Supreme Court Sides with Trans Girl

[Belk]

As long as a Transgender female has male testosterone going into the body, at any point of their life. It's unfair in women's sports. No, we shouldn't leave the facts that transgender females. Are male bodies, with a female mind. It's unfair to real females. That didn't hame male testosterone in their body.

There is no such thing as "male testosterone". It is the exact some hormone produced by men and women. It simply occurs in higher levels in men. If you outlaw anyone in female sports having testosterone you are outlawing women sports.

 

[A2SG]

It doesn't matter. If Transgender female has ever had male testosterone or male parts.They shouldn't be allowed in women sports competitions. Their body is still male on the inside.

If the amount of testosterone one has doesn't affect how the game is played, why should it be a factor? I'll bet Bobby Riggs had more testosterone than Billie Jean King, but she still won.

-- A2SG, maybe there are other factors beyond amount of testosterone to consider.....

 

[A2SG]

It sounds to me like you're advocating the complete elimination of women's sports.

Not advocating anything of the sort. I'm just wondering if there are factors other than sex we should be considering when deciding who should and who shouldn't be allowed to compete in certain sports.

-- A2SG, could Michael Cera beat Ronda Rousey at candlepin bowling?

 

[Ana the Ist]

When did she say that?

I don't recall if it was during an interview or perhaps just in her twitter timeline.

....and after looking for it, the closest thing I can find is her saying she couldn't compete against the top men...how someone like Federer is simply too fast, strong, etc. It's a whole other game.

So while I might be remembering her wrong or thinking of someone else's comments at the time of the spat between Williams and McEnroe....luckily, we don't have to wonder or question if I'm correct.

In 1998 when her sister Venus was top 5 and she was ranked 20 (so admittedly they hadn't reached the peak of their ability) they were in Australia and foolishly said they could beat any man ranked around 200th. That in of itself is a bit of an admission they can't compete with the top men....but still a bit insulting to a guy ranked 200th. The guy at the time ranked 203, who I've never heard of, who never ranked higher than 40th, spoke up and said he'd take that challenge.

The next day, he played a round of golf, and then smoked Venus and Serena Williams back to back....while drinking beer and smoking cigarettes.

I can understand why a woman who never competed against a man at the top of her game may not understand the difference. I can understand why people who never played competitive sports or don't ever follow any sports might imagine there's a possibility of women competing against men at the highest level of some sport....but I can't think of any.

If you look down the records of who broke what record and pooled all male and female competitors together....there's no women at the top of anything that men compete in.

The women's world cup winners....the best female soccer players in the world....lost to a team of teenage boys. I'm talking about 15yo guys....versus the best women in the sport at that time. I think it was a high school boys team. You can watch it yourself, the women aren't going easy....they're trying hard to avoid embarrassing themselves. There's no point in allowing biological men to compete against women.


Now....if that's unfair to trans people who genuinely want to be able to participate in sports, I'd agree, and I think they should be allowed to compete against men. That way we need not worry about ftm testosterone levels or if mtf have all the advantages of male puberty. They can still compete and if they manage to win....nobody will question the fairness or validity of their victory.

 

[Yttrium]

Not advocating anything of the sort. I'm just wondering if there are factors other than sex we should be considering when deciding who should and who shouldn't be allowed to compete in certain sports.

Sometimes there are. There are different weight classes in some sports, like wrestling and boxing. We can deal with that kind of thing on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn't mind seeing height classes in basketball. But on average a male physique definitely gives a big performance advantage in most sports, one that would be unfair to the women contestants.

If you ignore sex considerations, there's no point in having women's sports. And that to me would be unacceptable.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Which shows that sex isn't always the most significant difference when competing in sports.

Right...I suppose if we set up top female athletes against quadriplegic male athletes....the lack of functional arms and legs would be a bigger factor.

I don't see how that matters though.

Maybe we should forget sex as a difference in competition, and use age instead? Or something else more relevant to the specific competition?

If sex doesn't matter...why not have all trans people compete against the men?

That seems to solve the issue easily.

Michael Cera is two years younger than Ronda Rousey. So they're just about equal then?

You're picking a non-athlete....for a reason. I also think you're picking Rousey because you don't really follow mma....

Am I wrong?

Or maybe there are many other differences we should consider when deciding who should compete against whom?

