and discrimination? Particularly as he never even has to interact with them.

As for his age, he attended the NYC party scene in its heyday.

He has also expressed discomfort with seeing or being around visibly wounded soldiers and veterans to the point of not wanting them to be honored in his parades and “patriotic” celebrations.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes, Rob is making reasonable arguments for excluding some trans people from military service. He has not made any reasonable arguments for excluding all trans people from military service.

 

[RileyG]

So? His discomfort - assuming discomfort rather than pandering - has cost people their livelihoods and careers. How is putting his own personal discomfort over actual job performance anything other than bigotry and discrimination? Particularly as he never even has to interact with them.

As for his age, he attended the NYC party scene in its heyday.

He has also expressed discomfort with seeing or being around visibly wounded soldiers and veterans to the point of not wanting them to be honored in his parades and “patriotic” celebrations.

How would you know if he never interacted with them?

 

[DaisyDay]

How would you know if he never interacted with them?

I didn't say he never did; I said he didn't have to now. He pretty much controls who he sees nowadays.

Do you think that mere discomfort with someone being transgendered is a sufficient reason to fire all of them?

 

[RileyG]

I didn't say he never did; I said he didn't have to now. He pretty much controls who he sees nowadays.

Do you think that mere discomfort with someone being transgendered is a sufficient reason to fire all of them?

No.