Chess? Maybe curling? I'll be honest, even if it's a matter of eye-hand coordination or strategy it seems men have an advantage but perhaps not an insurmountable one.

I'm not saying sex isn't an issue in some cases, just that it might not be one in ALL cases.

Right...I get what you're saying. In that one case...we should see a female record holder that beat all the men even if only for awhile.

Maybe we shouldn't worry about sex so much, and concentrate on relevant differences when considering who should be able to compete in certain sports.

-- A2SG, wondering how much of this comes from some men not wanting to lose to a woman in sports.....

Well that's certainly a part of it.....the other part is no one would celebrate a man beating a woman. It's lose -lose for men.

 

[A2SG]

Right...I suppose if we set up top female athletes against quadriplegic male athletes....the lack of functional arms and legs would be a bigger factor.

I don't see how that matters though.

Just saying sex ALONE isn't always the most significant difference between athletes.

Just because there are differences between the average man and the average woman, that doesn't mean the same differences apply to every man and every woman.

If sex doesn't matter...why not have all trans people compete against the men?

That seems to solve the issue easily.

I didn't say sex NEVER mattered, only that it doesn't ALWAYS matter.

And I, personally, wouldn't have a problem with trans people competing, but I recognize not everyone agrees.

You're picking a non-athlete....for a reason. I also think you're picking Rousey because you don't really follow mma....

Am I wrong?

I picked the weakest male celebrity I could think of to compare to the strongest woman I could think of. There may be better examples out there, but those were the ones I came up with.

Just to show that not everyone is average. In fact, statistically, most can't be.

Chess? Maybe curling? I'll be honest, even if it's a matter of eye-hand coordination or strategy it seems men have an advantage but perhaps not an insurmountable one.

My wife consistently beats me soundly whenever we play video games. On the other hand, I pretty much always win at Scrabble.

Right...I get what you're saying. In that one case...we should see a female record holder that beat all the men even if only for awhile.

I'm just saying that, if a woman is strong enough, or athletic enough that she'd be able to compete on a par with men, I see no reason not to allow her to.

Well that's certainly a part of it.....the other part is no one would celebrate a man beating a woman. It's lose -lose for men.

If it's a fair competition, it shouldn't be a problem.

-- A2SG, but you are right, double standards do exist......

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just saying sex ALONE isn't always the most significant difference between athletes.

Just because there are differences between the average man and the average woman, that doesn't mean the same differences apply to every man and every woman.

I'm pretty sure I conceded this point with my quadriplegic example above. Use of one's arms and legs is a bigger factor.

I didn't say sex NEVER mattered, only that it doesn't ALWAYS matter.

And I agreed.

And I, personally, wouldn't have a problem with trans people competing, but I recognize not everyone agrees.

Ok.

I picked the weakest male celebrity I could think of to compare to the strongest woman I could think of. There may be better examples out there, but those were the ones I came up with.

Yeah but why pick a weak male and a female athlete as an example of competition in sports?

Just to show that not everyone is average. In fact, statistically, most can't be.

And when we speak about top level athletes.....non are. They're all well above average.

My wife consistently beats me soundly whenever we play video games. On the other hand, I pretty much always win at Scrabble.

Right...yet you can look at any Esports league and count the number of top female competitors on one hand....you probably have fingers left over.

I'm just saying that, if a woman is strong enough, or athletic enough that she'd be able to compete on a par with men, I see no reason not to allow her to.

Ok....lemme know when that finally happens.

If it's a fair competition, it shouldn't be a problem.

-- A2SG, but you are right, double standards do exist......

I agree. If it were fair.....it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[A2SG]

Yeah but why pick a weak male and a female athlete as an example of competition in sports?

To illustrate that averages don't apply to individuals.

And when we speak about top level athletes.....non are. They're all well above average.

For athletics, sure. But they may fall differently when other factors are considered. I wonder if Michael Cera would beat Ronda Rousey at chess. Or checkers. Or Texas hold'em poker.

Right...yet you can look at any Esports league and count the number of top female competitors on one hand....you probably have fingers left over.

And women consistently beat men at dressage, and often fare better at diving and swimming.

Ok....lemme know when that finally happens.

It did. In 1973. (That there were differences between the two competitors beyond sex that factored in kinda proves my point.)

It still happens in some olympic events, like equestrian and swimming. Billards, too.


-- A2SG, sex isn't always an issue......